Africa Hunting and a Marlin .444!

So why would you hunt DG with a caliber that you cannot use to stop it if it charges? Hunting DG in Africa is not always a text book afair....
Makes no sense to use something that is only marginally good enough for a perfect shot....
Personally I would not use a marginal anything on DG...
 
So why would you hunt DG with a caliber that you cannot use to stop it if it charges? Hunting DG in Africa is not always a text book afair....
Makes no sense to use something that is only marginally good enough for a perfect shot....
Personally I would not use a marginal anything on DG...
The same can be said about hunting DG with a bow and arrows
 
Please don't read anything into me asking this, but... why hunt at all then? "So why would you hunt DG with a caliber that you cannot use to stop it if it charges?" We all have things that appeal to us as challenges. And I guess in my mind, everything carries a level of risk. Even a very, very large stopping caliber doesn't absolutely guarantee it'll end things well, if things go bad. For example, I feel very good about my 12 gauge with slugs against brown bears, if things go sideways while camping or hunting. But I also acknowledge it's not ironclad. The only way to make a bear situation ironclad is to stay home and not go. I plan to bear hunt with a bow next month. I will have a sidearm for "just in case". I feel at peace about my chances for success (hunting, having fun, not getting eaten by a bear, maybe killing a bear), and that the level of risk is acceptable, or I wouldn't go. We've all got to decide what that acceptable level is for ourselves. You likely have things in your life you do based on a decision of acceptable risk that I might not do. Also, I get what you might be thinking about it could involve other people (PH, tracker) and that is something else to consider. At the end of the day, for myself with my .45-70 (as opposed to the OP with his .444), I had frank discussions with my PH ahead of hunting, and he was comfortable with and OK'd me using the rifle and ammunition I did. I gave it a LOT of thought, consideration, and planning before deciding to go the route I did, and I didn't go into it willy-nilly.

I do very much value perspectives like yours. When I research something I haven't done and I'm considering doing, I try to find a full spectrum of experiences to consider. There's no sense in looking for "yes" answers and not considering all viewpoints, IMHO.
 
So why would you hunt DG with a caliber that you cannot use to stop it if it charges? Hunting DG in Africa is not always a text book afair....
Makes no sense to use something that is only marginally good enough for a perfect shot....
Personally I would not use a marginal anything on DG...

The general (but split) consensus on this forum in the past has been a 375 is not a true "stopping" cartridge either.

You put a 1/2" hole and drive it 5-6 feet, that's going to cause a considerable amount of damage. The physical reaction to a chest shot probably is minor, but it appears so is a 375 relative to the cartridges beginning with 4. You hit one in the brain or spine, you are certainly going to know it.

This all being said, the 444 marlin heavy loads from Buffalo Bore are considerably weaker than the 45/70 and 450 marlin by 500 ft lbs. I think a Browning BLR in 450 marlin would be the best choice in these types of questions and cartridges (if one is going to proceed with these types). A hammer safety that can in no way touch the firing pin without the trouble that can come with a Marlin type button safety. 4 rounds in the rifle and two 3 round spare magazines --- seems better than trying to load them one by in the gate.

I agree it's not ideal though
 
375 has and will for a long time kill more DG than a 444 Marlin could even dream of...
A proper 375 expanding bullet will cause a lot more damage than a hard cast .429 at 1800fps will..

And yes sure each can use what they want and what rocks the boat and what they prefer.

Personally I prefer something with a bit more track record, the problem with buffalo is when you get a perfect shot then things are a lot more achieveable with a marginal caliber, unfortuanately that is rarely the case....once you bump a herd and keep following the adrenaline is up shots offered are rarely ideal or perfect in which case you need a caliber that allows you to take a less than ideal shot or have the restraint not to.

Buffalo can take an awfull amount of lead if the first shot does not get the job done.
 
Please don't read anything into me asking this, but... why hunt at all then? "So why would you hunt DG with a caliber that you cannot use to stop it if it charges?" We all have things that appeal to us as challenges. And I guess in my mind, everything carries a level of risk. Even a very, very large stopping caliber doesn't absolutely guarantee it'll end things well, if things go bad. For example, I feel very good about my 12 gauge with slugs against brown bears, if things go sideways while camping or hunting. But I also acknowledge it's not ironclad. The only way to make a bear situation ironclad is to stay home and not go. I plan to bear hunt with a bow next month. I will have a sidearm for "just in case". I feel at peace about my chances for success (hunting, having fun, not getting eaten by a bear, maybe killing a bear), and that the level of risk is acceptable, or I wouldn't go. We've all got to decide what that acceptable level is for ourselves. You likely have things in your life you do based on a decision of acceptable risk that I might not do. Also, I get what you might be thinking about it could involve other people (PH, tracker) and that is something else to consider. At the end of the day, for myself with my .45-70 (as opposed to the OP with his .444), I had frank discussions with my PH ahead of hunting, and he was comfortable with and OK'd me using the rifle and ammunition I did. I gave it a LOT of thought, consideration, and planning before deciding to go the route I did, and I didn't go into it willy-nilly.

I do very much value perspectives like yours. When I research something I haven't done and I'm considering doing, I try to find a full spectrum of experiences to consider. There's no sense in looking for "yes" answers and not considering all viewpoints, IMHO.
@Tundra Tiger
Well said mate. Discussion with your PH is always a good idea. After seeing how my Whelen performed on plains game and talking with my PH he would have been more than happy taking me out after buffalo with it. In his opinion it was every bit as good as the 9.3x62 so he couldn't see any problems.
Bob
 
CEH said "Yeah, one needs at least a 10mm pistol backed up with a scoped crossbow?"
You have a scope on your crossbow? I am jealous!

