Africa Hunting and a Marlin .444!

[Brian]

Or this 335 grain Raptor?

No

 

[Brian]

IvW,
Ah-ha! I like your style. If I use it I will write a report. Cheers, brian

 

[shark_za]

From what I have seen the .444 will do everything my 45-70 did and then some.
On thin skinned game in thick bush I would be happy to shoot anything up to Eland with a good bullet.

This is where the thing starts to fall flat and why its not a dangerous game rifle,
If you have had a lever gun jam on you then you know it almost requires tools to get it unstuck.

 

[Brian]

Here are some articles on the .444 that might explain it better, and clear the air a little more.

https://www.handloadermagazine.com/444-marlin

.444 Marlin

History, performance, factory and hand load data

www.ballisticstudies.com

I, for one, realize that the .444 Marlin has had a bad reputation from unscrupulous hunters who think that short, 240 gr .44 Mag bullets are the best thing since sliced bread. I can honestly say, that those who use the .44 Mag bullets are destined for heartache and sorrow when it comes to hunting heavier game than the average deer.
Properly hand loaded, with heavier projectiles, and longer projectiles, that increase the SD of the .430 caliber are well suited to my Marlin 1895, with 1 in 20 inch Ballard Rifling. It will handle the longer, heavier bullets, from 300 gr to 400 gr with aplomb.
It will also shoot the same bullet weights in the .45-70 at the same velocities as the .45-70, if not a little faster.
For me, I am an ethical hunter. With saying that, I wouldn’t want my quarry to suffer unnecessarily.
So for me, going after the bigger animals, whether it be here in North America, or Africa, excluding Elephants, I would use the heavy for caliber hardcast 335 gr Bear Tooth gas check bullet, to 350 gr same bullet.
As what was said in The Ballistic Studies, what helps the newer rendition of the .444 Marlin chambering while using said heavyweight bullets, is the hydraulic effect of the speed of the bullet along with the frontal area of the bullet to create a 1.5 inch wound throughout a big animal.
I do know, from seeing my friend who uses his to hunt anything from mice to moose, that when he uses it within its limitations, and he shot a moose broadside, that when the moose was shot, it looked like it was hit on top of the head with a 25 pound sledge hammer. When we gutted the animal, the wound channel was excessive, and the bullet exited on the offside, and made a hole the size of 2 fists side by side. That was my fists, and I have big hands.
But, anyways, I digress.
Does any of this info change anyone else’s mind?


Hawk

Hawk,
What you say is the same as what I have seen with a few cape buffalo kills. As I say I got into these CEB bullets and NorthFork bullets after talking to Michael and Sam at B&M Rifles and Cartridges. They are part of a group of guys who have killed hundreds of buff in Australia and Africa, while developing this bullet. The call it the "Non-com" bullet.
You, especially would enjoy that site. There awesome other DG bullets of similar design to the CEB and NF Solids, but I have not used them. The wide flat nose is an important factor for straight, deep, penetration and huge wound channel even though it looks like it would not work worth a darn. Also the 13deg. ogive is part of the trick.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Here are some articles on the .444 that might explain it better, and clear the air a little more.

https://www.handloadermagazine.com/444-marlin

.444 Marlin

History, performance, factory and hand load data

www.ballisticstudies.com

I, for one, realize that the .444 Marlin has had a bad reputation from unscrupulous hunters who think that short, 240 gr .44 Mag bullets are the best thing since sliced bread. I can honestly say, that those who use the .44 Mag bullets are destined for heartache and sorrow when it comes to hunting heavier game than the average deer.
Properly hand loaded, with heavier projectiles, and longer projectiles, that increase the SD of the .430 caliber are well suited to my Marlin 1895, with 1 in 20 inch Ballard Rifling. It will handle the longer, heavier bullets, from 300 gr to 400 gr with aplomb.
It will also shoot the same bullet weights in the .45-70 at the same velocities as the .45-70, if not a little faster.
For me, I am an ethical hunter. With saying that, I wouldn’t want my quarry to suffer unnecessarily.
So for me, going after the bigger animals, whether it be here in North America, or Africa, excluding Elephants, I would use the heavy for caliber hardcast 335 gr Bear Tooth gas check bullet, to 350 gr same bullet.
As what was said in The Ballistic Studies, what helps the newer rendition of the .444 Marlin chambering while using said heavyweight bullets, is the hydraulic effect of the speed of the bullet along with the frontal area of the bullet to create a 1.5 inch wound throughout a big animal.
I do know, from seeing my friend who uses his to hunt anything from mice to moose, that when he uses it within its limitations, and he shot a moose broadside, that when the moose was shot, it looked like it was hit on top of the head with a 25 pound sledge hammer. When we gutted the animal, the wound channel was excessive, and the bullet exited on the offside, and made a hole the size of 2 fists side by side. That was my fists, and I have big hands.
But, anyways, I digress.
Does any of this info change anyone else’s mind?


