.333 O.K.H.

[Choupique]

I believe Winchester used the .338 caliber because they already had a lot of bullets on hand for some other now defunct cartridge they were selling in years prior to the .338 win mag being released. The .338 was an otherwise unused caliber in that day. Since becoming popular with the long range crowd, .338 caliber is ubiquitous now, but wasn't so in the 50's. Basically, Winchester make a business decision based on available inventory and tooling at the time and that's why we have the .338 win mag and not the .333 or .325 or .358 win mag instead.

I'm a big fan of the .338 winchester, I'd have no concerns hunting anything on earth with one with the proper bullets. I've also found it very easy to load for. So far, I haven't found a reload recepie yet my rifle doesn't like, even trail boss loads!

 

[DG870]

338-06 is a pretty good round. You can get 2500 fps with 250 grain bullets using published load data. I’m sure Elmer could coax 2400 fps using 300 grain bullets. I’m sure he had to hammer a few bolts open in his load development.

 

[TX_GreatPlains]

I agree, I also don't understand how they were able to get 2400fps out of a '06 case...

And did they?

I mean, I can't imagine chronographs being that plentiful back then, how did they actually determine that velocity?
Did they actually have access to a chronograph?

And if they did have access to a chronograph, once again, how did they manage to get that velocity safely?

I also agree with you on your point when you ask why aren't people doing it now with their .338-06 etc...
We have better powders now so has the only thing changed that chronographs are now so accessible?

I have been hunting, shooting and reloading now for a long time. And in that time I have heard many, many claims of what people have said about their 'pet' loads...
I'm in the camp now where unless it is shot in front of me - with my chronograph, I take it all with a grain of salt.
On more than one occasion my chronograph has hurt someone's feelings...

Elmer Keith is certainly a legend, but I'm sure like all of us he had his prejudices, his likes and his dislikes.
And like the rest of us I'm sure he wrote more favourably about the things he liked as opposed to the things he disliked.

Of course this is all just my 0.02...

Russ

I understand skepticism but we aren’t talking about wannabe Rambo at the shooting range. We tend to believe our modern methods are far superior but remember Mr, Keith had powerful friends. He had access to the best technology had to offer at that time. If you really think about it what have we accomplished that they didn’t back then? The 6.5 Creedmoor maybe. What an accomplishment. The only real advancement I’ve seen is in hunting optics not cartridges. Another pic of Keith’s imaginary data:

I’m sticking to my guns that this cartridge was excellent and spanked 338 Mag. The biases came from large ammo manufacturing and profit motivation. For recoil a 338 gives and only shooting an 225gr bullet I don’t think we made a good trade off for the 333 OKH

 

[DG870]

Sorry. This was supposed to be attached to my post.

 

[TX_GreatPlains]

More data. Keith had tons of trigger time on this cartridge. This was no fly by night pet cartridge in my opinion

 

[Choupique]

this cartridge was excellent and spanked 338 Mag.

Excellent, probably so, but I don't think it could have spanked the win mag. The win mag is bigger in every direction. The load data does seem to be lightening up year over year for the win mag, as it is for a lot of dinosaurs, and a lot of it isn't all that impressive.

We still have the .338-06 which is practically identical to the OKH, and it is odd that it never achieved any popularity at all. I think it's because it's just too much of a niche between the '06 and the whelen. Still, the .338-06 (and the .33 OKH) both fill an interesting spot that seems like it would have been popular state side.

Winchester did screw up. They should have based their "short magnums" of the 50's and 60's (except the .458) off of the .404 jeff rather than the H&H. Unfortunately, the marketing team dictated that high performance cartridges must have belts, even if they are superflous.

 

[MontanaGrant]

Just for what it’s worth:
I believe the 300 grain@2400fps is for the .333 belted OKH.

Not the rimless .333 OKH.

