Africa Hunting and a Marlin .444!

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Just found this video.I know this isn't the norm but I wouldn't want to be a guy with a .444 in my hands when this goes down. This buff was hit 8 times, some of them solid good hits with a .416 Remington, a .458 Lott and a .500 NE. A .444 might not be all that effective as the buffalo rounds the bend.

@ChrisG
I like that some of them were good hits but the majority of them were shit.
A friend of mine was charged by a water buff after he had just shot another one. The first one was dead with one shot. The other charged. Fortunately he had reloaded and the rifle was still in a position to react quickly. By the time he knew what was happening and shouldered the rifle all he could see thru the scope was one eye and half the head. He fired one shot and the buff skidded to a halt at his feet.
This was done with his 358 Mitchell Express which has a bit less power than the Whelen. Not the ideal weapon but it goes to show what can be done if you dont have an option.
Everyone seems to bag the 444 marlin but IF loaded with a game appropriate bullet like the solid or a 320 grain hardcast and a cool hunter I can't see a problem. There is a guide in the Northern Territory who uses a 444 marlin as his back up gun when hunting with clients. His theory is if I can't stop it with the RIGHT bullet in the head I need to give up.
There are people hunting with the 444 with 400grain hard cast at 1,600 fps and the penetration of that bullet has to be seen to be believed. There is a you tube video showing a penetration of 20 one gallon jugs and the bullet still going thru the hardwood backstop.
Penetration is not the issue if it will do that.
Does it have the energy to stop a change probably not. Does it have enough mass and penetration to enter the brain or smash the spine YES.
Using a 444 marlin on buffalo may not be wise to most BUT if the hunter is using the right load, has confidence in themselves and there weapon and can use it with effect and keep a cool head in adverse conditions I would say yes do it. If you can't answer all the questions with a yes forget it.
Just my 2 cents worth from a old fart.
How many have actually used a 444 on game. I have and know what it will do.
Bob

 

[freefall]

I realize I'm just a dumb swamp-billy but I think I've seen as much large/ dangerous game as a lot of you guys, and I would not be screaming in panic in that situation if I were armed with my Marlin .45-70 full of 430 grn hardcast at 1800 fps.
One good shot and you're home and dry, and thus far I have managed to shoot competently.

 

[WAB]

Just found this video.I know this isn't the norm but I wouldn't want to be a guy with a .444 in my hands when this goes down. This buff was hit 8 times, some of them solid good hits with a .416 Remington, a .458 Lott and a .500 NE. A .444 might not be all that effective as the buffalo rounds the bend.

That’s Len Taylor, one of the best. Note how he waits to let the hunter have every chance to finish the business on his own. Len’s second shot went through the right eye of the bull.

 

[WAB]

It was a 500 grain solid at 2300 fps (Len’s barrel is cut to 20”) that finished the argument. I don’t know what a 430 at 1800 would do as I haven’t tried it.

 

[hawkeyesatx]

@ChrisG
I like that some of them were good hits but the majority of them were shit.
A friend of mine was charged by a water buff after he had just shot another one. The first one was dead with one shot. The other charged. Fortunately he had reloaded and the rifle was still in a position to react quickly. By the time he knew what was happening and shouldered the rifle all he could see thru the scope was one eye and half the head. He fired one shot and the buff skidded to a halt at his feet.
This was done with his 358 Mitchell Express which has a bit less power than the Whelen. Not the ideal weapon but it goes to show what can be done if you dont have an option.
Everyone seems to bag the 444 marlin but IF loaded with a game appropriate bullet like the solid or a 320 grain hardcast and a cool hunter I can't see a problem. There is a guide in the Northern Territory who uses a 444 marlin as his back up gun when hunting with clients. His theory is if I can't stop it with the RIGHT bullet in the head I need to give up.
There are people hunting with the 444 with 400grain hard cast at 1,600 fps and the penetration of that bullet has to be seen to be believed. There is a you tube video showing a penetration of 20 one gallon jugs and the bullet still going thru the hardwood backstop.
Penetration is not the issue if it will do that.
Does it have the energy to stop a change probably not. Does it have enough mass and penetration to enter the brain or smash the spine YES.
Using a 444 marlin on buffalo may not be wise to most BUT if the hunter is using the right load, has confidence in themselves and there weapon and can use it with effect and keep a cool head in adverse conditions I would say yes do it. If you can't answer all the questions with a yes forget it.
Just my 2 cents worth from a old fart.
How many have actually used a 444 on game. I have and know what it will do.
Bob

