Any reason not to use a 350 grain .375 bullet for buffalo

[steve white]

In general, your viewpoint correct. Heavy for caliber bullets may at times require a faster twist than standard, however the 375 with its 1/12 rate of twist is perfectly capable to stabilize heavy for caliber bullets. If you were refering to 30 caliber bullets, then the typical 1/10 rate of twist may not be sufficient for long, heavy for caliber bullets such as 220 grains pointed bullets and up in weight. As an example the barrels chambered for the 300 Norma Magnum which is specifically a long distance cartridge requiring these types of longer bullets with higher bearing surface, are often chambered in faster rates of twist such as 1/8 give or take.
The 375, 416, 458 are generally chambered in rates of twist sufficient to properly stabilize heavy for caliber bullets. The notion which I agree with that long, heavy for caliber bullets require faster rates of twist applies more to smaller calibers.

The unappreciated part of the twist rate concerns yaw--even if a load groups well, yaw can put the brakes on penetration when the projectile is traveling through meat.

 

[ftrovato]

I used 350gr TSX’s once on buffalo and will never again. The 350grainers are the solution to a problem that doesn’t exist. In fact, more often than not, they will fail to deliver the desired results.

350 grain monolithics are very long bullets and unless you have a rifle with a very tight twist ratio( which most 375’s don’t) they won’t stabilize. The result is a bullet which tumbles on impact and doesn’t achieve the desired pennatration.

Furthermore, will your impact velocity be considerably lower, which unless you shoot at very close range, will result in an impact velocity of lower than 2000f/s,
2000f/s and faster is essential for optimum performance ( expansion ) of a Barnes TSX.

A 300grain monolithic will outpenatrate it’s heavier brother from any angle on thick skinned , big boned animals, and therefore I simply cannot / will not recomend the 350’s

Ps. I have learned this through experience.... not hearsay

Nothing like personal experience! Thanks for sharing!!

 

[Rosch]

I used 350gr TSX’s once on buffalo and will never again. The 350grainers are the solution to a problem that doesn’t exist. In fact, more often than not, they will fail to deliver the desired results.

Before even thinking about loading heavier bullets, there should be some brainwork done, to get a clear look at! My first question would be:
1. Why is the 375 H&H with 300 gr such a burner in the world of Big Game hunting?
Easy answer: Because the well balanced relation between cartridge case, bulletsize and weight is very favourable for the thing she is made and used for. Universal hunting with one gun!
And in comparison to other (most bigger) big game calibers the recoil is quiet easy handable, which might result in better shooting and delivers so better results.
2. Why did any others invent and offer 350 Grainers long ago?
Because it's a "...solution to a problem, that doesn't exist"
Well said @Kopskoot !
So everything is great, no need to change anything!
My advice to the thread owner:
Damned, just get out of Your armchair, switch off the PC, take a 375 H&H rifle and a truck full of ammo 300 grainers, practice and get used to the gun! Offhand, with Sticks or laying on the ground.
If You then spent some time on searching for good hunting offers on the black continent, there might be no more time left, to think about stuff like this!

 

[BenKK]

I love the [emoji639][emoji6[emoji640][emoji637]][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]] grain Woodleigh RNSN HDs for buffalo, super emphatic, dozens of good bulls with this bullet. But if I were to switch to a TSX I would use the [emoji639][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]] grain version because the longer one won’t fit the magazine and I think the heavier one would be more likely to pencil through rather than petal-out nicely.

 

[NIGHTHAWK]

I’ve killed a few animals with a .375H&H and 350 Grain Barnes TSX. Buff, Giraffe, Zebra, and I believe a Sable too.

Buff at 65 yards +/-. I’d use them again.

I believe I used RL 15

 

[5shot]

Hodgdon Manual #26 shows every load developing 2400+ FPS with 350s. That would cause some destruction.

 

[SRvet]

@One Day... and the other ballistics experts here: Reading through this thread, the calculations you made and conclusions you came to, are exactly opposite to what @nomspc in his discussion with Kevin Robertson received as advice. Also mentioned in Kevin Robertson's recent podcast, where he claims that for outstanding penetration, one needs good bullet stability, which is found in heavy for caliber bullets, in relation to typical twist rates.

Did I misunderstand something here? Because these views are not two different shades of colour, they are diametrically opposed views. One saying, 350grains (heavy for caliber) is (generally) no good for bullet stability and thus more prone to keyholing and lower performance in penetration. The other saying the heavy for caliber bullets are better for penetration performance....

I'm a bit confused now...

