450 Rigby vs 458 Lott

sandman0921

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Absolutely, Swift A-Frame. I'm sure there are other great bullets out there but I've killed a lot of critters with Swift A-Frames and Trophy Bonded Bearclaw bullets. I won't use anything else. I made the mistake of using Hornady DGX bullets...once. When I lived in Alaska, a 270 gr. Swift A-Frame in my .375 H&H was my bear gun with incredible effect. There are folks on this forum with a lot more elephant knowledge than I have, but I believe that a frontal brain shot on a cow elephant requires 14 or 16" of bone penetration. Obviously not an application for a soft unless she's running down your throat and that is what is up the pipe. I think it speaks well of the A-Frame that it got the job done.

It's hard to find a better bullet than the A-frame as I'm sure you and your friend can testify to.....I figured it was one of the premium bonded or mono-metal bullets. It would have been really neat to see how well that A-frame held together, and subsequently how far it penetrated, from a point-blank shot to the skull of a full-grown cow elephant. I'm sure it did great, and we know it at least penetrated to the brain.... I'm also sure that was probably the last thing on the PH, or your friend's, mind as well.....

Great Story!
 

CTDolan

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Absolutely, Swift A-Frame. I'm sure there are other great bullets out there but I've killed a lot of critters with Swift A-Frames and Trophy Bonded Bearclaw bullets. I won't use anything else. I made the mistake of using Hornady DGX bullets...once. When I lived in Alaska, a 270 gr. Swift A-Frame in my .375 H&H was my bear gun with incredible effect. There are folks on this forum with a lot more elephant knowledge than I have, but I believe that a frontal brain shot on a cow elephant requires 14 or 16" of bone penetration. Obviously not an application for a soft unless she's running down your throat and that is what is up the pipe. I think it speaks well of the A-Frame that it got the job done.

The Swift A-Frame and Jack Carter's Trophy Bonded Bear Claw are about as good as it gets when it comes to lead core bullets. I still shoot a lot of Partitions (more than any other, in fact), but do so for a couple of specific reasons for which the Partition is ideally suited.

As for the Hornady DGX, they tried something different and it hasn't worked out so well. Maybe the new, bonded version will be better but in my opinion the main issue has been one of jacket material (which, in the DGX, is steel...very non-traditional).
 

sandman0921

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I still shoot a lot of Partitions (more than any other, in fact), but do so for a couple of specific reasons for which the Partition is ideally suited.

That's good to hear. How have your Partitions held up in Africa?

That will be the primary bullet I use for the majority of my safari in Tanzania this August. I'm shooting 286 grain (9.3mm) Partitions from my 9.3x62. The reason I chose that instead of my usual Barnes TSX bullets is that in addition to plains game, I will be hunting leopard as well. I wanted a bullet that rapidly expanded for the leopard, but also held together enough to penetrate through animals like sable, wildebeest, etc. I was afraid the Barnes TSX's would potentially pencil right through a thin-skinned cat like the leopard. The Partition fit the bill well, and they also shoot well from my rifle. I've heard some rifles don't shoot them accurately, but in my experience they've always been relatively easy to get to shoot well.

I'm also hunting Cape Buffalo, and am bringing my AHR 404 Jeffery, but that rifle will be hurling 400 grain North Fork SS Bonded (softs) and 400 grain North Fork CPS (solid) bullets instead of Partitions...
 

CTDolan

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I use Partitions on lighter, North American game (and would definitely be content using them on a leopard).

For anything heavy requiring lots of penetration, though, I'd want bonded and maximum weight retention (not the jurisdiction of the Partition). By the way, in that regard, North Fork makes great bullets (tough as nails). I haven't any experience with them, though.
 

sandman0921

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@CTDolan

Originally, that was my thinking on the Partition as well. I had even considered seeing if I could get the 286 grain A-frames to shoot to the same POI as the 286 Partitions just so I could shoot the A-frame at bigger plains game animals. But the more I read about the Partition's track record in Africa, and the fact that it worried me that I would be tinkering with a load that shot very well out of my rifle, I thought the better of it....especially when it comes down to placing an accurate shot on Chui...


One thing that I found interesting was a discussion on a fairly well know internet forum from a few years back. In that discussion, a well known writer for Rifle and Handloader magazine, and a guy that has forgotten more about shooting and reloading than I'll ever know, Mr. John Barsness had relayed information that Nosler had designed/redesigned the Partitions in the larger caliber (and including 9.3/286 grain) bullets to have the actual partition moved forward in the bullet so that more shank would be left when the front portion was shed. His statement was that even if the whole front portion was sheared off, the bullet would retain 83% of it's original weight, and usually because that wasn't the case, the bullet retained upwards of 85-90% of it's original weight. In his experience with the larger calibers, the Nosler Partition showed equal penetration to the A-frame. I do not know if that is true or not, but I have no reason to doubt the veracity of his statement. He is a prolific writer when it comes to guns, and especially cartridges, bullets, etc., and is fairly well connected I think with insiders in the bullet industry. I always enjoy reading his articles and have learned a lot including the load recipe for my 9.3x62 rounds. Incidentally, I reached out to Nosler to see if they would verify this fact, but to date, I have yet to hear anything back from them....