I’m right there with you Bob.
I’m of the opinion, that if you use the .444 Marlin properly, that it shoots above its weight class.
Just last year, there was an elk hunter here in Alaska that got his elk, and was just starting to gut it, when out of a thicket, a nasty Kodak Brown Bear came charging at him full speed, within 200 yds. The only load he had was his hand loaded 265 gr Hornady load, and it was pushing around 2200 fps. He shot that bear, and knocked it on its ass first shot! The bear stood up, acting like it was drunk, and the hunter shot it again, killed it right there, within 100 yds!
I believe, as well, a decent 320gr to 350gr solid or hardcast gas check will more than do its part if properly placed in a .444 Marlin.
The 405gr bullets can be sped along at quite impressive speeds, and will penetrate like there is no tomorrow.


Hawk

 

[WAB]

I’m right there with you Bob.
I’m of the opinion, that if you use the .444 Marlin properly, that it shoots above its weight class.
Just last year, there was an elk hunter here in Alaska that got his elk, and was just starting to gut it, when out of a thicket, a nasty Kodak Brown Bear came charging at him full speed, within 200 yds. The only load he had was his hand loaded 265 gr Hornady load, and it was pushing around 2200 fps. He shot that bear, and knocked it on its ass first shot! The bear stood up, acting like it was drunk, and the hunter shot it again, killed it right there, within 100 yds!
I believe, as well, a decent 320gr to 350gr solid or hardcast gas check will more than do its part if properly placed in a .444 Marlin.
The 405gr bullets can be sped along at quite impressive speeds, and will penetrate like there is no tomorrow.


Hawk

Be careful extrapolating performance on a brown bear to a Cape buffalo. Having shot a number of both, I can assure you that the buff will take far more punishment.

 

[Red Leg]

Be careful extrapolating performance on a brown bear to a Cape buffalo. Having shot a number of both, I can assure you that the buff will take far more punishment.

I was about to suggest - what does that have to do with a cape buffalo?

 

[IvW]

I’m right there with you Bob.
I’m of the opinion, that if you use the .444 Marlin properly, that it shoots above its weight class.
Just last year, there was an elk hunter here in Alaska that got his elk, and was just starting to gut it, when out of a thicket, a nasty Kodak Brown Bear came charging at him full speed, within 200 yds. The only load he had was his hand loaded 265 gr Hornady load, and it was pushing around 2200 fps. He shot that bear, and knocked it on its ass first shot! The bear stood up, acting like it was drunk, and the hunter shot it again, killed it right there, within 100 yds!
I believe, as well, a decent 320gr to 350gr solid or hardcast gas check will more than do its part if properly placed in a .444 Marlin.
The 405gr bullets can be sped along at quite impressive speeds, and will penetrate like there is no tomorrow.


Hawk

Brown bears at 100 yards are not compareable to cape buffalo at 20 yards or less....

 

[Tundra Tiger]

Hawk, I do not doubt your story but cannot find it. I don't remember seeing anything about it in the news up here, last year or in any recent year - can you provide a link? I'd love to know more.

Frankly, shooting a bear as a DLP sort of thing at 100-200 yards... that sounds like inexperience on the part of the hunter. That's a hunting range, not a save your ass range. Even if the bear was on the move, that's still a ways out, though there could have been other factors in play. I have never been charged by a bear, but I've been close, with them knowing I'm there, many times, and I have train yearly on bears and bear protection for my job. That is a lot farther than we're taught to engage in a lethal manner. Again, it would be interesting to know the circumstances to have a better idea of why it unfolded in the way it did.

 

[WAB]

Hawk, I do not doubt your story but cannot find it. I don't remember seeing anything about it in the news up here, last year or in any recent year - can you provide a link? I'd love to know more.

Frankly, shooting a bear as a DLP sort of thing at 100-200 yards... that sounds like inexperience on the part of the hunter. That's a hunting range, not a save your ass range. Even if the bear was on the move, that's still a ways out, though there could have been other factors in play. I have never been charged by a bear, but I've been close, with them knowing I'm there, many times, and I have train yearly on bears and bear protection for my job. That is a lot farther than we're taught to engage in a lethal manner. Again, it would be interesting to know the circumstances to have a better idea of why it unfolded in the way it did.

You are right TT, it’s gonna be hard to get a DLP ruling if that rascal is 100+ yards away. Friends in Kenai regularly hunt raspberry island for elk. The brown bear there are known To be particularly aggressive, kinda like Hinchinbrook. May have been a dinner bell bear. .