Hawk

@hawkeyesatx
The 240 grain xtp give a good but shallow wound channel on pigs but when you step up to the 265s it turns ithe 444 into a different animal. The 280s to 300 ate better again and when you step up to 320s it different again. I loaded some to play with at the range. In my No4 SMLE conversion I sas able to seat the bullet out further and stoke the fire up under them the first shot got your attention and left a hole in the bank you could use as a rabbit warren. After 6 shots it was the size of a wombat hole. Shit they hit hard.
The last one went through a 10 inch box gum leaving a biggg hole out the VV other side on a mates farm. No problems with penetration.
Regrettably sold it to build my whelen.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

This site is very interesting. The design of the Cutting Edge Bullets and Northfork solid bullets are a result of several years of prudent research an hundreds of buffalo kills in Africa and Australia.
Enjoy, Brian

@Brian
For heavier projectiles in the 444 I used adi 2219/ H322 it gives the 280s and over a set of balls. Al my lighter loads I used 2207/H4198.
Bob

 

[Brian]

@Brian
For heavier projectiles in the 444 I used adi 2219/ H322 it gives the 280s and over a set of balls. Al my lighter loads I used 2207/H4198.
Bob

Bob, Thanks for the useful info! Brian

 

[sestoppelman]

@Dr Ray
We won't hold that against you doc.
It's just the Whelen is a bit better.
Bob
You m at have to try a Sako in the Whelen

I have to push back on this just a bit Bob. You may like the Whelen better, the Whelen is certainly more efficient; can do more with less, but the fact remains with its better bullet ballistics, and larger case capacity by more than just a few grains, the .338 has distinct advantages when both are loaded to the same pressures, max if you will. And you can load both rounds to the same CUP or PSI as the other in a strong modern rifle.
Inside a couple hundred yards, I doubt any animal would know the difference when hit by a top load from either round, but when you go beyond that the .338 will certainly carry its load better.
Load them both up to max with the same length of barrel and same bullet weights, the .338 will do everything the Whelen can and more with every bullet.
Here is a side by side pic of the two cases, the Whelen on the left with 73.6 grs of ball powder clear to the top to near overflow. Good luck seating a bullet on top of that. To the right, the same charge in the .338 case. It comes right to the juncture of body and shoulder, its so far down there its hard to see.
So again, you may like it better, but it isnt better. In many cases just as good, but not better.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I have to push back on this just a bit Bob. You may like the Whelen better, the Whelen is certainly more efficient; can do more with less, but the fact remains with its better bullet ballistics, and larger case capacity by more than just a few grains, the .338 has distinct advantages when both are loaded to the same pressures, max if you will. And you can load both rounds to the same CUP or PSI as the other in a strong modern rifle.
Inside a couple hundred yards, I doubt any animal would know the difference when hit by a top load from either round, but when you go beyond that the .338 will certainly carry its load better.
Load them both up to max with the same length of barrel and same bullet weights, the .338 will do everything the Whelen can and more with every bullet.
Here is a side by side pic of the two cases, the Whelen on the left with 73.6 grs of ball powder clear to the top to near overflow. Good luck seating a bullet on top of that. To the right, the same charge in the .338 case. It comes right to the juncture of body and shoulder, its so far down there its hard to see.
So again, you may like it better, but it isnt better. In many cases just as good, but not better.

View attachment 409867

@sestoppelman
Yes the 338 has more ballisticly efficient bullets and a higher SD. The 338 has more case capacity as well.
Consulting my reloading manuals the 338 is already running up near its peak pressure where as the Whelen is well below.
Loaded to the same pressure ther is diddly squat betwixt them out to sensible ranges, say to 300 yards.
But most people compare the undercoated Whelen with full house 338s and ther is no comparison.
For some unknown reason despite the milli poofteenth bore difference the Whelen just seems to hit harder and game seems to be more physically affected by the bullets impact. I could have something to do with bullet construction as the 338s have to be more heavily constructed to stand magnum velocities.
The Whelen on the other hand hasn't changed construction of 35 cal projectile for years because of its velocities.
I assume the 358s transfer every quicker than the 338s because of this difference. I may be wrong.
As you said loaded to the same pressures there is little difference between the two. The Whelen achieves this with less powder.
Both are good cartridges in there own right I just hapen to prefer the Whelen. Now you have a No1 ruger you can give it a go and form an opinion on a properly loaded Whelen and not the anaemic factory loads.
Try Speers 64 grains of CFE223 behind the 250 grain hotcore and notice the difference.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I have to push back on this just a bit Bob. You may like the Whelen better, the Whelen is certainly more efficient; can do more with less, but the fact remains with its better bullet ballistics, and larger case capacity by more than just a few grains, the .338 has distinct advantages when both are loaded to the same pressures, max if you will. And you can load both rounds to the same CUP or PSI as the other in a strong modern rifle.
Inside a couple hundred yards, I doubt any animal would know the difference when hit by a top load from either round, but when you go beyond that the .338 will certainly carry its load better.
Load them both up to max with the same length of barrel and same bullet weights, the .338 will do everything the Whelen can and more with every bullet.
Here is a side by side pic of the two cases, the Whelen on the left with 73.6 grs of ball powder clear to the top to near overflow. Good luck seating a bullet on top of that. To the right, the same charge in the .338 case. It comes right to the juncture of body and shoulder, its so far down there its hard to see.
So again, you may like it better, but it isnt better. In many cases just as good, but not better.