 

[C.W. Richter]

Art Alphin discussed it, along with others half a century or more ago, and it was part of the reason A-Sq standardized the .338-06 A-Sq. I have one (A-sq). Yes, it's possible to push old Barnes Original 300 grain slugs to 2,440 fps. I took it to Africa and after that trip, I was with Robert Ruark's mentality!!! ("UMG!") Its home is in a lightweight, all-weather gun for the combined deer/black bear (and elk) seasons in the US. Also great for boar/stag! In Africa, for PG, my .338 A-Sq (.338-378 Wby predecessor) is a MUCH better choice! The .338-06 A-Sq is at home with 185 TTSXs at nearly 3,000 fps and 210 NPs at 2,900 using 4064. The .338-06 AI is a wise idea, as you'll wring another 150 fps out of it and can still use factory (A-Sq) spec ammo in a pinch (and that's how the AI brass is formed anyway.) 250 gr bullets are best in this rig for bigger stuff (gemsbok, zebra, moose, eland,) but I'd take Ruark's advice instead... Mine is a Wby ultralightweight stainless/synthetic but the M70s A-Sq made in this caliber were gorgeous guns.

 

[C.W. Richter]

It falls short of a 338 WM, and even that doesn't impress me (it's a shorter mag to fit a std LA.) The Ackley Improved variant is on the heels of the WM. The bigger cased 338s blow it out of the water. They are pleasant to shoot (in a properly designed gun) print mickey mouse groups and pack a punch way out! "Hell, He was There!" lol EK was really something.

 

[Choupique]

300 grain@2400fps is for the .333 belted OKH.

Not the rimless .333 OKH.

That makes more sense.

It is interesting to compare load data from old to new. The spiciest 250gr loads for the win mag are usually low 2700's from a 24" barrel. I don't understand how Mr Keith was able to achieve more speed from a smaller case, smaller bore, standard primers and surplus cannon powder without stuck cases and blown primers. My hunting reloads are moving 250gr bullets at ~ 2780 fps from a 26" barrel and I wouldn't be comfortable pushing them any faster, and that's over standard COAL.

I'll be the one to say it (as a big fan of Mr Keith's work and .338 reloader), I think his numbers were embellished. I think chronographs of his day were tremendously less accurate than what we have available to us today. I am very skeptical Mr Keith actually achieved 2900 fps with 250gr bullets and a load that was still safe and reliable in the field. With even the best powders for this use we have today (H4831, R19, H4350, etc) I'm not able to get anywhere close to that with a cartridge that physics says should be faster across the board.

 

[318AE]

One thing not mentioned yet is the barrel twist rates required to stabilize a 300 gr .333 caliber bullet. It’s likely rather like the “6.8” version of the 270 today. I have no doubt a 300 gr .333 caliber bullet is quite effective if stabilized. I don’t really hear about anyone loading a 300 gr bullet in a 338 WM.

 

[C.W. Richter]

Bear in-mind this is an average of an entire database. IF the best powder, primer were selected the Ackley variant would essentially equal the WM using individual load data (WM is a 2,850 fps rig that falls short of "Magnum" glory.) Even more sales-pitch on the WM than the OKH. Now I recall one of those giant old book of Wildcats discusses this very topic.

 

[dgr416]

I have Elmer Keiths 1943 made 1917 Endfield in 333 okh belted mag .This is what turned into the 338 win mag .It was made by Charlie Oneal stsmped on the barrel .Elmer took it to Alaska and Charlie took it to Africa .I have a jar of 300 count 300 grain bullets .333 that Elmer and Fred Barnes made .Winchester changed the diameter to 338 and blewbout the case some .The 333 belted mag looks like a minature 375 hh .I have to get the recoil pad and scope mount straighten out to shoot it pad rotted and somehow the scope mount wesver extended rings is crooked .This rifle has the biggest cheek piece you ever seen .Quality brass used a piece of my once fired brass to make brass.There are not many of this caliber made .

 

[Choupique]

I have Elmer Keiths 1943 made 1917 Endfield in 333 okh belted mag

That is extremely cool. Put us some pictures!

 

[TX_GreatPlains]

Bear in-mind this is an average of an entire database. IF the best powder, primer were selected the Ackley variant would essentially equal the WM using individual load data (WM is a 2,850 fps rig that falls short of "Magnum" glory.) Even more sales-pitch on the WM than the OKH. Now I recall one of those giant old book of Wildcats discusses this very topic.

