AR-type Rifles

BWH

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What's the 308 like...any idea its weight? I like my 114 (y)
Not bad.... I mean it is heavier than the 114 or 116 obviously. The equipment is heavier, ammo, larger scope, etc. I can weigh it & tell you exactly if you want.... it wears a suppressor most of the time as well.
 

spike.t

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Not bad.... I mean it is heavier than the 114 or 116 obviously. The equipment is heavier, ammo, larger scope, etc. I can weigh it & tell you exactly if you want.... it wears a suppressor most of the time as well.
Thanks...be interested to know the stripped down weight..but please dont go to too much effort.. :D Beers:
 

One Day...

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Here are mine...

ARs.jpg


What's the purpose?
Saying you're in the market for an AR is only slightly less vague than saying you want opinions on which hunting rifle to buy?
This is indeed a FUNDAMENTAL question...

I am in the market for an AR for defense, range, and just in case there is a ban.
OK, so here are a few thoughts...

Defense vs. varminting/hunting...

Sure, a lot of weapons can handle a variety of duties, but there is a huge difference between long range varminting and close quarter battle (CQB), generally associated with home defense.

For CQB defensive purpose, I prefer the carbine (M4) configuration. Mine is a Sig Sauer M400. Important attributes, for its purpose, are: short barrel; collapsible stock; EOTech holographic sight; Streamlight combat lamp; high cap magazine and spare magazine on the stock - 60 rounds on the weapon; single point sling; light weight.

I put on it a M249 SAW pistol grip because I have big hands, and I personally do not believe in the "rails only" forearms. A single rail on the gas block is enough for me (combat lamp). Since I do not need to attach a laser designator, etc. I much prefer the good ergonomics and comfort of an oval handguard. Trust me, after a few hours of field carry it DOES make a huge difference...

For varminting purpose, I want ultimate accuracy. Mine is a Colt Match Target HBar lower (I used to shoot the complete rifle with iron sights just fine, but I cannot see the front sight clearly anymore) with a top I built myself on a Rainier upper with a Wilson Combat stainless steel match barrel chambered in .223 Wylde with a 1 in 8 twist. FYI, .223 Wylde is a match grade chamber spec, for .223 Rem. I replaced the colt 2 stage trigger with a Timney single stage match trigger. The bolt & carrier group are the original Colt HBar Match Target hardware. The forearms tube is obviously free floated.

Even with cheap PPU ammo it shoots 1/2 to 1/3 MOA, which is good enough for me for every day use, and it goes 1/4 MOA with premium match ammo...

IMG_0145.JPG


The problem, as illustrated in the above group, is wind... The 75 gr bullet is simply too light in the heavy cross winds that are so frequent in Northern Arizona where I live.

For MBR / hunting purpose, I personally believe that the 5.56 / .223 is too small. Yes, I know, transformative ammo development has brought the 5.56 a long way since the original 55 gr M193 load, but my own military experience has made me a believer in the full-caliber main battle rifle (MBR) concept, well illustrated by the American M14, French MAS 49/56, German G3, Belgian/British FAL, etc. I also believe that the concept carries through to big game hunting where the .233 is simply too small for most big game.

My "big" AR is therefore a 7.62 / .308 "true and original" Armalite in SPR (Special Purpose Rifle) Mod 2 configuration with heavy stainless steel match barrel with 1 in 10 twist. No it cannot compete with my SSG 69 out to 800 meters, but it is amazingly accurate (for a full caliber semi auto) and easily stays within 1 MOA out to 600 meters. I have two optics for it: a standard range scope and a long range scope, each in their separate mount.

Brands, hardware options, etc...

The barrels, triggers and optics are where I put my money.
I agree with WAB. The bottom line is that very few of the gezillion brands out there offer genuinely different parts, if only for the simple reason that darn few companies have invested in the casting equipment or CNC (computer numerical control) machines necessary to actually produce uppers, lower, etc. They are therefore mostly all reselling OEM parts under their own brand...

I tend to think that semi-custom shops that have a reputation on the line, such as Wilson Combat, Les Baer, and a few others, DO make better rifles. I also believe that you generally get what you pay for and that folks at Daniel Defense or others turn out better rifles that mass-produced DPMS etc. but I have seen some DPMS shoot pretty tight, although the assembly tolerances are visibly looser...

Bolt forward assists are a legacy appendage that has served no purpose since powder issues were sorted out during the Vietnam war...

Piston recoil systems add measurable weight and do not offer any real word advantage over direct gas impingement, unless you only clean your rifle once every few year and shoot the cheapest and dirtiest ammo out there...
 
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mark-hunter

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Guys, just one question, out of curiosity:

How do you cope with ammunition?
223 rem and 5.56x45?
Using both in same rifle, or not?

I know that SAAMI standard gives a NO-GO to using 5.56 in 223 chambered firearms.

On the other hand, some american producers came out with 5.56/223 compatible firearms.
For example, ruger precision rifle in 223/5.56, comes to mind.

