Any reason not to use a 350 grain .375 bullet for buffalo

[Hunt101]

Hi, I'm planning a buffalo hunt for next year and I'll be using a .375 double which is currently regulated for 300 grain bullets. I have never shot 350 grain bullets through it but thought about trying them thinking that the larger bullet couldn't hurt. Are there any down sides to using the larger grain bullets if the grouping is acceptable? I suspect the regulation may prove to be an issue and I'm not willing to re-regulate the rifle away from the 300 grain bullets. My plan would be to use a soft point for the first shot followed up by a FMJ. Completely new to hunting buffalo so all advice is welcomed.

 

[enysse]

There is no reason not to use 350 grain bullets for buffalo. Like you said, if your double doesn't like them go back to 300 grains.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

I'm with Enysse, no reason not to try it, it the 350 will bump the energy considerably and at the ranges that shots will be taken the heavier projectile will not cause any issues, I assume you are referring to the 350 North Fork??

I have used the 380 Rhino many times on Buff and they pack a wallop!!!! if it regulates, I don't see any issues whatsoever...

Enjoy!

My best always

 

[sestoppelman]

Try them for sure, but just dont sacrifice your regulation or accuracy for them. Many buff have fallen to 300grs. The round was designed for them. You do lose some velocity of course but at buffalo ranges it wont matter. If they regulate and shoot well, shoot them. Assume your double will be iron sighted so get close, as the saying goes, then get 10 yards closer. Good luck.

 

[DOC-404]

No reason at all not to try them..but why ? A well placed 300 grainer, from a rifle that already shoots well with them, is all you need. Your PH will have the heavy hitter anyway, should there be a problem.

 

[Hunt101]

I assume you are referring to the 350 North Fork

No Norma makes a couple factory loads out there in 350 grain that I've been looking at. I do fully understand that 300 grains is enough, but I think I'm going to at least try a box and see how my rifle groups.

Thanks

 

[Newboomer]

Took my buff with a Barnes 350g TSX in 375HH at about 30 yards head on. He went about 80 yards and we found him stone dead.

 

[Kopskoot]

I used 350gr TSX’s once on buffalo and will never again. The 350grainers are the solution to a problem that doesn’t exist. In fact, more often than not, they will fail to deliver the desired results.

350 grain monolithics are very long bullets and unless you have a rifle with a very tight twist ratio( which most 375’s don’t) they won’t stabilize. The result is a bullet which tumbles on impact and doesn’t achieve the desired pennatration.

Furthermore, will your impact velocity be considerably lower, which unless you shoot at very close range, will result in an impact velocity of lower than 2000f/s,
2000f/s and faster is essential for optimum performance ( expansion ) of a Barnes TSX.

A 300grain monolithic will outpenatrate it’s heavier brother from any angle on thick skinned , big boned animals, and therefore I simply cannot / will not recomend the 350’s

Ps. I have learned this through experience.... not hearsay

 

[Red Leg]

I am a great believer in the .300 gr bullet in the .375. Perfect balance of velocity, extended point blank range, and penetration with any of the premium bullets. The 350 is a solution in search of a problem.

 

[One Day...]

100% agreed with @sestoppelman, @DOC-404, @Kopskoot and @Red Leg. 300 gr soft nose lead core did not become the standard reference at random. Surely, hundreds of thousands of buff died over the last 100 years verifying the appropriateness of the recipe...

Will bigger/faster do it too? Obviously yes! 400 gr .416, 500 gr .470, etc. come to mind...

Will 350 gr .375 do it too? Well... depends... As already noted by @sestoppelman if your double shoots 6" groups at 50 yd with them, or if they punch paper sideways as noted by @Kopskoot, most of us would probably stick to the 300 gr regulation load...

