.333 O.K.H.

[TX_GreatPlains]

I would NOT consider using a 300 gr .338 on African DG in an '06 case. No way, no how! Maybe a 250 gr properly-selected modern bullet in a larger cased 338 for cats or croc. The OKH is NOT a DG gun. It's what we like to call, one of the first renditions of the "poor man's magnum," which it fails short of, but fine for NA game. Was it Gibbs that did such things prior to OKH? You could take a leopard or croc with it, but again, I'd channel Ruark! The 338-06 A-Sq is phenomenally accurate (as are all my .338s.) The 338 A-Sq is tied for 3 most accurate guns, ever, but the 06 will shoot <0.75" groups all day. Elk, black bear and deer is where it's at. There's a story in the Barnes manual about Chub Eastman being on a (moose I think) hunt and encountering a big brown bear, so he took it with the .338-06 he was carrying for moose (using 250 gr TSX) "and fell in-love with it." LOL NOT my 1st choice for coastal brown bear (but the bullet did the work at close range)!

I agree with you completely and so did Keith. I was thinking “Big game” as I have referenced in prior post but I said Dangerous game. Thank you for excellent input.

 

[Huvius]

I agree, I also don't understand how they were able to get 2400fps out of a '06 case...

And did they?

I mean, I can't imagine chronographs being that plentiful back then, how did they actually determine that velocity?
Did they actually have access to a chronograph?

And if they did have access to a chronograph, once again, how did they manage to get that velocity safely?

Well before Keith was developing his cartridges, chronograph technology was quite accurate. Just as if today, we match bullet weight and published velocity for Edwardian double rifles, they have a good chance of regulating. They weren’t just guessing at it.
Also, modern manufacturers exercise a certain amount of CYA in what they publish and market.
Not so in the days of the original wildcatters.
In those days, hand loaders seemed only interested in squeezing out the most they could. Almost without exception, when I go through old fired brass from my Great Uncle’s hoard, the primers are way flattened, if I pull bullets, the powder charges are always compressed and weigh above published maximums of today’s manuals.
I’m sure they just worked up their loads until the groups started to open up or the primers flowed too much or the bolt lift became too stiff.

 

[C.W. Richter]

i see here the 333 belted was different and made from the (1958 338 WM cartridge). Its ballistics have to be much better than the 06 variant, but that's covered (and exceeded) today with modern true magnum length 338s. The 338-06 is the modern 333 OKH in 06 cases. The OKH wildcat cartridges were first developed in the 1940s. The OKH ( O’Neil-Keith-Hopkins”) for the load designers, Charles O’Neil, ( a great custom firearms maker) Don Hopkins (famous dangerous game hunter) , and Elmer Keith (famous firearm writer) These were famous men in the wildcat and rifle fields back in the day. Working out loads, shooting and experimenting with wildcats, which many will know cartridges came about in today’s marketplace Here are a few of the OKH wildcats” .265 OKH from the .30-06 Sprinfield case .285 OKH from the .30-06 Springfield case .333 OKH “Belted” from .338 Winchester Magnum case .333 OKH ”Rimless” from .30-06 Springfield case .334 OKH from the.300 H&H Magnum case .424 OKH from the .375 H&H Magnum case .475 OKH from the .375 H&H Magnum case. There was also some others the men produced including: .250 O’Neil from the .30 Newton case, and two experimental 6mm OKH from the 338 Winchester Magnum case 7mm OKH from the .375 H&H Magnum case.( also called the .280 OKH by some people.

 

[Badboymelvin]

Just for what it’s worth:
I believe the 300 grain@2400fps is for the .333 belted OKH.

Not the rimless .333 OKH.

That makes more sense...

 

[Flbt]

That makes more sense...

I am not a handloader
But I have read a lot of Kieths books.
The flash tube and mixing different powder
Would have me a little Leary to be chasing his
Fps loads

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I’ve been reading Keith’s Rifles for Large Game by Elmer Keith. I believe it goes without saying that Mr. Keith knew his business. He dedicates a great deal of of content and ballistic data to the custom wildcat cartridge 333 OKH developed in the 1940s by Charles O'Neil, Elmer Keith, and Don Hopkins (OKH).
“The 300-grain .333 O.K.H. kills the big brown bear quicker than anything I have ever seen used, with similar placement of bullets. It quickly beats even the .375 Magnum at long range, owing to its great sectional density and low velocity-loss”. Here’s something for @ActionBob @Bob Nelson 35Whelen “the .35 Whelen and .350 G&H have already been thoroughly discussed. Both are ideal for lion and buffalo under favorable conditions. The .35 Whelen can never quite equal the .333 O.K.H. .