This article from Chuck Hawks website seems to suggest this is true as well....

https://www.chuckhawks.com/nosler_hunting_bullets.htm

Again, my apologies to the original poster for hijacking your thread. The 458 Lott and the 450 Rigby are both fine big-bore cartridges with proven track records in the fields of Africa. I think you would be well served with either one, and it really comes down to personal choice...

Cheers to all....
 

TOBY458

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Well, I took half the money I got back and bought a Ruger No 1 7x57 Mauser today. New in the box, made in 2008. So, I guess I'll stick with my 416's for now!
 

WAB

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On the partition, I used them a fair bit when I lived in WY. I had a couple that apparently were at the wrong velocity, or didn't hit enough mass, that simply punched a pencil hole through the boiler house. I might as well have been shooting solids. I have had this happen on a Nosler AccuBond on an average sized black bear in Alaska as well. Perfect high heart shot at 350 yards, no indication of a hit, went up the avalanche chute, found one drop of blood where he was standing, tracked a bloodless trail for 100 yards and there he was shot perfectly with a pencil hole right through the top of his heart. I have never had that happen with a Swift A-Frame and have used them on many shots between 25 and 350 yards. I know I may be bucking the common wisdom, but my experience with partitions and accubonds has been erratic at best, and this is with well placed shots with capable calibers. My feeling is why take a chance when there are bullets like the bearclaw and a-frame out there.
 

TOBY458

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To be quite honest, from a backup point of view, you cannot be pissing about tilting rifles this way and that to get them to function. Pull back fast enough and it will still hit the scope. Use it without a scope and the shells fly straight up and not away and to the right.

Better options available for a DG rifle.

With these issues your PH may have to get into the action when he may not have needed to if you were using a rifle that performed as it should have in the first place.

As a client you may be fine, as a PH you may not. For DG get something that works as it should, first time and every other time after that.
Your foresight on this was spot on. And this exact thing happened. For those who missed my hunting report, see BUFFALO RODEO IN THE KALAHARI in the African hunting reports.

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/south-africa-buffalo-rodeo-in-the-kalahari.52091/
 
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Aussie_Hunter

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I'm looking at buying a 45 caliber rifle. I've had several 458 Win Mags over the years, and managed to sell them all for some reason or another.
I have an interest in either a Sako Brown Bear 450 Rigby, or a Kimber Caprivi in 458 Lott.
I can get either gun for about the same price, and I think they'd both be nice rifles, but I'm not sure about which caliber to go with.
I know the Rigby can be loaded hotter than the Lott, but I'm only wanting around 2200fps with a 500 grain bullet.
I feel this is all I would ever need, as far as power is concerned. It appears the Lott is much cheaper and easier to find reloading components for, so that is nice. But, something about the Rigby and the Sako rifle just keeps calling me as well.
Thoughts?
I am fairly biased when it comes to this as I have just bought a Caprivi chambered in 458 Lott and I am not a Sako fan. Having said that and even though I haven't fired the Caprivi yet I am still of the opinion it is too light for the 458 Lott cartridge and will need a few sinkers tied to it to make it more comfortable to shoot.
 

Quaticman

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What about the .500 Rigby? A 570 grainer @ 2,350 is quite effective on both ends!
 

BeeMaa

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@TOBY458 just picked up a Heym 404J.
He may be a little preoccupied with it...for the rest of his life.

That said, he is Toby and you never know what he's looking at next.
 

BeeMaa

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Already thinking about a Dakota 76 PH in 404. You know......a using gun.
I've always said that if I have the money to buy it, I might as well enjoy using it too.
I was just thinking if a Heym was sitting in my vault...how long would it be until it saw blood.

I'm also thinking, how long would it be before you looked down at the Dakota...and wished it was your Heym.
To each their own, I can respect that.
Enjoy the rifle the way YOU want to.
You deserve it.
 

TOBY458

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I've always said that if I have the money to buy it, I might as well enjoy using it too.
I was just thinking if a Heym was sitting in my vault...how long would it be until it saw blood.

I'm also thinking, how long would it be before you looked down at the Dakota...and wished it was your Heym.
To each their own, I can respect that.
Enjoy the rifle the way YOU want to.
You deserve it.
You're missing the whole point. Any excuse to buy another gun should never be questioned! :D
 

BeeMaa

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You're missing the whole point. Any excuse to buy another gun should never be questioned! :D
Never questioned about you buying another gun.
I believe that is grounds for AH membership dismissal. ;)

Merely stating that while holding one, you would (possibly) be thinking of another.
I'm sure this has happened to you before, maybe not with guns but perhaps...cars?
Yep, had to be a car and not women.
Stick with cars....and guns.
 

IvW

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What about the .500 Rigby? A 570 grainer @ 2,350 is quite effective on both ends!

Now we going to hunt them with Phantom cartridges.....

With reliable rifles and the correct bullet they are not that difficult to stop.
 

John Telford

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Why does it need to be a choice? Get both . Life’s too short ....
 

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