500 Express rifle question

[matt85]

I came across a double rifle chambered for 500 Express, with a somewhat strange regulating load.

The load shown on the bottom if the barrels is 68gr 570gr. 68gr of black powder with a 570gr bullet in a 3.25" case strikes me as strange because it would need quite a bit of filler. Its an unusually heavy bullet with an unusually light charge.

Thoughts?

 

[Huvius]

My guess that it is something of a nitro for black load or a “light cordite” load as they were known.
I see it’s a Jones under lever rifle so quite strong enough for a LC load all other requirements met.

 

[matt85]

My guess that it is something of a nitro for black load or a “light cordite” load as they were known.
I see it’s a Jones under lever rifle so quite strong enough for a LC load all other requirements met.

I could be wrong, but wouldn't it be marked as nitro proofed then?

 

[grand veneur]

What kind of rifle is this?

I cannot identify the proof marks as absolutely British because normally there are much more signs. Some appear to have been added later. Be careful with this rifle.

 

[Huvius]

I could be wrong, but wouldn't it be marked as nitro proofed then?

My thinking is that it is a 500BPE but later stamped with the 68 / 570 load. If it was done in England it would be reproofed as such.
What are more details on the rifle?
Hoyem mentions a 70gr cordite - 570gr bullet load but the usual load width the 570gr bullet was 80gr cordite.

 

[grand veneur]

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that someone put the marks on the rifle, no an official proof house.

 

[matt85]

Here is a link to the ad: https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...le-cased-.cfm?gun_id=103466401&contact_sent=1

It could easily be a new marking since the gun appears to have been "rebuilt" to a degree. But on the otherhand it doesnt look like anything was ground off.

 

[Huvius]

It is a good weight for a nitro rifle and a good looking gun as well.
I’d have to look at more 500s from the era to form a solid opinion of the stamps on the flats.

 

[PCC600]

I came across a double rifle chambered for 500 Express, with a somewhat strange regulating load.

The load shown on the bottom if the barrels is 68gr 570gr. 68gr of black powder with a 570gr bullet in a 3.25" case strikes me as strange because it would need quite a bit of filler. Its an unusually heavy bullet with an unusually light charge.
View attachment 754489

Thoughts?

This rifle appears to have metal missing off the Purdey bites . Lyon & Lyon rifles of this type would likely have come from Birmingham but no Birmingham proof marks .

 

[A.M. Little]

This rifle appears to have metal missing off the Purdey bites . Lyon & Lyon rifles of this type would likely have come from Birmingham but no Birmingham proof marks .

What you are seeing is typical for Jones underlever lumps.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

This is a page I collected from a 1926 Kynoch catalog a few years ago (apologies for the red & green marks; I was looking for information on another caliber at the time).

Like @grand veneur , I am having a very difficult time identifying the caliber. It’s definitely not listed on any of my vintage catalogs.

I wonder if this rifle spent any time in post 1947 India ? Tree shade gunsmiths over there are notorious for falsifying proof marks on different firearms (which at first glance APPEAR to be authentic but upon in-depth inspection show some serious fallacies).

The reason I say this, is because somebody punched post 1950 Birmingham style date codes on a non-Nitro Proof rifle (which I seriously doubt any British manufacturer would be building after the First World War; let alone the Second).

 

[matt85]

I am having a very difficult time identifying the caliber. It’s definitely not listed on any of my vintage catalogs.

To my knowledge prior to the wide spread use of smokeless powder, "500 Express" would have been the correct name for the "500 Black Powder Express".

At a glance the gun appears to be from the mid to late 19th century. But im hardly an expert and the regulating load doesnt make sense.

 

[Hunter4752001]

My eyes aren't what they once were, but the barrel marking appears to say "Ammunition 3 2/4 500 Express. Would any actual gunmaker mark a calibre as 2/4 instead of 1/2. I'm leaning towards Hunter-Habib's comment re "Tree shade gunsmiths".

 

[PCC600]

What you are seeing is typical for Jones underlever lumps.

I am very familiar with Jones underlever . I currently have a Purdey Nitro express DR with this type of action but those under lumps do not look good to me .

 

[grand veneur]

The rifle is assembled from older and newer parts, carefully I hope. The parts don't match as far time periods are concerned, and the engravings are also no authentic. The comments on the sale offer must also be evaluated very critically.

It is allowed to built such rifle, but they must be inspected by a proof house or some similar instance in every case, and only that instances may apply the marks, especially that regarding the caliber. Furthermore, a potential customer must be told what kind of rifle it actually is. The rest is a matter of taste; I don't like such hybrid rifles. You can restore an old rifle, but you have to keep in all cases the original style.

 

[Pondoro]

I think grand veneur is right here.. I have a similar Lyon & Lyon double for .577 BPE 3", a hammer gun with Jones underlever screw grip.

It is made as late as year 1900 and the load, (167 grains black behind a 650 grain bullet), is engraved on the barrels.. If that was the custom on BPE rifles I do not know.. But it was common on the early doubles for cordite..

The usual BPE proof marks are on the barrel flats..

Lyon & Lyon was strictly a dealer in british India who imported guns made in Birmingham...and perhaps a few from the London makers..

 

[matt85]

My eyes aren't what they once were, but the barrel marking appears to say "Ammunition 3 2/4 500 Express. Would any actual gunmaker mark a calibre as 2/4 instead of 1/2. I'm leaning towards Hunter-Habib's comment re "Tree shade gunsmiths".

View attachment 755414

Good catch!