.270 vs 7*57 Which is the best???

[C.W. Richter]

Did Jack O'Connor ever make it to Africa? (Or did his sponsors only spring for ultrathin-skinned sheep hunts on the same continent??) LOL

 

[bruce moulds]

would bell have used a 280 for preference if it was available then with modern bullets?
bruce.

 

[C.W. Richter]

757 Ackley improved from my family's 300-yard range yesterday...

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

757 Ackley improved from my family's 300-yard range yesterday...View attachment 368722View attachment 368722View attachment 368723View attachment 368723View attachment 368724View attachment 368724

C.W. Richter
If'n that's a 300 yard group gold plate it, frame the target and hang them on the wall for 7mm any sayers.
Bob

 

[C.W. Richter]

would bell have used a 280 for preference if it was available then with modern bullets?
bruce.

No. Because the 757 offers the same V with less powder and recoil (and a shorter gun/action-if desired.) He'd prefer the tried-and-true Mauser action. Not some push-feed coca-cola from America (that wasn't even available then.) Even Rem/Win/Wby et. al. all made great guns once upon a time with the Mauser action (designed by the same guy, Paul Mauser, that crafted the 757 case-which John Browning essentially copied in his '06 nearly 10 yrs. later.) I own 06 guns, but I love my 257 & 757 AIs more. Just because a case contains more powder, it does not mean that additional velocity is guaranteed. At a certain point, the efficiency is lost. It's a balance between shape and capacity...

 

[C.W. Richter]

would bell have used a 280 for preference if it was available then with modern bullets?
bruce.

(I suspect,) No. Just reading 310 of his hand-written pages. No. He'd far prefer the unadulterated Paul Mauser action (1895) over the current-day (Browning 1903) re-creations. Even the early Rem/Win/Wby et. al.'s all used Mauser actions, but he used what was available to him. A larger bullet frontal area, a heaver bullet with a higher SD penetrate and perform better than a gun offering just higher velocity and a lighter slug. It's not just powder capacity but a balance between cartridge shape, frontal area, SD, lower recoil for accurately placed shots (although everyone but kids agree that a 270 is quite manageable-esp with the poor-for-Africa 130 gr slugs everyone shoots thin-skinned game in America at lower velocities than the sales & marketing dep't. prints on the box lol Here's a great visual summary of what I've said above...coming from nearly 1/2 century of handloading and shooting. I favor Ackley's simple Improvements. 'Just a chamber reaming away-'Don't even have to take the gun apart if you wish, And you can still use factory ammo if desired (or your baggage gets lost in transit.) In addition, most 270s are equipped with rifling too slow to stabilize the heavier, higher SD bullets that are definitely required for hunting in Africa (or highly recommended for med. game in America-elk/black bear/caribou/moose,) whereas the 757 is a champ be it 130s (America) 140-160-175 grainers. It's the most classic example of "The Bullet Does ALL the Work." Once you add P.O. Ackley to the equation, the 757 knocks the 270 (and 280) out of the park!

 

[C.W. Richter]

In the end, it's "whatever floats your boat," but you had mentioned kids. So...Africa? Kids? 757. When sales of the sporterized 30-06s were dropping off after wartime b/c the market was saturated, they had to come up with the latest, greatest thing (sound familiar? lol). And, Jack O'Connor wrote about the new thing and it sold like wildfire...until the Magnum craze came along... All you really need in Africa is a 375. But, we all like guns. Some of us like gunsmithing, reloading, ballistics, terminal performance at expected range, et. al. and that's where we turn a blind eye to factory coca-cola and pay attention to detail...In a rural PA farming town, the local gun shop sells 3-4 different varieties of 757 ammo. They have countless 130 gr 270s that are really unfit for African game (too low an SD-like a varmint bullet over there.) Fine for the pygmy antelope, springbok, impala, etc. but why bring another gun?

 

[bruce moulds]

the 7x57 ackley has about the same capacity as the 280 rem, so i rest my case.
just because the 280 is available in push feed does not mean that is the only choice.
the 06 case is an improvement on the 7x57 in that it has a lot less taper in the case.
the 280 is still an efficient case capacity, the same as the x57 ackley.
if you don't get more speed than the stx57 case, look somewhere for the problem.
if bell could have had a 280 loaded with 160 swifts, he would have preferred it to the x57 with the 175 gn cup and core available in the day.
bruce.

 

[C.W. Richter]

And, finally, if you don't believe me, I'll quote one of the most proficient modern gunsmiths/ballisticians America was ever blessed with (Col. Art Alphin.) Quoting him: "Many people tried to make the .270 into something it wasn't. They recommended its use for medium game (bear/elk/caribou/etc.) However, in the final analysis, I believe this is not what the cartridge was designed for, and is much akin to carrying bags of cement in your Corvette. You can put a bunch of bags in the luggage rack, and the car will get down the road, but it's not quite so good as a pickup truck for that purpose." He does not say this about the tried-and-true (in AFRICA) 7x57mm Mauser (aka 275 Rigby after war reparations.) lol Art only cared about his research. He did turn it into an industry for profit. He absolutely did not sell out to the media, such that every Walmart had his product. Far from it. A-Sq guns and ammo are of top quality and the results in Africa bear that out...

 

[C.W. Richter]

Yes. If only Kublai Khan had a 50 BMG full-auto. He did, however, take RBG to the prom!!!