View attachment 409867

@sestoppelman

As you can see the 338 win mag is already loaded to 52,000 cup
I am loading my wheken to 52,000 cup so same pressures
The 338 with a 210 grain nos lk er accubond is showing 2,888 fps with a compressed load of 4831sc
The Whelen is doing the same speed with a 225 grain accubond with a non composed load and 2,950 fps with the Woodleighs.
Same pressures
With the 250s the Whelen does 2,700 fps with 64 grains of powder.
The 338 2,600 plus
Sorry figures don't lie but the Whelen shades the 338 by a fraction but not enough to worry about for all practical purposes.
Hopefully this will help you about pressures, velocities and other stuff that affects things.
The simple facts are the Whelen throws a 225 grainer faster than the the 338 throws a 210 grain and can equal and surpass it with a 250 grain.
Simples facts is facts.
Bob

 

[sestoppelman]

Book pressures are sort of meaningless Bob. One book says one thing, another says something else. I know you like to say that the .338 is already at max, but by what measure?
I have the same manual you show and it also shows the Whelen loaded to 52K and a speed of 2505 with the 250 Hornady RN.
So if you want to talk pressure lets do that. If it takes 52K to get that speed what does it take to add 200 fps to that speed per your loads? Hope you are not going to say 52K, as its well beyond that to get that speed in the smaller case.
So if its OK to load the Whelen to say 55 plus K then, it should be OK for the .338 to do the same right? Yes, it takes more powder to achieve the same results, but in the end that larger case will be able to produce more velocity than the smaller case.
The example above showing the 210 at 2888 fps uses H4831, one of the slower powders, but using a powder like R19 will yield better speed at similar pressure without being so compressed.
the manual we are using here does not show Alliant powders.
My No. 12 Speer book, (old I know) says their Whelen loads dont exceed 52K CUP and the top load shown has the 250 gr bullet at 2386 fps. So one can toss numbers back and forth all day and find the manual that best suits their position, but in the end, again I say.
A case with the amount of advantage in capacity that the .338 has over the Whelen is going to be the eventual winner in the race for speed.
I dont see how it works any other way, its rocket science!
"The simple facts are the Whelen throws a 225 grainer faster than the the 338 throws a 210 grain and can equal and surpass it with a 250 grain.
Simples facts is facts"

Only according to some figures and only if just totally discount powder capacity of the respective cases. If they had the same capacity then sure, the larger diameter gives a little better push. Though oddly enough I have seen .338-06 loads that equal or surpass Whelen loads, go figure.

 

[freefall]

But you can get 2 more Whelans into a standard box magazine which equates to a metric shit ton more horsepower when starting into an alder patch.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Book pressures are sort of meaningless Bob. One book says one thing, another says something else. I know you like to say that the .338 is already at max, but by what measure?
I have the same manual you show and it also shows the Whelen loaded to 52K and a speed of 2505 with the 250 Hornady RN.
So if you want to talk pressure lets do that. If it takes 52K to get that speed what does it take to add 200 fps to that speed per your loads? Hope you are not going to say 52K, as its well beyond that to get that speed in the smaller case.
So if its OK to load the Whelen to say 55 plus K then, it should be OK for the .338 to do the same right? Yes, it takes more powder to achieve the same results, but in the end that larger case will be able to produce more velocity than the smaller case.
The example above showing the 210 at 2888 fps uses H4831, one of the slower powders, but using a powder like R19 will yield better speed at similar pressure without being so compressed.
the manual we are using here does not show Alliant powders.
My No. 12 Speer book, (old I know) says their Whelen loads dont exceed 52K CUP and the top load shown has the 250 gr bullet at 2386 fps. So one can toss numbers back and forth all day and find the manual that best suits their position, but in the end, again I say.
A case with the amount of advantage in capacity that the .338 has over the Whelen is going to be the eventual winner in the race for speed.
I dont see how it works any other way, its rocket science!
"The simple facts are the Whelen throws a 225 grainer faster than the the 338 throws a 210 grain and can equal and surpass it with a 250 grain.
Simples facts is facts"

Only according to some figures and only if just totally discount powder capacity of the respective cases. If they had the same capacity then sure, the larger diameter gives a little better push. Though oddly enough I have seen .338-06 loads that equal or surpass Whelen loads, go figure.