So, the question is related both to ar15 owners, and bolt action rifle in 223 rem, owners.
 

BeeMaa

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Guys, just one question, out of curiosity:

How do you cope with ammunition?
223 rem and 5.56x45?
Using both in same rifle, or not?

I know that SAAMI standard gives a NO-GO to using 5.56 in 223 chambered firearms.

On the other hand, some american producers came out with 5.56/223 compatible firearms.
For example, ruger precision rifle in 223/5.56, comes to mind.

So, the question is related both to ar15 owners, and bolt action rifle in 223 rem, owners.
223REM and 5.56NATO have slightly different chamber dimensions and SAAMI specs.
In short if your rifle is chambered in 5.56NATO, you can shoot either 223REM or 5.56NATO.
If you have a rifle chambered in 223REM, you should NOT shoot 5.56NATO.

There is a caliber called 223WYLDE that will allow both calibers to be fired safely.
I believe all of Rock River Arms AR-15 rifles are so chambered.
 
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Hogpatrol

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There are more than a few .223 chambers. Have had excellent accuracy with the PTG .223 Match.
Note, the same length base to case mouth for all but the match.

.223 flavors.jpg
 

spike.t

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223REM and 5.56NATO have slightly different chamber dimensions and SAAMI specs.
In short if your rifle is chambered in 5.56NATO, you can shoot either 223REM or 5.56NATO.
If you have a rifle chambered in 223REM, you should NOT shoot 5.56NATO.

There is a caliber called 223WYLDE that will allow both calibers to be fired safely.
I believe all of Rock River Arms AR-15 rifles are so chambered.
My PWS 114 is chambered in 223 wylde as well.
 

mark-hunter

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Guys,thanks for comments! (y)
 

One Day...

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For varminting purpose, I want ultimate accuracy ... a Wilson Combat stainless steel match barrel chambered in .223 Wylde with a 1 in 8 twist. FYI, .223 Wylde is a match grade chamber spec, for .223 Rem ...
I should have said to be more specific "for (shooting) .223 Rem in 5.56 weapons." Apologies, I thought this was more well known...

The "Readers' Digest" summary is simple: the .223 Wylde chamber has essentially the larger dimensions of a 5.56 chamber and the smaller diameter leade of a .223 chamber. It allows the safe shooting of 5.56 ammo while providing the accuracy of a .223 chamber.

For your enjoyment, here is a good article on the subject. I bolded and put in green font the critical points.


What is 223 Wylde? How does it compare to 5.56

223 Wylde is taking the shooting world by storm and giving a lot of carbine owners more flexibility when it comes to ammo. To find out why you might opt for 223 Wylde vs 5.56 or 223 Remington, keep reading.

The differences between .223 Remington and 5.56×45 NATO have been debated and explained a million times over. Although these two popular cartridges have a lot in common, their similarities are mostly skin deep. You can’t treat the similar cartridges interchangeably in most AR-15 rifles. Enter the 223 Wylde to open up a new world of ammo possibilities. But what is 223 Wylde?

What is 223 Wylde?
223 Wylde is a hybrid rifle chamber that allows you to shoot both .223 and 5.56×45 ammo from the firearm safely. Technically speaking, a 223 Wylde rifle has identical chamber angling as a 5.56×45 rifle but also brings a .2240 freebore diameter. Freebore is the space between a rifle’s chamber and the rifling in the barrel. Tighter freebore size in a 223 Wylde rifle allows you to shoot .223 ammo with relatively strong accuracy from it than a 5.56×45 rifle.
To really appreciate what 223 Wylde brings to the table, you need to understand 223 Remington and 5.56×45 as calibers.

Clearing the Cartridge Confusion – .223 vs. 5.56
Pressure is the primary difference. Pressures produced by a 5.56 cartridge are generally higher than those produced by a .223 round. As a result of the pressure difference, 5.56 rounds also typically produce higher velocities.
The exact differences are difficult to properly evaluate, because pressure is measured differently for each cartridge. .223 Remington, being a civilian cartridge, is standardized by SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute). SAAMI measures pressure from the middle of the case. In comparison, 5.56 NATO is held to military specs. The pressure produced by a 5.56 cartridge is measured at the mouth of the case. The slight difference in the point of measurement can account for a variance in pressure measurement of more than 20,000 psi.
Because the pressure on these two cartridges is measured quite differently, it is difficult to get a clear apples-to-apples comparison. However, it is pretty common knowledge that pressures in the 5.56 cartridge are higher than those in the .223. This pressure difference makes it potentially dangerous to shoot the 5.56 NATO out of a .223 Remington chamber.

