Are We Our Own Worst Enemy?

[BRICKBURN]

I could not help myself.....
(the conditions of the Moderator Auction may have just been changed)

 

[AfricaHunting.com]

Not to be argumentative...but the free market is adept at setting price within the constraints of supply and demand..not morals!

You don't believe that we vote with our money? As hunters we choose where to hunt based upon our own values.

 

[AfricaHunting.com]

View attachment 222170

Victoria's Secrets models please!

 

[Scott Slough]

You don't believe that we vote with our money? As hunters we choose where to hunt based upon our own values.

Now you are just mixing metaphors. In a democratic vote...one person...one vote. A perfectly reasonable way to resolve a moral issue. If I am unhappy with the vote...I can work to change the vote (while following the outcome of the vote). Thus the system is equitable...you and I have an equal say.

The free market is desidly NOT equitable....just because some individuals have more money...in my nonargumentative opinion...they don't get to set the morals for the whole...and certainly not me.

In the free market system...the Chinese pay millions for ivory, rhino horn, lion bones, etc. If they pay enough should that make the practice OK?

 

[Hogpatrol]

Now you are just mixing metaphors. In a democratic vote...one person...one vote. A perfectly reasonable way to resolve a moral issue. If I am unhappy with the vote...I can work to change the vote (while following the outcome of the vote). Thus the system is equitable...you and I have an equal say.

The free market is desidly NOT equitable....just because some individuals have more money...in my nonargumentative opinion...they don't get to set the morals for the whole...and certainly not me.

In the free market system...the Chinese pay millions for ivory, rhino horn, lion bones, etc. If they pay enough should that make the practice OK?

I thought we were talking about the LEGAL hunting free market, not the illegal ivory,etc. one.

 

[Scott Slough]

I thought we were talking about the LEGAL hunting free market, not the illegal ivory,etc. one.

Used as an example.

 

[Scott Slough]

Used as an example.

Used as an example rather than CBL.

 

[Pheroze]

Now you are just mixing metaphors. In a democratic vote...one person...one vote. A perfectly reasonable way to resolve a moral issue. If I am unhappy with the vote...I can work to change the vote (while following the outcome of the vote). Thus the system is equitable...you and I have an equal say.

The free market is desidly NOT equitable....just because some individuals have more money...in my nonargumentative opinion...they don't get to set the morals for the whole...and certainly not me.

In the free market system...the Chinese pay millions for ivory, rhino horn, lion bones, etc. If they pay enough should that make the practice OK?

I have to agree. Money pays for all sorts of horrors. I think we do have to draw lines and define the activity. And, we have to be assertive about who we are or we will continue to constantly lose the PR war.

 

[Philip Glass]

I posted this on Facebook recently, after getting sick and tired of all the bickering about whats right and what not... Thought you guys may also weigh in on my opinion.


Recently, a lot of flack has been slung back and forth between different countries’ outfitters, PH’s and even hunting clients. Our Namibian guys try and downplay the South African outfitters smaller (on average) game farms, their hunting of captive bred lions, and breeding of game animals for larger horn size or different colours. The South Africans normally retaliate with the fact that a lot of bred game are sold across the border to Namibia, that Namibia is a dry country thus the farms have to be bigger, and recently they even try to make the suggested ethics training of Namibia’s MET off as a point against Namibian hunting.

As a Namibian with interests in both countries, my two cents:
All this does, is create divide amongst like minded people. And like it or not, we are playing right into the hands of the anti-hunting brigade by doing this. I understand that everyone is under pressure to try and promote their business, and one of the most effective ways is to distinguish it from your competitors. But, this should never be done by slandering someone else’s way of doing business.
Just remember, the anti-hunting people really does not care HOW we hunt wild game, they are only concerned by the fact that we actually kill it, and by the perception that we may even enjoy it. So, by criticising someone else’s way of earning a living, we are playing right into their hands. Who are we to decide who should enjoy hunting, and how?
I personally have no problem with outfitters that breed game, restock game, hunt captive bred animals, hunt on smaller farms, etc. Whatever you need to do to make your piece of land profitable and accessible for hunting, hell, do it! (As long as it’s within the law.) There is a market for all these ways of hunting, and all these animals, so feed the market, get more land under conservation, and most of all, stand together to form a united front against the ant hunting onslaught.

Are there problems? Hell, YES! But I think most of these can be traced to simple lying to clients. The moment you have to revert to lying to sell your product (a hunting safari), you are part of the problem, just like the individuals that revert to name calling and trying to badmouth another person’s way of earning a living.
The moment you sell your dropped off game, as “born on the property”, the moment you start calling a game farm “a concession”, the moment you start calling lions on a 5000 acre area “free roaming”, the moment you start restocking your 1000 acre property just before the next hunters arrive, the moment you start telling clients that to shoot a captive bred lion is “better” than a wild lion, the moment you tell a client that a buffalo bull out of a breeding project is “the same thing” as hunting a truly wild animal, the moment you have to revert to shooting drugged animals, you are part of our problem. Please note, all above are examples of lies being told to clients.