@sestoppelman
How bout we agree to disagree. All this pissing in the wind a bout pressures, case capacity, thermodynamics and all the other bullshit isn't going to prove a thing.
Newer powders, different pressure curves and all that crap is all fine in a technical view. The loading manual I got the 338 pressures from doesnt list the Whelen. At 9ne time alliant said 59 grains of RL15 was fine behind the 250 grain for a touch over 2,500 fps. Now they have knocked it back to 52 grains for less than 2,300 fps so go figure.
Speer and nosler are both reputable in there reloading information and I don't think they would risk being sued over their information. I have verified their loads using MY rifle, others may vary but it doesn't mean they are wrong.
Both the Whelen and the 338 are good big game calibers suitable for 400 yards in the right hands and close enough in performance to be equal.
Bob

 

[sestoppelman]

My only real point of this is that one cannot discount or ignore the 15 percent case capacity advantage of the .338. If we do that then case size becomes meaningless in any discussion of potential. We have to accept the fact that a larger case, especially one with a substantial advantage makes a difference.

There is no need for a disagreement, simply the need to accept that one case is larger than the other by a fair amount and since potential velocity depends on powder capacity, well size matters.
I get that you are a fan of the Whelen, so am I and probably had one before you did, and several since, though I have never done what you have done with one so hats off for that.
But surely you can agree that powder capacity matters in any meaningful discussion of velocity potential. Thats what it really boils down to.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

My only real point of this is that one cannot discount or ignore the 15 percent case capacity advantage of the .338. If we do that then case size becomes meaningless in any discussion of potential. We have to accept the fact that a larger case, especially one with a substantial advantage makes a difference.

There is no need for a disagreement, simply the need to accept that one case is larger than the other by a fair amount and since potential velocity depends on powder capacity, well size matters.
I get that you are a fan of the Whelen, so am I and probably had one before you did, and several since, though I have never done what you have done with one so hats off for that.
But surely you can agree that powder capacity matters in any meaningful discussion of velocity potential. Thats what it really boils down to.

@sestoppelman
Yes powder capacity can make a difference.
Bob

 

[krish]

Maybe you could use a CEB solid or Raptor in your .444 Marlin for large, nasty game? I would use something bigger than the Marlin, but again, I'm too old to climb trees when the SHTF!

Funny again

 

[ChrisG]

Just found this video.I know this isn't the norm but I wouldn't want to be a guy with a .444 in my hands when this goes down. This buff was hit 8 times, some of them solid good hits with a .416 Remington, a .458 Lott and a .500 NE. A .444 might not be all that effective as the buffalo rounds the bend.

 

[JimP]

Just found this video.I know this isn't the norm but I wouldn't want to be a guy with a .444 in my hands when this goes down. This buff was hit 8 times, some of them solid good hits with a .416 Remington, a .458 Lott and a .500 NE. A .444 might not be all that effective as the buffalo rounds the bend.

Just goes to show that no matter what you are packing that when things go wrong things go wrong and it could turn into a rodeo real quick.

 

[ChrisG]

Just goes to show that no matter what you are packing that when things go wrong things go wrong and it could turn into a rodeo real quick.

Yeah. Even a .577 is only just over 1/4 sq.in. thats pretty tiny compared to a 1,300 lb buffalo.

 

[crs]

My, but do I feel at a disadvantage trying to compose a comment when dealing with shooters that know so much more than I about gun, bullets, powders, and shooting game animals. But I will try.
First, on the charging buff - "some of them solid good hits with a .416" . They may have hit something solid, but they did not drop the bull. Shot placement rules, and one shot between the eyes was all that should have been needed. A friend of mine was surprised by such a close range charge and put his bullet into the buffs brain and DRT with one shot.
2. In the above, there were a couple of condescending comments on rifle /bullet performance that seemed to me equaled the 450/400, and that has been proven as acceptable for large and dangerous game, so why not if the bullet comes from a different gun?
3. Also. without making so much fuss about sectional density, it is easy to find good effective bullets these days and you need not know how to compute SD to visualize how much better a 400 grain .411 bullet will penetrate than a .458 400 grain bullet, even if both are overkill for the game. I keep a couple of those on my reloading bench to remind me.
4. In fact, I may just take my .458 2.1 "good hog gun" out to the Boars Nest tomorrow. Maybe it will group better with the heavier bullets.