Any thoughts on why this cartridge went the way of the dodo bird?

@TX_GreatPlains
It went the way of the dodo because of the odd size projectiles and went on to become the 338 win mag.
Back in the day they didn't have the powders and projectiles we have today.
Loaded to its potential with a 310 gn Woodleigh at 2,455fos in the Whelen I'm sure good ol Elmer would have been amazed at what the Whelen coan do now.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I’ve been reading Keith’s Rifles for Large Game by Elmer Keith. I believe it goes without saying that Mr. Keith knew his business. He dedicates a great deal of of content and ballistic data to the custom wildcat cartridge 333 OKH developed in the 1940s by Charles O'Neil, Elmer Keith, and Don Hopkins (OKH).
“The 300-grain .333 O.K.H. kills the big brown bear quicker than anything I have ever seen used, with similar placement of bullets. It quickly beats even the .375 Magnum at long range, owing to its great sectional density and low velocity-loss”. Here’s something for @ActionBob @Bob Nelson 35Whelen “the .35 Whelen and .350 G&H have already been thoroughly discussed. Both are ideal for lion and buffalo under favorable conditions. The .35 Whelen can never quite equal the .333 O.K.H. .

Any thoughts on why this cartridge went the way of the dodo bird?

@TX_GreatPlains
Apart from the odd bullet diameter the cartridge ignition system with a tube and the use of duplex and sometimes triplex ( 2-3 different powders in the case at the same time)charges to aid velocity and combustion would have made the cartridge a very complex proposition to make and load commercially. Being a proprietary round doomed it from the start.
Bob

So as you can see it was a very complex proposition
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Big fan also. I will say that even though 338 Win Mag replaced the 333 I subscribe to Keith’s Pounds-feet killing power formula. Which is MV x bullet weight divided by 7000.
333 shooting 300 gr according to his data 2400 mv so (2400x300)/7000=102.857 compared to hot loaded Buffalo bore 338 (3100x225)/7000=99.64. Keith subscribed to lower velocity heavy projectile for big game.
So was the 338 an equal replacement? I’m not totally convinced.

@TX_GreatPlains
The 333OKH on the 30-06 case had two loads
The 250gn at 2,400fps
And
The 300gn at 1,900fps
There were two versions. The beltless and the belted version. The belted version went on to become the 338 win mag whilst the beltless died a natural death.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

To the best of my knowledge, the .333 OKH was based on the .30-06 case necked up using .333” projectiles. Then the .334 OKH was based on the shortened .375 H&H case necked down and using the same .333” projectiles. So it’s probably fair to say the .333 OKH would be analogous to the newer .338-06, while the .334 OKH would be analogous to the newer .338 Winchester Magnum. To say that any of these is more capable than the .35 Whelen or the .375 H&H Magnum would be a stretch of the imagination.

@RedTag
You are mostly correct
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

We should of course understand it to be axiomatic that the bullet with greater sectional density penetrates more and the higher ballistic coefficient outperforms at greater distance, but at the same time that the wider diameter can initiate expansion with more rapid energy transfer and at comparatively lower velocities, all things otherwise equal in terms of bullet weight, construction, and target resistance.
Mr. Keith goes on to state the .375 is “possibly better” under 300 yards. But what I’d really like to know is how in the world they were getting a 300 grain bullet to go 2,400 fps from a cartridge based on the .30-06 case, and if they actually did achieve that why no one is currently pushing that with their .338-06, as the .338 Winchester Magnum is pushing maximum to get there. I’m certainly not questioning the integrity of Elmer Keith, only whether his achievements are realistically possible for any other mere mortal to duplicate.

@RedTag
It would have been with dangerously high pressure with powders of the day
But now it is easily doable to get the Whelen to 2,455 fps with a 310 grainer and do it safely with 2209/ H4350.
Bob
I did this back in June 2022

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I don't believe that the 333OKH could do anything that the .338WM couldn't do better...

Russ

@Badboymelvin
Or the Whelen won't do better than both
You really need to use my Whelen Russ it will open your eyes and change your opinion.
May not have the range of high BC 338s but can definitely out do it on punch out to over 300yards
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I thought I'd add these pics to thread.


View attachment 745490
View attachment 745508
Image sources:
https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/333-okh-cartridges-beltless-and-rimless/39533
https://www.ammo-one1.com/product/333-okh-belted-rimless-2-different-cartridges-sold-as-1-set/


View attachment 745488

View attachment 745489

Factory spec: 300 gr bullet at 2450 fps MV

Cheers! Bob F.