Chamber Differences
Part of the pressure issues lie outside the cartridges themselves. Pressure is also influenced by the size and shape of the chamber. Although .223 Remington cartridges will fit inside a 5.56 NATO chamber (and vice versa), the two chambers are quite different.
The chamber dimensions for the 5.56 are slightly larger than a .223 chamber. However, the main difference is in the leade. The lead (or throat) is the area between the front of the chamber and the point where the projectile connects with the rifling.
When a cartridge designed for a longer leade (like the 5.56 NATO) is fired out of a chamber with a shorter leade (We’re talking about .223 Remington here), it creates a dangerous and almost instantaneous pressure spike.
If you’re lucky, shooting 5.56 ammo out of a rifle chambered in .223 will only increase fouling and speed up the wear and tear on your weapon. If you’re not so lucky, the swift jump in pressure could cause a catastrophic weapon failure.
While the odds of your rifle exploding are fairly slim, the chance is still there. That’s not a lottery you want to win. Shooting these cartridges involves tiny, but violent explosions that propel metal projectiles nearly three times the speed of sound. It is probably wise not to tempt the lottery gods. Just play a scratch-off ticket. It’s much safer.
While it is ill-advised to shoot 5.56 ammo out of a weapon chambered for .223, the opposite is perfectly safe. You can shoot .223 Remington cartridges out of a 5.56 chamber to your heart’s content. And since .223 ammunition is often cheaper than 5.56, you won’t go broke doing it.
Just don’t expect the same level of accuracy you would get shooting .223 Remington cartridges out of a rifle with a .223 Remington chamber.

Testing A 223 Wylde Rifle vs A 5.56×45 Rifle
To get a sense of what kind of differences you should expect if you make the switch from a standard 5.56×45 AR to a 223 Wylde rifle, we hit the range.
We tested a standard Colt LE6920 rifle, chambered in 5.56×45 and an Alex Pro Firearms 223 Wylde rifle. Both rifles have a 16-inch barrel.
More than anything, we wanted to see if shooters could expect differences in velocity between the two. Would the microscopic differences in chamber size lead to one rifle shooting significantly faster than the other?
For our testing, we looked at a standard M193, 55-grain load of Hornady Frontier 5.56 ammo as well as a heavier, 75 grain match grade ammunition.

55 Grain Ammo Test Results:
223 Wylde Rifle Velocity5.56×45 Rifle Velocity
Trial One30133033
Trial Two30112973
Trial Three30392996
Trial Four30492999
Trial Five30462996
Average Velocity3031.6 fps2999.4 fps
Standard Deviation18.321.5

75 Grain Ammo Test Results:
223 Wylde Rifle Velocity5.56×45 Rifle Velocity
Trial One27332707
Trial Two26772712
Trial Three27532688
Trial Four26302705
Trial Five27452685
Average Velocity2707.6 fps2699.4 fps
Standard Deviation52.612.1

Admittedly, there are a number of variables at work here. Chief among them, the consistency of the ammunition is a variable outside of the limits of either rifle.
That said, looking at the data, it’s hard to say there were significant differences between our test rifles. While the Wylde muzzle velocities came in slightly faster, we’re talking about a one percent difference. Is that as a result of a tighter freebore space in the Wylde rifle? Sure, it’s possible. But with a one percent difference, it’s hard to suggest faster muzzle velocity is a selling point for the rifle.
In either case, both rifles gave us about what we would have expected when comparing our 16″ barrel velocities to those provided by Hornady with a 20″ barrel.

The Wylde Child – 223 Wylde vs. 5.56
We don’t often get a fairy tale ending when it comes to firearms, but this time we did. A guy named Bill Wylde sought to combine the benefits of the .223 Remington (consistency and accuracy) and 5.56 NATO cartridges (more down-range power). Just like Goldilocks, Wylde wanted a chamber that was “just right” for both cartridges. So he took matters into his own hands and designed one.

Shoot 5.56 or 223 – It’s Wylde!
The .223 Wylde chamber (there are no .223 Wylde cartridges, so don’t ask for them at your local gun shop) has the same leade angle and external dimensions of the 5.56 NATO. However, it also has the leade diameter of the .223 Remington. This design allows for tight, controlled gas expansion due to the smaller leade diameter. However, the chamber angling provides sufficient space to handle hotter 5.56 loads.
Basically, the .223 Wylde is like old-school Miley Cyrus. It gives shooters the “best of both worlds.” With a .223 Wylde chamber, you can easily bounce back and forth between the two loads. This versatility allows you to enjoy the exceptional accuracy of .223 Remington loads and the increased velocity and downrange power of the 5.56×45 NATO.

Should You Switch to .223 Wylde?
So, why isn’t everyone jumping on board the Wylde train? Good question.
The .223 Wylde produces optimal performance (even with less expensive ammo) and provides considerable versatility. The one major drawback is cost. A firearm with a .223 Wylde chamber will usually come with a higher price tag. The Alex Pro Firearms set-up in our photographs runs just shy of $700. That’s a couple hundred dollars more than an entry-level AR-15.
Hopefully, as more shooters become aware of what .223 Wylde offers, we’ll see the price drop and the availability rise.
In the meantime, any extra cash you fork out in a .223 Wylde upgrade will be more than made up later in ammo savings. This is especially true if you put a bunch of lead downrange. And what’s the fun in buying a firearm if you aren’t going to shoot it?
 
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WAB

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Excellent article, thanks @one Day!
 
 

 

 

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