Please note, I am not necessarily against the practice of captive bred lion hunting, or hunting on smaller properties, or shooting bred up animals. I am just against the lying associated with this.If the client KNOWS this, and he or she has no problem with it, and it is a legal activity, by all means you have my blessing. It may not be how I choose to hunt, but I will not criticize you for doing it. (I personally have an issue with the color variants though, but that's a personal thing. I would still not criticize anyone doing it if this means more land is conserved for game. We should just guard against when it is considered game and when it becomes livestock... not that Brahman bulls that became wild are not fun to hunt...),
So please, let’s stop BS clients, stop fighting amongst ourselves, and rather help each other against the onslaught.

Good job Karl.

 

[seattlesetters]

I didn’t read all the posts so sorry if any of this has been said.

ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that can even remotely be used against hunting will be. The entire US Government is against it and is constantly looking to ban it not only in the US, but everywhere.

Second, animals handled by humans are not wild. Please openly (and without prompting) disclose this in your literature and personal interactions if you choose to offer this type of shooting where legal.

Informed decisions help us all help each other.

 

[Tom Hawk]

Karl is right. We are all hunters, and should stand together. Us not standing together results in antis getting what they want, like what happened in B.C. with grizzlies.

 

[johnnyblues]

We somehow must find a way to engage the anti hunting community for the good of conservation. As most of you here being a hunter all of my life I’ve had to defend my passion more than once. I know this is slightly off topic but professional hunters from all countries in Africa as well as globally need to unite for the common cause. We are losing our way of life not only in the fields, mountains and bushes of the world,but in life in general. Liberals are posioning the minds of our youth. Stop the bickering. Let’s all fight the good fight.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Liberals are posioning the minds of our youth.

This is the biggest fight.Not just on hunting, but in common sense.

 

[Rick Cox]

Thank you for posting. I agree with your fundamental point - that people in the hunting industry should stick together to promote the industry and the sport. You give examples of people not doing this, whether it be by lying to hunters or being critical of the practices of others. Again, all good.

We assume that there is a client for each type of hunting out there - whether it be bred game, brought in game, free ranging game, etc. And while that may be right in theory, is it right in practice? That is, are there enough clients for each type of hunting to ensure a viable industry for that type? And is the hunting industry being entirely honest with hunters, or do outfitters feel they must pretend to be something they are not in order to stay in business?

I ask this because after many (many) hunts in many different parts of Africa, I can truly say that I've never had a hunt I didn't enjoy. But in great part that's because I've come to understand the different types of hunts available, and to appreciate each type for what it has to offer. For example, last summer, I spent a very nice week at a beautiful property in the Karoo, with the sole aim of culling. My record was about 50 springbok in one day, but I also had a great time with multiple blesbok, fallow deer, etc. Was any of this hunting, at least as most hunters I know would think of it? Not a bit, and if it had been sold as such, I would have been very disappointed. But it was not, and the result was a great time was had by all.

Many outfitters who sell "olde Africa" type safaris in South Africa are really selling nothing of the kind. Now before you jump all over me, yes, some, even many, are. But a true hunting experience in my view requires that there be some reasonable uncertainty that you will even see the animal you're looking for in a short period of time, let alone find a mature specimen to take. I did not even see a kudu on my first hunt to Africa many years ago (10 days of hunting in Zimbabwe). It took me two hunts to get a leopard. It took me 12 days to get a bongo in the Cameroon jungle (where I took two animals in 14 days). It took me 6 days to get a shot at a mountain nyala in Ethiopia, and I never got the leopard (note that there you pay the trophy fee in advance and no refunds!). I'm not sure most hunters from North America would find those types of hunt acceptable, but I'm not sure (or maybe I'm not a good hunter?!).

Most hunters expect that they will be able to take at least one, more usually two, and sometimes even more, animals in a day in South Africa. That's not 'natural' - game densities in nature are rarely, if ever, that high. In the safaris of old, even with the game densities in East Africa, safaris lasted a month or more to get the game people were looking for. The Green Hills of Africa anyone? When was the last time you worked that hard for an animal in South Africa? There are hunts like that in South Africa - certain species can be hard to take - grysbok, suni, serval, caracal (without hounds), etc., come to mind, but these hunts aren't the norm.

The South African model seems to focus - by and large - more on the number of animals than on the experience. Namibia, at least in may experience (limited there, I admit), seems to offer fewer animals but a more traditional experience. Both have their place, it just depends on what people are looking for.

So that brings up the question: What do hunters expect when they book a hunt in South Africa? Trophies or an experience? If the latter, what type of experience?

The answer of course depends on the person, but it also depends on what is being sold. And I don't think that most outfitters in South Africa are selling the olde Africa experience. Which may be just fine, so long as the market is happy with that.