@BFaucett
But did Winchester actually achieve those velocities back then. They were known to stretch the truth a bit back then.
Bob

 

[TX_GreatPlains]

@RedTag
It would have been with dangerously high pressure with powders of the day
But now it is easily doable to get the Whelen to 2,455 fps with a 310 grainer and do it safely with 2209/ H4350.
Bob
I did this back in June 2022View attachment 745713

Bob- all excellent information. You have me convinced on the 35 Whelen. For me it’s apples to apples with that 310gr

 

[C.W. Richter]

I can verify the above, as I got 2,440 in the 338-06 using 300 gr Barnes Original SPs, via chrony. The smaller case in tandem with more dense modern powders creates more pressure in the smaller case. No popped primers, split necks, etc. Excellent groups. What struck me is the clean circles punched in targets with this bullet/velocity combo (like it was done with a holepunch.) This database actually double-checks and flags overpressure loads posted. I also saw others getting 2,650 with 250s. Not too shabby! (I'd go with that). I'd guess you could do a little better using more dense TAC or the like.

300 Barnes

[td]

​

[/td][td]

IMR-4350​

[/td]
[td]

​

[/td][td]

58.0​

[/td]
[td]

​

[/td][td]

2,440​

[/td]
[td]

​

[/td][td]

3,967​

[/td]
[td]

​

[/td][td]

24.0​

[/td]​

@RedTag
It would have been with dangerously high pressure with powders of the day
But now it is easily doable to get the Whelen to 2,455 fps with a 310 grainer and do it safely with 2209/ H4350.
Bob
I did this back in June 2022View attachment 745713

-

 

[BFaucett]

@BFaucett
But did Winchester actually achieve those velocities back then. They were known to stretch the truth a bit back then.
Bob

I don't recall seeing/reading any actual chronographed velocity data for the old Winchester 300 gr load for the .338 Win Mag but, I think around 2450 fps MV is feasible. Of course, that doesn't mean that the old factory load achieved the advertised muzzle velocity.

Recall that the .333 Jeffery (rimless) was renowned for its 300 gr bullet load. Kynoch listed that load at 2200 fps MV from a 28" barrel. (Velocity data from my reprint copy of the 1936 Kynoch/ICI catalog.)

.333" dia, 300 gr: sectional density = .386

.338" dia, 300 gr: sectional density = .375

.358" dia, 310 gr: sectional density = .346

source:
https://sierrabullets.com/content/load-data/rifle/338/338-winchester-magnum.pdf
https://sierrabullets.com/load-data/


Just my two cents... Cheers! Bob F.

 

[7x57Joe]

I spent a day with Mr. Keith in May, 1977. He was a true gentleman and treated me as if I was his grandson. He told me all he wrote about was his experiences only and others would have different. He told me a lot of his long range shots were lucky hits but, if one shot every day, one would be more lucky.

We must remember the bullets back then was very different than today. His dislike of the .30'06 was birthed because of his modification of the 173 grain FMJ. He would file the point down until lead showed and got miserable results. He did say that the 220 grain round nose bullet in the '06 killed acceptably.

A lot of folks think he was bragging about his exploits but, he was just reporting the facts I believe. It was a great day!

 

[Huvius]

I often point out that the 338-06 and the 333OKH are really just newer versions of the 318 Westley Richards which had a .330" dia. bullet.
In period, it was listed at 2230fps with a 250gr bullet and was the darling of the veld in Africa.

One other thing I like to point out in this chart is the 9X57 - not too shabby!

 

[TX_GreatPlains]

I spent a day with Mr. Keith in May, 1977. He was a true gentleman and treated me as if I was his grandson. He told me all he wrote about was his experiences only and others would have different. He told me a lot of his long range shots were lucky hits but, if one shot every day, one would be more lucky.

We must remember the bullets back then was very different than today. His dislike of the .30'06 was birthed because of his modification of the 173 grain FMJ. He would file the point down until lead showed and got miserable results. He did say that the 220 grain round nose bullet in the '06 killed acceptably.

A lot of folks think he was bragging about his exploits but, he was just reporting the facts I believe. It was a great day!

Thanks for sharing. That’s an amazing experience. He is one of the giants in my book.

 

[TX_GreatPlains]

I often point out that the 338-06 and the 333OKH are really just newer versions of the 318 Westley Richards which had a .330" dia. bullet.
In period, it was listed at 2230fps with a 250gr bullet and was the darling of the veld in Africa.

One other thing I like to point out in this chart is the 9X57 - not too shabby!
View attachment 745765

Not shabby. Keith mentions it as an excellent cartridge but prefers the 300gr for large game