Good data. Average of all those tested bullet weights is 217gr. I believe the main attribute of the 333 is the 300gr projectile. Are we all in agreement that for large dangerous game a lower velocity heavy bullet is best or has modern wisdom disproved that? Otherwise WBY mags may get more love on AH. I’m asking sincerely b/c it is obvious most of you know more than I do. I appreciate your input, I like to learn and get better.

 

[TX_GreatPlains]

I have Elmer Keiths 1943 made 1917 Endfield in 333 okh belted mag .This is what turned into the 338 win mag .It was made by Charlie Oneal stsmped on the barrel .Elmer took it to Alaska and Charlie took it to Africa .I have a jar of 300 count 300 grain bullets .333 that Elmer and Fred Barnes made .Winchester changed the diameter to 338 and blewbout the case some .The 333 belted mag looks like a minature 375 hh .I have to get the recoil pad and scope mount straighten out to shoot it pad rotted and somehow the scope mount wesver extended rings is crooked .This rifle has the biggest cheek piece you ever seen .Quality brass used a piece of my once fired brass to make brass.There are not many of this caliber made .

Wow!!

 

[C.W. Richter]

The 300 gr Barnes Original SPs printed very well in my (identical to OKH) 338-06 A-Sq with 1:10" rifling. That bullet was so old when i got two boxes, that 20 yrs ago Barnes dropped it from the reloading manual. I got in contact with Ty Herring at Barnes (2 decades ago) and he provided me with bullet specs and old load data (and also same for the new 350 gr TSX in .375 which wasn't yet featured in any manuals.) I recall him saying, (using the '06 case) "keep the distance under 150 yds and you should be good to go!" 'Took a behemoth of a Livingstone's Eland with it (at 50 and 150 yds,) but I quickly realized there was a better gun to get that job done. 'Still have 2 boxes of the 300s. I'll likely use 'em in the bigger cased .338 A-Sq. IF the bullets were tougher, I'd have no issue using that on Buff where allowed, as it has one of the highest SDs deep into the .300s.

 

[dgr416]

I am so glad i got the dies with it Elmers dies and 600 of his bullets him and Fred Barnes made .Connie Brooks remenbered Elmer coming over to make those bullets with Fred Barnes .I bought a bunch of Elmers favorite bullet the speer 275 grain a good long range bullets i was lucky to find them in .333 from long ago .I need to swage down some .338 bullets .The action is so long thaf the distance between the scope rings is way longer than normal .It had a redfield 3x9 with accutrack which Elmer helped invent too .My gunsmith who i fully Trusted with any gun retired and now I gotta find another one .The ejector blade broke from running forned brass through it to make sure it fit before I load it .My neighbor Don helped me replace that was not easy to do .I want a one piece scope base on it has two piece weaver mounts now .I had one scope out of 60 thst fit this rifle a cheap busnell 3x8x50.I want one of my nice Nikons on it .You can make brass from 7 mm rem mag or 338 rem mag next time i will anneal it to make it better .

 

[C.W. Richter]

I would NOT consider using a 300 gr .338 on African DG in an '06 case. No way, no how! Maybe a 250 gr properly-selected modern bullet in a larger cased 338 for cats or croc. The OKH is NOT a DG gun. It's what we like to call, one of the first renditions of the "poor man's magnum," which it fails short of, but fine for NA game. Was it Gibbs that did such things prior to OKH? You could take a leopard or croc with it, but again, I'd channel Ruark! The 338-06 A-Sq is phenomenally accurate (as are all my .338s.) The 338 A-Sq is tied for 3 most accurate guns, ever, but the 06 will shoot <0.75" groups all day. Elk, black bear and deer is where it's at. There's a story in the Barnes manual about Chub Eastman being on a (moose I think) hunt and encountering a big brown bear, so he took it with the .338-06 he was carrying for moose (using 250 gr TSX) "and fell in-love with it." LOL NOT my 1st choice for coastal brown bear (but the bullet did the work at close range)!

 

[C.W. Richter]

i think you're talking about the 334 OKH (300 HH cartridge necked up), not the 333 which uses the 06 case.