I notice that the 350 gr Norma loads fly at 2,175 fps at 50 yd and barely 2,050 fps at 100 yd, so the speed issue noted by @Kopskoot is very real if the slug were a TSX (or other mono-metal?). In Norma's 350 gr case, however, they use Woodleigh softs and Woodleigh FMJ, so speed is not as critical.

Here is one more aspect that has not been discussed yet: all other considerations remaining equal, increasing the weight of the ejecta (bullet + powder) by 10% increases recoil by 20%. Conversely, a 10% lower speed will counteract and reduce recoil by 20%. So, going to 350 gr at 2,300 fps instead of 300 gr at 2,550 fps increases ejecta weight by 18% and reduces speed by 10%. Logically, one should expect an increase of recoil of 15%. This will not be an issue for some/most, but could it be for others?

On DG, there is no such thing as too dead, so this is where it seems that high weight retention mono-metal (and A Frame) deliver "added performance for same weight" over lower weight retention (older) soft nose lead bullets (including Nosler Partition that shed their front core). Sticking to 300 gr with a mono-metal up-guns the .375. A very, very sound approach as noted by @Red Leg.

However, a growing number of folks (I am one of them) have started questioning whether "same performance with lower weight" is not a viable path? If indeed the performance is what it needs to be, and going mono-metal increases performance, then the same question logically asked by @DOC-404 applies: why? (I purposefully teased the africahunting.com community with the provocative question of reducing bullet weight by the 30% that the Partition typically looses - https://www.africahunting.com/threads/can-plains-game-a-frames-or-tsx-bullets-be-30-lighter.45537/ - to see what Brothers in Arms thought, and while we seem to all agree that 30% might be a bridge too far, it looks like a lot of us are comfortable with shooting mono-metal 10% lighter than lead core bullets).

So, to me, the question would be: will a .375 H&H 270 gr mono-meta do the same job and recoil less, hence be more shootable for most folks? (and increase the universality of the .375 by making it flatter shooting still).

And to further confuse the issue (LOL), I will hasten to add that I left the .375 bandwagon in favor of the .416 bandwagon when CZ finally "resurrected" the field-grade .416 Rigby, and that, anyway, I hunt buff with a Kreighoff .470 NE double. The rationale (?) to the .416 madness being that if there is a genuine point (?) about up-gunning the .375 to 350 gr bullets, then I guess that 400 gr .416 are even better. The rationale (?) to the .470 madness being that I just like the 'romance' of the big double...

PS: but I still have a .375 H&H and probably 5 or 6 boxes of Federal Premium 300 gr Nosler Partition for it. Some day, one of my sons will love it. The other will get the .416 R. Both guns will do the job if we have done our job of making sure that safari hunting is still a possibility for them...

 

[Dr Ray]

I agree with Red Leg. I use the old and tested 300 grain Nosler partitions.

 

[Newboomer]

Red Leg got me thinking about the 350g TSX. My load gives me 2257fps at the muzzle. Now what that does at 30, 50, 75 yards is a good question. It may drop below the 2k minimum. I just checked my last practice target and it shows no keyhole or yaw at 100 yards and I got a 2 inch group. Maybe I was real lucky with that buff. The entrance wound showed no deformity from a nice round bullet size hole in his chest. I was planning on using the 350gTSXs on eland next year but in light of Red Leg's experience, I do have some 235TSXs that worked great on PG last year. They might be the way to go and my rifle likes them.
Thanks for the heads up.

 

[One Day...]

If I read right, it seems that it was @Kopskoot who "got you thinking."

For what it is worth (different bullet etc.) the Norma 350 gr loads are advertised for: V0 2300 (f/s); V50 2174 (f/s); V100 2052 (f/s); V150 1934 (f/s); V200 1821 (f/s). If yours starts 50 fps slower, it would be safe to conclude that it is flying at less than 2,000 fps at 100 yd.

As we all know, speed will typically not affect bullet stability (barrel twist vs. bullet length will). So in your case it seems that your barrel stabilizes the 350 gr TSX well.

