.470 NE Reloads and Fillers?

[mikecatt13]

The other question to ask is: do you need to handload your double?

There are some deals out there on factory ammo. You cannot buy the nosler or Hornady 470NE components as cheap as they sell finished product!

$5-$7 ammo is pretty great and only reusing brass makes it cheaper on the reload.

Need is a strong word lol. I actually dont really like reloading as I only have a single stage press, but which is the only way I'd load rounds for DG. In order to practice the amount needed before my safari, saving dollars per round reusing brass will add up

I trust the large reputable brands for pretty much anything else, but when my life may depend on it I think I want ammo that I've personally checked carefully every single step of the way. Assuming it would regulate well with factory ammo even

 

[mikecatt13]

You might want to check warranty/guarantee with Krieghoff. Krieghoff SA will void any warranty/guarantee when using monolithic bullets in their double rifles.

Woodleighs work well at NE velocities, Swift A frames are great.

What was the rifle originally regulated with?

That I dont know. It was supposedly purchased from an estate sale by a reputable broker, and the current owner I'm purchasing from supposedly never shot it. It's a blaser s2, so from my understanding, since they're user adjustable, they dont have a database like other makers that have fixed regulation. They provided me with build date and msrp but didnt say anything about regulation, though I didn't specifically ask, but someone may have adjusted it since anyway

 

[DrBob]

The Barnes Banded are not in the same bunch as other monolithics. The bands provide reduced stress on the barrel and are fine for modern rifles (and even older ones). Likewise, the Hornady solids have a thick enough cladding that steel underlying never touches rifling. Best of both worlds is the Woodleigh Hydrodynamically Stabilized solids that perform well as both solid and "expandable" designs. Modern bullet design has supplanted problems with the older designs. For the older rifles, I stick with Woodleighs.

 

[Spooksar]

If a load leaves empty space in the case, it can be beneficial for consistent ignition to use a filler to keep the powder in the primer end of the case.

I've heard about the use of dacron fiber for making subsonic loads in 308Win before, but have no idea about how much to use.

I use 5 grs of Dacron in my 470NE. Load is 87 grs of Reloader 15 and a Federal 215 primer Woodliegh. I developed this load before I could find Reloader 17, it regulates so well in my Merkel I never changed it. Muzzle velocity is 2150 fps.

 

[Spooksar]

I use 5 grs of Dacron in my 470NE. Load is 87 grs of Reloader 15 and a Federal 215 primer Woodliegh. I developed this load before I could find Reloader 17, it regulates so well in my Merkel I never changed it. Muzzle velocity is 2150 fps.

Woodliegh 500 gr bullet,

 

[DrBob]

Good choice with Dacron and Rl-15.... It is the exact same load developed by Ross Seyfried in this article years ago!

 

[mikecatt13]

Dumb question...how do you know if a recipe needs filler? Inconsistent velocities? Or for a caliber like this if you shake the case and hear powder should it just be filled?

 

[fourfive8]

Really no exact criteria for filler use other than anywhere around a half full case is getting close to at least the potential for causing an unexpected and unpredictable explosive event (also called a SEE- secondary explosive event) ... or something like that. The theory is split in that there are two possible causes. One is that the primer flashes over the top of the partially filled case and exposes a bunch of powder to ignition all at once causing an explosive event or it ignites the charge at the bullet first and the charge burns to the rear creating a wave of compression that affects the burn rate of the progressive smokeless charge causing an unusually sharp pressure curve. The second is that with some especially hard to ignite slow ball powders, if not directly exposed to the primer charge as with the half full case example, may not ignite very quickly allowing the primer impulse to move the bullet into a hard jam in the throat whereupon it becomes a "bore obstruction" causing a huge pressure spike when the main charge finally ignites and comes up to full progressive burn. This stop-start-stop phenomenon is also known where the primer impulse pushes a bullet forward jamming it into the forcing cone of a revolver before full ignition of the main charge... especially with certain hard to ignite ball powders in cold conditions.

A filler is of such low density, that if done properly, it adds nearly no mass to the overall projectile and simply holds the powder charge next to the primer for consistent, full ignition-- especially in large volume cases where even an appropriate powder charge may be far short of a 100% load density. The idea is to use an amount of low density Dacron fiber filler to fill the entire air space, with a small amount of compression, between the bullet base and the powder charge. Just dense enough to hold the powder granules securely to the rear. Some loaders even use a low density foam plug between powder and bullet but I have no experience with this method. Dacron filler is considered superior to kapok, cotton, wool and such as these materials may compress and become a loose, separate, more dense mass in the case- not good! Any hard, dense object sitting, separately on top of a charge of smokeless can be rammed into the bullet base upon main charge ignition with such force that is can cause a ring in the chamber at the place the bullet's base is sitting in the loaded round. not good!

