.458 Win Mag vs .470 NE

I'd buy the .458 and have every confidence in it. (y)

My Zastava with the 24" barrel is launching the 550gn Woodleigh at just under 2100fps and the Woodleigh 450gn Hydro's at spot on 2300fps...

I would would feel confident taking on anything Africa has to offer with these 2 loads...

Russ
What powder are you using and is that a compressed load?
 
Jumping from 30-06 to any .400 and up cartridge is HUGE.

I’d highly recommend starting with a mid-bore that’s legal for hunting DG like the 375H&H or 375RUGER if you want something more modern before taking the plunge on a 458WM or 470NE.

Gain some experience with a mid-bore and see if you really want (or need) to move up in both cost of the firearm, ammo and increased recoil as well.
 
Perhaps off topic but I'm interested in why Merkel didn't make the list. I prefer them to Chapuis though both seem to shoot quite well.
I should've thrown the Merkel in as well. I once had one that shot very well. I was just naming a few that were superior to the Sabatti he mentioned.
 
Recoil, recoil that’s the most used word I think I hear. There’s NO free lunch. Just part of shooting.
 
Recoil, recoil that’s the most used word I think I hear. There’s NO free lunch. Just part of shooting.
 
Sorry about the double post, I thought I had timed out.
 
I highly recommend getting a .375 Holland & Holland Magnum (especially for a novice client hunter). I’ve been successfully using rifles in this caliber for hunting all the African dangerous game ever since my first safari to the Dark Continent back in 1974. For a very brief period (namely just one safari), I experimented with using a larger caliber (namely the .458 Winchester Magnum because it was the only caliber larger than .375 Holland & Holland Magnum back in those days for which commercially loaded ammunition was being manufactured). But I soon reverted back to the reliable old .375.

It's merits are as follows:
- Easy availability of factory loaded ammunition/reloading components
- Wide range of available bullet weights (although the 300Gr is the only one you need)
- Flat trajectory
- Extreme accuracy
- Immense penetration
- Low recoil

The only place where it falls short, is for body shots on bull elephant. If you plan on hunting just the occasional elephant, then .375 Holland & Holland Magnum is perfectly okay. If I were to hunt a lot of elephant, then I would opt for a .505 Gibbs. But any decent caliber above .450 bore (such as .458 Lott or .450 Rigby) would be perfectly adequate assuming that you are using strongly constructed (either monometal brass or lead cored with thick steel jackets) solid bullets (reasonably flattened at the point) of 500Gr or above weight at a velocity of above 2100 fps.

Herein, I must add that the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum is an excellent choice for brain shots on even the largest of bull elephant from ANY angle whatsoever (even frontal brain shots).

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If I had to choose between the .458 Winchester Magnum and the .470 Nitro Express, then it would depend upon whether I was more comfortable with shooting a bolt action rifle (in which case, I would opt for the .458 Winchester Magnum) or a double rifle (in which case, I would opt for the .470 Nitro Express). Personally speaking, by this point in my life… I can shoot both with reasonable accuracy. But when I was a beginner, I was far less of an accurate shot with a double rifle than I was with a bolt action rifle.

On basic principle (assuming that both calibers are loaded with 500Gr bullets), the .458 Winchester Magnum has better sectional density than the .470 Nitro Express. While the .470 Nitro Express has better case capacity than the .458 Winchester Magnum (which permits cartridges to be loaded to 2150fps without creating compressed loads or unhealthy high pressures that are particularly counterproductive in the heat of African terrains such as the Zambezi valley or the Kalahari). But sectional density is no longer as serious a factor as it was back in the old days (due to the much stronger construction of modern bullets even if they are slightly light for caliber). And the .458 Winchester Magnum can now be employed with modern powders to easily accomplish around 2087-2100fps in fresh hand-loads (depending on the rifle’s throat and barrel length).

So whichever you pick, boils down to individual preference. I do however, strongly believe that a budget bolt action rifle is a far more reliable proposition than a budget double rifle. I personally do not think very highly of Sabatti double rifles, and would thus go for the Winchester Model 70 Safari Express.