My understanding from studying the works of Doctari that the heavier 350gr expanding projectiles are advantageous because they expand to a greater diameter and therefore create a larger permanent wound cavity than the equivalent 300 gr projectiles. His one exception was with the TSX as the hollow point on the 300 grain is the same depth as on the 350 grain bullet. This means that bullet expansion is arrested at the same point so the expanded diameter of the bullet and therefore the permanent wound cavity will be similar. Combine this with the excellent penetration of the 300g TSX and the 350 grain TSX looks less shiny. For a bonded lead core bullet the 350 grainers make sense

 

[Paul Homsy]

My understanding from studying the works of Doctari that the heavier 350gr expanding projectiles are advantageous because they expand to a greater diameter and therefore create a larger permanent wound cavity than the equivalent 300 gr projectiles. His one exception was with the TSX as the hollow point on the 300 grain is the same depth as on the 350 grain bullet. This means that bullet expansion is arrested at the same point so the expanded diameter of the bullet and therefore the permanent wound cavity will be similar. Combine this with the excellent penetration of the 300g TSX and the 350 grain TSX looks less shiny. For a bonded lead core bullet the 350 grainers make sense

The most important part is the length of the bullet and its bearing surface in relation to the rate of twist of your barrel.
The typical rate of twist of the 375 H&H is 1/12 (one twist in twelve inches). This stabilizes a bullet as long as 1.75 inches. If you have a rifle with a slower rate of twist, stick to 300 grains bullets.
It's ALL ABOUT STABILIZATION. Nothing else. Quality bullets expand and do their job. You want more weight, more sectional density, more penetration. Try the heavier ones. If they work, great. If they don't stick to 300 grains bullets and get a 416 or a 458 or anything you fancy. I wouldn't try to make a caliber work for the next larger caliber up.
The difference between the 300 TSX and the 350 TSX is more penetration with the later because of the higher sectional density.
All copper bullets have a longer bearing surface than their cup and core counterparts because of the lesser density of copper. It's therefore very important to make sure your bullet isn't too long for your rifle's rate of twist.

 

[Hornedfrogbbq]

So just to be uber clear on a really interesting old discussion, a Winchester Model 70 .375 H&H has a 1 in 12 twist rate in it's barrel, it can stabilize a 1.75in bullet. The Barnes 350 grain TSX is 1.691in long. So in theory, the higher sectional density of the bullet should help in penetration and "whomp."

I do know certain guns digest certain loads better than others. I don't see a reason NOT to use a heavier for caliber bullet IF your gun can stabilize the bullet and you know your ballistics. Hendershot ammo's Extreme Custom ammo pushes the Barnes 350gr bullet at 2300fps at the muzzle. Using the long range ballistic calculator, it remains above 2000fps out to 150 yards. I don't know how many of you are shooting buffalo beyond that, but i doubt many are. Certainly for other non-dangerous game/PG you very well could be and i'd probably not go up that high in bullet weight. Choice Ammo loads that same load to 2320fps.

As long as you don't mind the increase in recoil AND your gun can spin-em accurately, I don't see a reason why these shouldn't be considered. I am 100% sure they will not work in all rifles and I'm fairly confident the doubles aren't regulated to them.

I haven't run it through the greenhill calculator to figure out the optimum rifling twist rate but i bet a 1 in 12 or 1 in 13 would be perfect for a 350gr bullet that is less than 1.7in long.

 

[375Fox]

So just to be uber clear on a really interesting old discussion, a Winchester Model 70 .375 H&H has a 1 in 12 twist rate in it's barrel, it can stabilize a 1.75in bullet. The Barnes 350 grain TSX is 1.691in long. So in theory, the higher sectional density of the bullet should help in penetration and "whomp."

I do know certain guns digest certain loads better than others. I don't see a reason NOT to use a heavier for caliber bullet IF your gun can stabilize the bullet and you know your ballistics. Hendershot ammo's Extreme Custom ammo pushes the Barnes 350gr bullet at 2300fps at the muzzle. Using the long range ballistic calculator, it remains above 2000fps out to 150 yards. I don't know how many of you are shooting buffalo beyond that, but i doubt many are. Certainly for other non-dangerous game/PG you very well could be and i'd probably not go up that high in bullet weight. Choice Ammo loads that same load to 2320fps.

As long as you don't mind the increase in recoil AND your gun can spin-em accurately, I don't see a reason why these shouldn't be considered. I am 100% sure they will not work in all rifles and I'm fairly confident the doubles aren't regulated to them.

I haven't run it through the greenhill calculator to figure out the optimum rifling twist rate but i bet a 1 in 12 or 1 in 13 would be perfect for a 350gr bullet that is less than 1.7in long.

I can think of a few reasons. A 300 gr TSX at faster velocity is putting nearly the same energy on target as a slower 350 gr TSX so no advantage to 350 gr. A 350 gr TSX will not expand any larger than a 300 gr TSX, possibly even less due to less velocity. Over penetration can be an issue hunting buffalo. A 350 gr is more likely to exit possibly hitting another buffalo unless you can guarantee you are hunting lone dugga boys. Also a 375 H&H is usually an all around rifle not a dangerous game specific rifle. I’ve used the same bullet for 5 yards on buffalo as I have for 300 yards on plains game. The 300 gr’s better trajectory has advantages. The 350 gr is fine for a dedicated buffalo rifle but I don’t see any advantages over the 300 gr especially in TSX. I could maybe see an advantage to a lead core bullet that might expand more or compensate for losing some mass, but a TSX will retain 100% weight anyway.