Also, the use of low density fillers is not the same as the use of over powder hard card or fiber wads. Two different things completely and cannot be interchanged in application. Hard fiber and card wads are for use in shotshells and for certain blackpowder cartridge loads where 100% load density exists.

No matter the filler- use caution and have those with knowledge of the proper use in any specific application, caliber, powder or charge... guide the proper use directly.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Develop a load with H4831 and you won't need filler.

 

[IvW]

That I dont know. It was supposedly purchased from an estate sale by a reputable broker, and the current owner I'm purchasing from supposedly never shot it. It's a blaser s2, so from my understanding, since they're user adjustable, they dont have a database like other makers that have fixed regulation. They provided me with build date and msrp but didnt say anything about regulation, though I didn't specifically ask, but someone may have adjusted it since anyway

Blaser S2 much easier to regulate

 

[DrBob]

Hang-fire and inconsistent ignition will occur with the medium powders such as RL-15 or if using reduced charges of such powders such as H4350. The foam wad or dacron is the equivalent of about 3-4 grains of powder when looking at velocity. No wad is needed when using IMR 4831 or slower but the perceived recoil will be greater from ejected powder mass (converted to gas) and rocket effect from those gases. Nice thing about wads or mildly compressed slower powder is keeping powder granules from rubbing and making smaller particles that increase burn rate.

Federal uses just RL-15 but a super primer the Fed 216. The primer is not sold as a component. It is used in their African loads. It has a lime green color. I bought some primed 416 cases which had been broken down. I carefully removed them and put them in 470 cases to see and yes they were hotter than the 215s. I prefer wads to keep powder from rubbing and it's a little cheaper to use a one penny wad than 4 grains of powder.

One professional writer didn't like more than 1.5 grains of dacron in any load. The Kynock wads fragment into a gritty material and if the wind is at your face you can feel the particles coming back at you. Backer rod and dacron don't disintegrate.

I shoot both hard cast and paper patch full power lead bullets in the Merkel with very good accuracy. This is at 2100 fps. In a test I was able to go up to 2300 fps with retained accuracy but razor edge to pressure problems and really too much for any double to digest many of and they did not regulate. The hard cast are heat tempered and super hard. Sized and then heat tempered followed by gas checked and lubed with a sizing die 1 to 2 thousandths larger. Once tempered ... sizing would be very very difficult. The paper patch one can go to soft lead at speed only obtainable with paper patch. Since these are full power, good practice and a good hunting round for plains game. I would like to shoot one into a dead Cape before trying one on a live one.

 

[mikecatt13]

Thanks for all the GREAT info, I actually am looking forward to working up these loads and regulating the gun.

I think I'll try 4831 first to keep it simple without filler since that part is new to me

 

[fourfive8]

Develop a load with H4831 and you won't need filler.

Thanks for all the GREAT info, I actually am looking forward to working up these loads and regulating the gun.

I think I'll try 4831 first to keep it simple without filler since that part is new to me

Yes ... That is the better solution when loading for many of the old, “too much capacity” cartridges. Many having a history of design based on black powder or cordite. Using modern, very slow burning powders— not very efficient, some increase in carbon fouling but fairly consistent with little potential for trouble.

 

[fourfive8]

Here's the Hodgdon data for the 470 NE with a 500 gr Woodleigh RN.

 

[DrBob]

With the newer temperature insensitive powders... some with copper eraser.... one can load rounds that will perform well in Africa. Hodgdon/IMR and Alliant have such powders. As an aside, 101 grains of Retumbo with a Woodleigh 450 grain bullet is a great 416 Rigby load.... in both my CZ and Ruger... 2200 fps.

One more full power recipe for 470: 500 gr DGX, 108 grains IMR 4955, Fed 215, 2176 fps.
Also, 400 grain Speer Deep Curl (.475 handgun bullet), 76.3 grain Varget, Fed 215, 2.5 grains dacron ...1950 fps.... 1.1" at 50 yards.

So many loads... so little time....

 

[IvW]

Here's the Hodgdon data for the 470 NE with a 500 gr Woodleigh RN.

View attachment 318354

Strange that they would list loads over the maximum 39,160 psi (270.0 MPa) recommended with 39360 as max pressure...

 

[fourfive8]

Here's a list of standards for both SAAMI and CIP
http://kwk.us/pressures.html

 

[rookhawk]

Develop a load with H4831 and you won't need filler.

Yes, but 15% less recoil with RL19 at same velocity.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Yes, but 15% less recoil with RL19 at same velocity.

I love numbers, where did you get this 15% from?

 

[rookhawk]

I love numbers, where did you get this 15% from?

Load data at same velocity plugged into felt recoil calculator.