A small suggestion: If you do decide to use a .458 Winchester Magnum with lighter-for-caliber bullets, then please don’t go below 450Gr. Otherwise penetration and punch will get compromised regardless of how modern the bullet design is.

Oh, by the way. Your choice of using a .30-06 Springfield caliber rifle for plains game is excellent. A true classic. This has been my all-time favorite African plains game caliber as well, ever since 1974 (although I do like the 7x57mm Mauser as well).
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What powder are you using and is that a compressed load?

I'm using BM2 (BENCHMARK) powder and yes they're compressed - but using a drop tube helps minimise this.
I have no qualms with compressed loads and l have fired compressed .458 loads from the early 80's with no problem. In fact they were some of the most consistent ammo l've ever fired (y)

Russ
 
I would buy a new Model 70 in 375 H&H. It will kill anything on the planet, can be used on the great bears or Alaska and Elk in the west as well. If you hunt with it a lot you'll be more comfortable facing that cape buffalo who's looking at you "like you owe him money" :)
 
As many have stated that the transition from a 30/06 to a big bore is a significant step up in recoil, everyone has their limit on what they can shoot accurately. The harder kickers can develop several bad flinch habits if you aren't careful. You didn't mention what experience you have shooting rifles above 30/06. So I will put recoil into american contact football terms.
The 30/06 class is like being tackled by the cheerleaders or quarterback.
The 338-375 class is like a corner back/free safety tackling you.
The 416/404 class is like being tackled by a linebacker.
The 458-470 class is like being tackled by a fast defensive lineman.
The 500/505 class is like being tackled by the linebacker and defensive lineman at the same time.
The 577NE and bigger is like being hit by the whole defensive front 4.

I am a double guy but for a first DG rifle I would recommend a bolt gun, but before you put down some hard earned cash seek out some folks in your area that have a 338-375 and shoot that first. then step up to the 416 class and finally try the 458 class to see if you are comfortable with those levels of recoil.
Most big bores are very accurate hunting rifles that will be able to shoot any of the animals you mentioned the weak point it that is always the shooter. On occasion with croc you might have to take a shot from the prone or awkward position I will say that a 375 from the prone is easy but a 458 is a whole different experience.

Go into your purchase completely informed so that you don't waste time and money.
 
I would buy a new Model 70 in 375 H&H. It will kill anything on the planet, can be used on the great bears or Alaska and Elk in the west as well. If you hunt with it a lot you'll be more comfortable facing that cape buffalo who's looking at you "like you owe him money" :)
Except if he decides to come collect his money you’re essentially defenseless and reliant on your PH to save you. Unless you’re able to make a CNS shot of course
 
I'm with those like Hunter Habib and Colorado who recommend the .375. Besides the arguments already presented, I believe that there should always be some area of functional overlap between what you already own and the more specialized rifle you're planning on buying. In this light, going from a .30-06 to a .375 makes much more sense than going from a .30-06 to a .450+. There will be a whole class of hunting for which you may be undergunned with the former and overgunned with the latter, whereas the .375 will do partly what a .30-06 is capable of, partly what the .450+ calibers will do.

If I remember correctly, Craig Boddington made a similar argument when addressing the topic of the 2-rifle safari.

No, as Wishfulthinker says, the .375 is not ideal as a dangerous-game stopper, but it's a hell of a lot easier to shoot and a hell of a lot more versatile than either the .458 and the .470. Meaning that the .375 would be much less likely to stay in the safe.

I also agree, even as a double-rifle lover, that a bolt is infinitely more versatile--easy to scope, easy to change loads and bullets with, generally lighter to carry, inherently more accurate, etc. But if you decide to go with a double, I would not recommend a Sabatti both in terms of performance and resale value.

So my advice is: get a .375 bolt, see how you do with it, then get the big bore out of your system if you still want to own and hunt with one. A Winchester Mod. 70 would be a perfectly reasonable place to start.
 