As a kid, I tried a cross bow and went back to my Daisy Pump BB gun.
 
CEH said "Yeah, one needs at least a 10mm pistol backed up with a scoped crossbow?"
You have a scope on your crossbow? I am jealous!

As a kid, I tried a cross bow and went back to my Daisy Pump BB gun.
crs,
Well, I don't own a crossbow, so no need to be jealous. Here, one can only hunt big game with a crossbow during rifle season, so no point in owning one. But apparently in Africa, one can hunt buffalo with bows, crossbows, 10mm pistols, spears, .35 Whelens, etc.? I wouldn't, but then again I'm not as quick on my feet as I used to be, and the trees seem so much more difficult to climb than I remember, so ......?
CEH
 
Now, it just amazes me how the 9.3x62, can be such a great cartridge, where as the 444 Marlin gets dumped on. I mean, granted, early on I know the 444 Marlin got a bad wrap because all that was available were pistol bullets to shoot out of it. But that has changed with the faster twist Ballard rifling for it. It can now use heavier, better SD bullets, that can, dare I say it, equal the venerable 9.3x62! Let’s take a look at the ballistics between the 2:

9.3×62 load of a 286 grain bullet at 2,350 fps (3,507 ft-lbs of energy)

444 Marlin load of a 290 grain bullet at 2325 fps (3482 ft-lbs of energy)

9.3x62 load of a 325 grain bullet at 2200 fps (3494 ft-lbs of energy)

444 Marlin load of a 325 grain bullet at 2284 fps (3766 ft-lbs of energy)

444 Marlin load of a 330 grain bullet at 2204 fps (3560 ft-lbs of energy)

444 Marlin load of a 355 grain bullet at 2154 fps (3658 ft-lbs of energy)

Oooo! Uh! What am I seeing here?!?


Hawk
 
?????

Where are you getting those numbers? Those energy numbers are WAY over Buffalo Bore's numbers, and I tend to think of his as near the top hot for lever calibers. His highest listed is 3078 ft-pds.
 
?????

Where are you getting those numbers? Those energy numbers are WAY over Buffalo Bore's numbers, and I tend to think of his as near the top hot for lever calibers. His highest listed is 3078 ft-pds.

I’m getting the 444 Marlin info from the Bear Tooth bullet sight itself, from hand load data they published, using an actual Marlin 444 SS rifle, with a 22 inch barrel 1 in 20 twist Ballard rifled bore.
Just because Buffalo Bore has published data doesn’t mean it’s the only ball game in town.


Hawk
 
Sectional Density!
The same reason a 300 grain bullet out of a 375 at 2500 is a good choice for DG, but a 300 grain bullet out of a 458 win mag at 2500 is a poor choice.
To quote Capstick
“Apparently the Buffalo did not read the energy charts.”

I can definitely say that the Bear Tooth Bullets have plenty of sectional density when it comes to the hard cast RIFLE bullets, and not the pistol bullets that everyone seems to think the 444 Marlin shoots only.

Hawk
 
Now, it just amazes me how the 9.3x62, can be such a great cartridge, where as the 444 Marlin gets dumped on. I mean, granted, early on I know the 444 Marlin got a bad wrap because all that was available were pistol bullets to shoot out of it. But that has changed with the faster twist Ballard rifling for it. It can now use heavier, better SD bullets, that can, dare I say it, equal the venerable 9.3x62! Let’s take a look at the ballistics between the 2:

9.3×62 load of a 286 grain bullet at 2,350 fps (3,507 ft-lbs of energy)

444 Marlin load of a 290 grain bullet at 2325 fps (3482 ft-lbs of energy)

9.3x62 load of a 325 grain bullet at 2200 fps (3494 ft-lbs of energy)

444 Marlin load of a 325 grain bullet at 2284 fps (3766 ft-lbs of energy)

444 Marlin load of a 330 grain bullet at 2204 fps (3560 ft-lbs of energy)

444 Marlin load of a 355 grain bullet at 2154 fps (3658 ft-lbs of energy)

Oooo! Uh! What am I seeing here?!?


Hawk
@hawkeyesatx
People ar looking more at sectional density than the actual projectiles.
The SD of all projectiles changes as soon as it starts to expand so a 9.3 with a 286gn soft point that expands to 12mm and retains 250 grains is going to have a craps SD.
a 444 tat expands to 13 mm and retains 250 of its 280 grains is in the same boat.
To me to much importance is placed on SD and not enough on bullet construction.
It's the same as BC I'm not shooting at 600 yards so a 0.7 bc is no use to me hunting at 300 yards, a 0.3 is good enough.
People read to much into SDs and BCs for every day hunting. Yes they are a guide but not the be all and end all.
Bob
 
Sectional Densities for the bullet weights listed above in the 444 Marlin:

325 gr Hard Cast Lead Gas Check
.249 SD

330 gr Hard Cast Lead Gas Check
.253 SD

355 gr Hard Cast Lead Gas Check
.272 SD

Plus one that hasn’t been
mentioned:

405 gr Hard Cast Lead Gas Check
.310 SD


Hawk
 

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