Did you recover the bullet from your buff? Would be really interesting to see if the 4 petals blossomed... The things is, even if they did not, shooting a solid (or a solid-behaving low speed mono-metal) in a buff length-wise is still a heck of a good buff medicine

 

[Newboomer]

One Day,
No, we couldn't find the bullet. It may have been moving slow but sure did the job. The skinners went through the carcass with a fine tooth comb and found nothing. I talked to the outfitter and he said if they found the slug when butchering the buff he'd mail it to me. That was April of 2018 and I haven't heard anything so obviously they didn't find it.

It may be my particular model 70 but it likes Barnes TSX in any weight. PPU and Federals work well, too. Most of the time I get 1moa or 2 inches at 100 yards. Go figure.

 

[Bas]

Look into Cutting Edge Bullets and Lehigh Bullets before making your final decision. Interesting concepts. Best of luck. See what Paul T. says about his buff experiences in Australia.

 

[ChrisG]

If I read right, it seems that it was @Kopskoot who "got you thinking."

For what it is worth (different bullet etc.) the Norma 350 gr loads are advertised for: V0 2300 (f/s); V50 2174 (f/s); V100 2052 (f/s); V150 1934 (f/s); V200 1821 (f/s). If yours starts 50 fps slower, it would be safe to conclude that it is flying at less than 2,000 fps at 100 yd.

As we all know, speed will typically not affect bullet stability (barrel twist vs. bullet length will). So in your case it seems that your barrel stabilizes the 350 gr TSX well.

Did you recover the bullet from your buff? Would be really interesting to see if the 4 petals blossomed... The things is, even if they did not, shooting a solid (or a solid-behaving low speed mono-metal) in a buff length-wise is still a heck of a good buff medicine

Speed absolutely has an effect on bullet stability. The faster the bullet goes, the faster its spins because it covers the 14" for one rotation in less time. to give you an example:

375 H&H, 350 grain, 1:14" twist, @2100fps = 108,000rpm
375 H&H, 350 grain, 1:14" twist, @ 2,300fps =118,285rpm.

Thats about a 10% increase in spin rate and theoretically an increase in stability. But truth be told, those 350 grain .375 TSXs were never intended to be used in the H&H although in some cases as @Newboomer discovered, they do work. They were designed to be fired from the big .375s, Weatherby, RUM and the monster .378 Weatherby. They will absolutely stabilize in those rifles due to the increase in velocity.

 

[One Day...]

Speed absolutely has an effect on bullet stability. The faster the bullet goes, the faster its spins because it covers the 14" for one rotation in less time. to give you an example:

375 H&H, 350 grain, 1:14" twist, @2100fps = 108,000rpm
375 H&H, 350 grain, 1:14" twist, @ 2,300fps =118,285rpm.

Thats about a 10% increase in spin rate and theoretically an increase in stability. But truth be told, those 350 grain .375 TSXs were never intended to be used in the H&H although in some cases as @Newboomer discovered, they do work. They were designed to be fired from the big .375s, Weatherby, RUM and the monster .378 Weatherby. They will absolutely stabilize in those rifles due to the increase in velocity.

Yes, you are technically correct. Bullet velocity will technically affect bullet stability, for the very reason you state. No challenge on my part.

But, truth be told indeed, this effect will be so minor compared to the effect of barrel twist that I tend to ignore it. In fact, I have yet to find a barrel/bullet combo in which a 10% increase or decrease in velocity will result in a bullet stability or lack thereof, but maybe I just do not have enough experience, and there is no challenging the fact you provide.

For what it is worth, the data you provide still surprises me, but for a different reason. I had always thought that .375 barrels are generally rifled with a 1 in 12" twist. A quick verification on the Weatherby website confirms that they use 1:12" for their three .375 chamberings (H&H, .375 Wby and .378 Wby), so do Winchester, CZ, Kimber, etc. for .375 H&H, so does Remington for the .375 RUM, etc. For @Newboomer's concern, I would speculate that the faster 1:12 twist of typical .375 barrels may have more to do to stabilize a 350 gr slug than a 10% velocity increase in a slower 1:14 twist barrel ;-)

 

[One Day...]