 

[ChrisG]

An interesting observation I have noted is that there is a lot of proposing that a 4xx grain .444, 458 etc. Bullet at 1,600, 1,700 or 1,800 fps is highly effective and penetrates like a tiger tank round. But aren't those EXACT ballistics, with projectiles that are tougher than a hard cast bullet, the reason that the .458 win mag developed such a terrible reputation on dangerous game?

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

An interesting observation I have noted is that there is a lot of proposing that a 4xx grain .444, 458 etc. Bullet at 1,600, 1,700 or 1,800 fps is highly effective and penetrates like a tiger tank round. But aren't those EXACT ballistics, with projectiles that are tougher than a hard cast bullet, the reason that the .458 win mag developed such a terrible reputation on dangerous game?

@ChrisG
I would have loved to try the 400s in my 444 as I had no real cartridge overall length to worry about like the marlin, plus my action was stronger and it had a 1 in 20 twist. Unfortunately I sold it to finance my Whelen project.
Bob.

I know it doesn't look like a 444 marlin but it is. It's built on a No4 SMLE action

 

[hawkeyesatx]

Just for gee wiz purposes, I want to share some real world bullet weights and velocities, and muzzle energies from said bullet weights, all Bear Tooth Bullets, and from a Marlin 444 S, with a 22 inch barrel, and Ballard Rifling 1 in 20 inch twist:


325 gr Lead Hard Cast Gas Check
2284 fps, me 3658 ft-lbs

330 gr Lead Hard Cast Gas Check
2244 fps, me 3691 ft-lbs

355 gr Lead Hard Cast Gas Check
2154 fps, me 3766 ft-lbs

405 gr Lead Hard Cast Gas Check
1837 fps, me 3036 ft-lbs

So, as you can see, the 444 Marlin cartridge is anything but anemic, and can be equal in velocities to the .45-70 1895 Marlin loads, and actually beating the velocities of the grand old cartridge by 100 - 200 fps in some instances.


I’m sorry to say, but the news article about the gentleman that was hunting and had to fend off the Kodiak Bear isn’t around any more.


Hawk

 

[Catahoula]

Just for gee wiz purposes, I want to share some real world bullet weights and velocities, and muzzle energies from said bullet weights, all Bear Tooth Bullets, and from a Marlin 444 S, with a 22 inch barrel, and Ballard Rifling 1 in 20 inch twist:


325 gr Lead Hard Cast Gas Check
2284 fps, me 3658 ft-lbs

330 gr Lead Hard Cast Gas Check
2244 fps, me 3691 ft-lbs

355 gr Lead Hard Cast Gas Check
2154 fps, me 3766 ft-lbs

405 gr Lead Hard Cast Gas Check
1837 fps, me 3036 ft-lbs

So, as you can see, the 444 Marlin cartridge is anything but anemic, and can be equal in velocities to the .45-70 1895 Marlin loads, and actually beating the velocities of the grand old cartridge by 100 - 200 fps in some instances.


I’m sorry to say, but the news article about the gentleman that was hunting and had to fend off the Kodiak Bear isn’t around any more.


Hawk

Thanks for sharing this. I’ve got a supply of the Beartooth 355 grain bullets for my 444.
I think this ballistic performance would be suitable for the big bears but would still question suitability for thick skinned (Cape buffalo) game. My experience on Buffalo totals one, taken with a 416 rem mag. I was impressed with the ability of these beasts to absorb lead. I suppose the 444 would work if the hunt was treated as a handgun hunt with perfect shot placement. I don’t have enough experience with hard cast bullets to intelligently discuss their usefulness on thick skinned game.
I have a Buffalo hunt booked for next year and the 444 is going along for plains game. If I had suitable bullets, I’d consider giving it a shot on Buffalo if my primary rifle wasn’t functioning and the PH was ok with it.

 

[hawkeyesatx]

Thanks for sharing this. I’ve got a supply of the Beartooth 355 grain bullets for my 444.
I think this ballistic performance would be suitable for the big bears but would still question suitability for thick skinned (Cape buffalo) game. My experience on Buffalo totals one, taken with a 416 rem mag. I was impressed with the ability of these beasts to absorb lead. I suppose the 444 would work if the hunt was treated as a handgun hunt with perfect shot placement. I don’t have enough experience with hard cast bullets to intelligently discuss their usefulness on thick skinned game.
I have a Buffalo hunt booked for next year and the 444 is going along for plains game. If I had suitable bullets, I’d consider giving it a shot on Buffalo if my primary rifle wasn’t functioning and the PH was ok with it.