 

[Hornedfrogbbq]

I could be wrong, but if you believe Kevin Robertson and his book The Perfect Shot 2, sectional density has more impact on penetration than velocity. Obviously bullet construction is of utmost importance.

Your point on over-penetration is a good one. For sure in hunting in big herds, you may want that first to NOT be a solid, mono-metal or other.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

They will perform very well, but the trajectory will not be as flat as the traditional 300Gr bullet. Within 70-80 yards however, you will have a really heavy hitter.

 

[375Fox]

I could be wrong, but if you believe Kevin Robertson and his book The Perfect Shot 2, sectional density has more impact on penetration than velocity. Obviously bullet construction is of utmost importance.

Your point on over-penetration is a good one. For sure in hunting in big herds, you may want that first to NOT be a solid, mono-metal or other.

You can listen to this. 350 gr TSX isn’t his recommendation. I’m sure sectional density has more to do with penetration than velocity, but velocity is a larger component of energy. Lots of arguments on it here, but you need both.

 

[steve white]

The unappreciated part of the twist rate concerns yaw--even if a load groups well, yaw can put the brakes on penetration when the projectile is traveling through meat.

possible correction--Newboomer shot said 350 grainer front to back through a buffalo!

 

[deewayne2003]

possible correction--Newboomer shot said 350 grainer front to back through a buffalo!

I recently listened to a podcast where Kevin "Doctari" Robertson was discussing different dangerous game bullets and he brought up an interesting point about the 350gr TSX.

He stated that he loved the 300gr TSX bullet, but in his opinion Barnes got the 350gr version wrong because they left the expansion depth of the bullet the same as the 300gr version; so he believed that the 350gr can over penetrate and pass through with potential to hit other game beyond the desired target.

He also said that the 350gr Woodleigh worked well and expanded appropriately.

 

[Hornedfrogbbq]

I recently listened to a podcast where Kevin "Doctari" Robertson was discussing different dangerous game bullets and he brought up an interesting point about the 350gr TSX.

He stated that he loved the 300gr TSX bullet, but in his opinion Barnes got the 350gr version wrong because they left the expansion depth of the bullet the same as the 300gr version; so he believed that the 350gr can over penetrate and pass through with potential to hit other game beyond the desired target.

He also said that the 350gr Woodleigh worked well and expanded appropriately.

Right. I know he has specifically talked about liking the 350gr bullets weight with the .374 to bring the sectional density up (talking both buff and elephant) but apparently doesn't love the TSX version. I'm wondering what bullet in that weight he does like.

No doubt, the conditions matter. Forest versus delta versus shooting in/by a herd versus solo/small grouping of bulls, 30 yards for initial shot versus longer range, etc. We always need to match the bullet and load to the conditions.

 

[375Fox]

Right. I know he has specifically talked about liking the 350gr bullets weight with the .374 to bring the sectional density up (talking both buff and elephant) but apparently doesn't love the TSX version. I'm wondering what bullet in that weight he does like.

No doubt, the conditions matter. Forest versus delta versus shooting in/by a herd versus solo/small grouping of bulls, 30 yards for initial shot versus longer range, etc. We always need to match the bullet and load to the conditions.

I posted the podcast in an earlier response to you. It answers your question. It’s a very informative resource and easy to listen while driving. He likes woodleigh 350 gr, but other PHs I’ve hunted with think they are too soft. Northfork’s 350 gr might be a good compromise.

 

[Hornedfrogbbq]

Right, i listened to it. Very informative. I know he likes a variety of bullets and with bullets continuing to evolve (in mostly an awesome way) i wonder what his current recommendations are.

I sure hear alot about the greatness of the Woodleigh hydro bullets but i don't believe anyone is commercially loading them right now...i could be wrong. I know Mark Haldane almost requires use of a Swift A Frame for the first shot because they are shooting in herds and don't want over-penetration. I think the last time I heard he will pay if it over-penetrates and injures another buff. If you use anything else, it's on the hunter.

 

[Kevin375]

I was curious to try these super heavy weight bullets in .375", and the easiest brand I could get was Degol, and for a very cheap price.
I used both Lion Load and Starkmantel 350 gr at ~ 705 m/s (2312 f/s). Unfortunately, I haven't shot a buffalo with them, but they worked great on plains game. I was also able to kill 2 jackals at 194 and 201 meters with them, but thanks to the ballistic turret too.
For buffalo, the Starkmantel will be more suitable, because it keeps a bigger weight rentention.

Even if my samples are small, it seems the 350 gr loses more weight in games than the 300 gr version, and the final expansion is not any larger either.

 

[Jim Golden]

My home built .375 Weatherby does 2889 ft/s with a 300gr. I chronographed it. Long barrel. I throated it for a 350 and still left 3/8" of freebore. I've yet to load some 350's. Want to try them. Not sure what velocity I could get....maybe 2750 ft/s? That would be a real hammer. To date, it does so well with 300gr that I've not varied from that. Don't even intend to look at 270's. I just figured I'd run only 300's in it and that's that. But you guys have me thinking about 350's again