One Day,
No, we couldn't find the bullet. It may have been moving slow but sure did the job. The skinners went through the carcass with a fine tooth comb and found nothing. I talked to the outfitter and he said if they found the slug when butchering the buff he'd mail it to me. That was April of 2018 and I haven't heard anything so obviously they didn't find it.

It may be my particular model 70 but it likes Barnes TSX in any weight. PPU and Federals work well, too. Most of the time I get 1moa or 2 inches at 100 yards. Go figure.

Interestingly, I have had a similar experience with most (all, I think!) of my rifles from .223 to .458, through .243, 6 mm, 6,5x54, .257 Wby, .270, 7x64, 7x65R, 7 mm Rem Mag, .308, .300 Win Mag, .300 Wby, .338 Win Mag, .340 Wby, .375 H&H, .416 Rigby, Lord which one do I forget?). It is a very rare case indeed, when one brand/type of bullet/ammo produces an objective dramatic difference in precision. Yeah, there will be small differences in groups size of 1/2" or 3/4" or so at 100 yd, but I am often dubious whether this is truly due to the gun/ammo, or me, or the weather/altitude/temperature, or ammo manufacturing consistency, etc. I certainly have had guns produce bad groups, but upon post-mortem it has always been for an external reason (loose base screws, sliding scope, warped wood affecting bedding, sling tension on barrel-mounted front sling studs - an insidious one!, etc.).

Maybe this is just dumb luck, but truth be told, I have never in 40 years owned a gun (Sauer, Mauser, Mannlicher, Steyr, CZ, Weatherby, Winchester, Remington, etc.) that genuinely shot more than 1.5" to 2" groups at 100 yd (2 MOA) with quality ammo (Federal Premium Nosler Partition or Weatherby Nosler Partition for the longest time, moving to TTSX in most calibers currently) as long as I respected a basic match between bullet length and barrel twist. More prosaically, since I have always shot top quality factory ammo (and still do) I have never worried too much about that as manufacturers tend to not produce odd-ball loads that would ill-perform in most guns on the market. It may be that CNC manufacturing tolerances have improved enough that manufacturers do not take such a big risk guaranteeing 1 MOA for their rifles as more and more seem to be doing (and top quality German manufacturers never had the issue to begin with ;-). I have always suspected that the human element (including unconscious likes/dislikes) has much more impact on precision and accuracy than mechanical considerations with modern production rifle/ammo.

+1 on PPU too. It is my brand of choice for inexpensive practice ammo. My sons and I probably shoot a few hundreds per year at steel plates for round-the-year pre-season practice. And two weeks ago, my youngest son even used the PPU 7 mm Rem Mag 174 gr soft point on his first cow elk with perfect result: 1 shot at 175 yd. Lights out. He shoots a Win 70 Stainless Classic that also groups well pretty much anything he stuffs up the pipe.

 

[DWB]

But what @Kopskoot doesn't tell you is that he has since retired the 375 and am now using nothing smaller than his 450Rigby put prefers his 577NE!

 

[One Day...]

Ha, ha, ha, that makes complete sense to me. In an earlier post toward the top of the page I was saying:

"And to further confuse the issue (LOL), I will hasten to add that I left the .375 bandwagon in favor of the .416 bandwagon when CZ finally "resurrected" the field-grade .416 Rigby, and that, anyway, I hunt buff with a Kreighoff .470 NE double. The rationale (?) to the .416 madness being that if there is a genuine point (?) about up-gunning the .375 to 350 gr bullets, then I guess that 400 gr .416 are even better. The rationale (?) to the .470 madness being that I just like the 'romance' of the big double..."