I didn't read all of the replies but I noticed some great advice for you to get a scoped 375 H&H. 100% agreed. 458's and up are more recoil than most can get comfortable with. Even 416's can be a handful if you're not used to them. 375's are perfect and there is nothing they can't handle. In fact, they are about perfect for buff and lion. 458's and up are stopping rifles and thick skinned DG rifles. They are a huge jump from the 30-06 level of recoil. In typical weights and loads, the 30-06 has about 20 ft lbs of recoil. The 375 has about 37 ft lbs of recoil or basically double the recoil. The 458 win mag has about 62 ft lbs of recoil and the 470 has about 70 ft lbs of recoil, which is the 375 doubled or 4x of a 30-06.. Double the recoil of a 375 is a lot to manage correctly. Many people go to Africa and are afraid of or cannot handle their big guns. Get the 375 and you will find faster success.
 
I suggest that you ask around at your local gun range and find someone with a 458 and maybe a 375. See if they will let you shoot their rifle and pay them for rounds. I have a 458 and 30 06. I wouldnt use the 458 on anything needing accuracy because recoil and best acuracy do not go hand in hand- ask long range and bench rest shooters. I do photgraphic guiding so carry the big bore for protection and not hunting. If i were hunting for myself, a 375 would have been a better choice. But rehardless, i would use 3006 on plainsgame up to leopard and my 458 on hippo, lion, buffalo and elephant.
 
I know I’m echoing what a lot of people have already said, but I would go with the bolt gun. Equipped with a 1-4 scope of some kind it would leave you with more options on a mixed bag hunt. If you were out for DG and a really nice PG animal were to make an appearance you wouldn’t be limited in your range like you would be with the double.
 
Not only do i second the advice to start with a 375 H&H, but you are probably going to want one eventually anyway. I have recently held a new Model 70 Safari Express in 375 at a local gun store, and it is a very well built rifle. And i think that would always be an easy rifle to sell if you ever decided to. I have both 375 and 458 WM, and I'd grab the 375 every time, unless I was absolutely sure that I needed a real stopper like the 458.
 
Buy a Winchester in .375 H&H. In the USA they are available for $1550 via Gun Broker including sales tax and 1% Gun Broker fee to the buyer.

Once you master the 40 foot pounds recoil of the 375, step up to a double if that's your dream. A 470 Nitro has around 70 foot pounds of recoil. It is as big or bigger step in recoil from a 375 to a 470 as from a 30-06 to a 375.

Get a 458 or 470 bore rifle if you like. I have several 458's but I love my 375's and 416's.
A 375 can replace a smaller plains game rifle, drop a buffalo, and drive a bullet into an elephant's brain. Of course, well placed shots from a 416, 458, 470, 500, or cannon will drop big, dangerous critters as well and often better than a 375. The smaller 375 is just easier to master for those necessary "well placed shots". You will not regret owning a 375 H&H. Everyone needs a 375!

@OJames05 I would listen to @Mark A Ouellette ….. this man knows his powder & lead and I consider him somewhat the Yoda of this forum.

Having said that, I went the opposite route and bought a second hand Sabatti .470 that was Ken Owen improved- my avatar pick is a 50yds iron sights pair with my .470 but in honesty I made a mistake by shooting not only a big gun but one with a stock way to short.

The result was having to drop back down to a .22 in order to shake a bad flinch I picked up; I then got a .375 and .416 and alternated them and it made me a better shooter.

The doubles are fun, but you have to learn and practice. I now have an RMR mounted on my .470 and it took things to a whole new level.
 
I don’t disagree on the whole 375 thing, but that was not the question. I owned several big bores before I owned a 375.
 
I don’t disagree on the whole 375 thing, but that was not the question. I owned several big bores before I owned a 375.
Not everyone knows the question they should be asking. First time African hunter, currently hunts with a 30/06, thinking future buffalo hunt, wants to make accurate shots on croc and hippo, none of that aligns with 458 or 470.
 

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