Nicely put, and thought provoking points.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Hey Karl I found you here:
captive bred lion ("hunting") goes beyond the ethics of individual hunters or the Breeders profit from it. It is the lighting rod the Anti-hunters used to ban all lion Hunting. I could give a rats ass what others do until it effects me. Selfish yup guilty as charged. All my life I had just one long term goal (Dream) to hunt a wild male lion on foot in the African Bush. Finally at the point in my long life where I just might scrape up the $$$ to do a traditional 21 day Lion Safari and....Now it's on an "Individual basis" if USF&W will approve it??? (reads have your personal law firm submit the request?) So for purely selfish reasons I'm for ending captive bred lion ("hunting") if it protects the opportunity to preserve Wild Lion Hunts.

Hi Fred, When the day comes that you want a 21 day hunt for free roaming lion if we have one on quota we would really like to make that dream come true. Hopefully you will also have time to meet some of the wonderful people we have here in Zimbabwe. Meeting the people (in our area Tonga) will give you a much better understanding of our part of Africa for some reason people want to lump all of the 50 something African countries in the same mold. Zimbabwe, is as different from RSA as Arizona is from California. Come hunt or come visit, we would love to have you, the beer is cold and biltong is hanging!

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Good post Karl. I would disagree with you on just one point, I don't think this has been a recent issue. In my opinion it's been going on for years. My first DSC convention as a U.S. rep was in 2012. While repping for a RSA outfit, I have intentions of hunting other countries in southern Africa. It hasn't happened yet, but that's another story.

But with the intention of hunting other countries, I have taken the time starting in 2012 to stop by a number of outfitters from these other areas. One of these was at that first for me DSC in 2012. I was wearing my badge of course with the outfitters name on it. I wasn't greeted by this quite well known outfitter/PH with a hello, how are you? I was greeted with "Ahh a South African" which was followed by some derogatory remarks regarding RSA. I replied with something along the line of "Actually I'm American, I'm a rep for this company, but thank you for your time" and walked away dumbfounded.

And that wasn't the last time I've heard that sort of thing. I'm certain it goes the other way too at times. What's the point of doing so?

While I know there are exceptions, a great many foreign to Africa hunters get their start in RSA and I'd throw Namibia in there as well, on less expensive PG hunts. They may do one or two or more of these and then "graduate" if you will to DG hunting in Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Zambia or Tanzania, etc. If they had never taken that first PG hunt in RSA/Namibia, likely they never would have gone to these other countries.

Does RSA have some disreputable outfitters? They have in the past and I'm sure they still do. Does Zim or Moz or other southern countries have some disreputable outfitters? Same answer.

We can choose to work together for the betterment of conservation, hunting and each other's businesses. Or we can choose a more destructive path and let the chips fall where they may. Personally I'd prefer we work together.

I have just read your post concerning about how you become a dangerous game PH in Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Namibia. Do you really believe what you posted on how you become a Zimbabwe, Namibia Professional hunter, you do one or two RSA plains game hunts? Just wondering before I make any other comments, other than the fact you would never be a rep for our Safari company.

 

[BRICKBURN]

I have just read your post concerning about how you become a dangerous game PH in Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Namibia. Do you really believe what you posted on how you become a Zimbabwe, Namibia Professional hunter, you do one or two RSA plains game hunts? Just wondering before I make any other comments, other than the fact you would never be a rep for our Safari company.

Lon, you may want to re-read @PHOENIX PHIL 's post.

At no point is Phil suggesting "how to become a PH of any sort". He is speaking about an often observed process of Hunters, you know us Clients, that "graduate" from hunting plains game on a first hunt in RSA to DG hunts in other countries like Zim, etc..

You may have just saved yourself from him graduating to hunting with you.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Lon, you may want to re-read @PHOENIX PHIL 's post.

At no point is Phil suggesting "how to become a PH of any sort". He is speaking about an often observed process of Hunters, you know us Clients, that "graduate" from hunting plains game on a first hunt in RSA to DG hunts in other countries like Zim, etc..

You may have just saved yourself from him graduating to hunting with you.

After re-reading his post you may be correct if so I apologize.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Phil can confirm my suppositions and accept the apology if due.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I have just read your post concerning about how you become a dangerous game PH in Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Namibia. Do you really believe what you posted on how you become a Zimbabwe, Namibia Professional hunter, you do one or two RSA plains game hunts? Just wondering before I make any other comments, other than the fact you would never be a rep for our Safari company.

Lon, you may want to re-read @PHOENIX PHIL 's post.

At no point is Phil suggesting "how to become a PH of any sort". He is speaking about an often observed process of Hunters, you know us Clients, that "graduate" from hunting plains game on a first hunt in RSA to DG hunts in other countries like Zim, etc..

You may have just saved yourself from him graduating to hunting with you.

After re-reading his post you may be correct if so I apologize.

No may about it, @BRICKBURN is correct. The part in my post about "foreign to Africa hunters" perhaps should have been "foreign to Africa hunting clients." Apology accepted.