When I started this post, my original intention was that the .444 Marlin can be used quite well on the plains game, up to the largest ones.
My original intent was, also, that in a pinch, that the .444 Marlin can be used to defend yourself against leopard, and lion, without sweating unnecessarily and stressing out about it.
The above velocities were obtained by using Hodgdon H335, H322, and Alliant RL-7 powders.

If for some reason I were charged by a Water Buffalo, and the .444 was what I had at the moment, I wouldn’t hesitate in using it.


Hawk

 

[Catahoula]

When I started this post, my original intention was that the .444 Marlin can be used quite well on the plains game, up to the largest ones.
My original intent was, also, that in a pinch, that the .444 Marlin can be used to defend yourself against leopard, and lion, without sweating unnecessarily and stressing out about it.
The above velocities were obtained by using Hodgdon H335, H322, and Alliant RL-7 powders.

If for some reason I were charged by a Water Buffalo, and the .444 was what I had at the moment, I wouldn’t hesitate in using it.


Hawk

I agree, within a reasonable range, the 444 is up to any plains game, and probably the thin skinned dangerous game. The 355 cast at reasonable velocities should completely penetrate on a broadside shot on plains game up to and including eland under most field conditions.

I’m getting an average of 2070 FPS with the 355 grain cast in my Winchester, but could probably push them a little faster. If there were a 350 grain A Frame that could still be pushed at those velocities (highly unlikely with a jacketed bullet) I think Buffalo would be fair game as well. I just don’t have enough cast bullet experience to know how these would perform on something as tough as Buffalo.

 

[IvW]

May sort out a leopard, on lion the only chance you may have is if you hit the brain as for water buffalo I have no idea but they are alot more docile than Cape buffalo and trust me when a Cape buffalo charges I would not want a 444 Marlin in my hands....
The notion that a visiting hunter will need to protect himself against leopard and lion is something that is not realistic in this day and age....no leopard will bother you and bumping into lions will 99% of the time result in them sneaking off like a dog that did something wrong and if you get a mock charge it will be exciting but just that a mock charge that the guide will handle without any issues...

For PG it should work well at close range and good shot placement.

 

[IvW]

A 444 Marlin may be a useful caliber, would be fun on pg, it is a poor choice as a DG caliber for Africa...just my opinion...

 

[hawkeyesatx]

I agree, within a reasonable range, the 444 is up to any plains game, and probably the thin skinned dangerous game. The 355 cast at reasonable velocities should completely penetrate on a broadside shot on plains game up to and including eland under most field conditions.

I’m getting an average of 2070 FPS with the 355 grain cast in my Winchester, but could probably push them a little faster. If there were a 350 grain A Frame that could still be pushed at those velocities (highly unlikely with a jacketed bullet) I think Buffalo would be fair game as well. I just don’t have enough cast bullet experience to know how these would perform on something as tough as Buffalo.

The lead hard cast act very much like solids, and deform a little when hitting something substantial.
The wide flat nose dumps a lot of energy into the animal when shooting, and will create a lot of hydrostatic shock as well.


Hawk

 

[Tundra Tiger]

I don't know if the line is a bit blurred for anyone else, and maybe someone said something and I missed it, but hunting with a caliber and using that caliber to turn an angered animal are two very different things. Personally, for me, based on my buffalo hunt with my .45-70, would I hunt buffalo with a .444? Yeah, I would... within a very strict set of parameters. Would either of those calibers excite me about stopping a charging buff? As the old phrase goes, they are better than a stick, but no, those would not be my choices. I sometimes hunt brown bears with calibers I KNOW will kill them, but they might not be the best choices to stop a charge. That said, I am often hunting with a friend who has a much larger caliber. This fall I will hunt with a bow. I have every bit of confidence that my arrow and broadhead will kill a bear, and hope to have proof of that in a little over a month. But nobody's stopping a charging anything with a bow.

Last year a gun author had an article about the .475 Turnbull. His opinion was it was fine for buffalo and turned a charging buff he shot (he shot it six times). He did mention his PH shot it twice with whatever he was carrying, which while I don't recall what it was, was something much larger and I have to believe that had an impact on the outcome as well. I remember reading that article and wondering if my mature cow was just that much "softer" that I was able to kill her so fast with one shot. I don't know, but I wondered about it.

Anyway, yes for me to hunting with a .444. I'd likely go with something like that solid brass I used, after watching how it worked. But I'd surely want my PH there with something big and bad just in case.

My two cents, and in Biden's America probably worth even less.