 

[C.W. Richter]

C.W. Richter
If'n that's a 300 yard group gold plate it, frame the target and hang them on the wall for 7mm any sayers.
Bob

*my secret is using reading glasses on this non-first focal plane scope. How i love the few first focal planes as the reticle is right in front of your eye and the target way in the background-so no eye hardware required! (Burris Veracity 3-15x does this.) Sadly, not on the gun featured in the photo Also notice I didn't "cheat" using plastic tipped bullets advertised on TV. Nosler partitions. They perform much better on the far end, and in my experience can shoot very accurately out to 400-450 yards, which is more than fine for most. IF i have to "cheat," I'll throw in a Berger VLD to make that once (twice, or thrice) in a lifetime shot way out, count. The 757 AI (using 140 gr bullets) generally runs out of steam for hunting performance at 600 yds. On the other hand, with the 175 gr bullet, the range for hunting is extended to 900-1,000 yds for those so inclined. This is probably not an issue in Africa, but for light-skinned deer, antelope, elk, caribou in America-it can be done! The 140-160 are all i need for this old Win/Montana re-barreled beauty queen on any continent. If i need more gun, I'll go to the .338 or .416.

 

[gillettehunter]

O'conner hunted Africa. What most seem to of forgotten is that his wife, Elanor hunted with the 7X57. It was a cartridge that he approved of obviously. He was the original champion for the .270. He usually used 130 gr bullets. He considered that ideal for sheep and deer sized animals.
Bruce

 

[inkonkoni]

@Bobjan Boy

For what it is worth, I don't yet own a 7x57... I am still looking. However, I do won a BRNO ZKK600 .270win fitted with a "Plastic" Camo stock and a neat little 3-9x40 Linx rifle scope.

2 Years ago, with it being fed my hornady 150gn Interlock hanloads loaded to 2540 fps Mysalf and a friends son (Then age 11) both shot Impala and Blue wildebeest in at Mkuze Ranch near Pongola in northern KZN.

As for the somewhat anaemic load, it was done on purpose to reduce recoil and what a great inside 150m load it proved to be. Not a single bullet recover and all shots were basic heart/lung shots.

Performance on game was excellent with only one fouweled up shot by me on an Impala female. Note to self, Pay carefull attention to tree branches when taking aim .

I have found the 270 very versatile and even with standard ammo of the shelf generally ver accurate with manageble recoil.

I would most likely base my choice on the condition of the actual rifles rather than purely on caliber.

Attached is a young BWB showing the exit wound on a slightly quatering shot...

Shoot straight!
Inkonkoni

 

[Professor Mawla]

(I suspect,) No. Just reading 310 of his hand-written pages. No. He'd far prefer the unadulterated Paul Mauser action (1895) over the current-day (Browning 1903) re-creations. Even the early Rem/Win/Wby et. al.'s all used Mauser actions, but he used what was available to him. A larger bullet frontal area, a heaver bullet with a higher SD penetrate and perform better than a gun offering just higher velocity and a lighter slug. It's not just powder capacity but a balance between cartridge shape, frontal area, SD, lower recoil for accurately placed shots (although everyone but kids agree that a 270 is quite manageable-esp with the poor-for-Africa 130 gr slugs everyone shoots thin-skinned game in America at lower velocities than the sales & marketing dep't. prints on the box lol Here's a great visual summary of what I've said above...coming from nearly 1/2 century of handloading and shooting. I favor Ackley's simple Improvements. 'Just a chamber reaming away-'Don't even have to take the gun apart if you wish, And you can still use factory ammo if desired (or your baggage gets lost in transit.) In addition, most 270s are equipped with rifling too slow to stabilize the heavier, higher SD bullets that are definitely required for hunting in Africa (or highly recommended for med. game in America-elk/black bear/caribou/moose,) whereas the 757 is a champ be it 130s (America) 140-160-175 grainers. It's the most classic example of "The Bullet Does ALL the Work." Once you add P.O. Ackley to the equation, the 757 knocks the 270 (and 280) out of the park!

@C.W. Richter
An interesting bit of trivia : WDM Bell wrote one final article for American Rifleman in 1954 , prior to his death . In it , he mentions that ( were he hunting elephants again in modern times ) his rifle of choice would be a Winchester Model 70 in .308 Winchester . And he would use monometal brass bullets .

This was a gentleman with an immense degree of foresight . In 1954 , he predicted that monometal brass bullets would one day replace conventional full metal jacket bullets . 30 years later , the first monometal naval bronze bullets began to be commercially sold by A-Square .

 

[lwaters]

Did Jack O'Connor ever make it to Africa? (Or did his sponsors only spring for ultrathin-skinned sheep hunts on the same continent??) LOL

Jack did several African hunts. I believe Leonard shot an elephant with a 30-06.

 

[Professor Mawla]

Jack did several African hunts. I believe Leonard shot an elephant with a 30-06.

@lwaters
That is correct . Eleanor O Connor shot an African elephant bull in 1962 with her .30-06 Springfield . The bullet was a 220 grain home made monometal solid . Turned on a lathe from naval bronze .

 

[C.W. Richter]

@C.W. Richter
An interesting bit of trivia : WDM Bell wrote one final article for American Rifleman in 1954 , prior to his death . In it , he mentions that ( were he hunting elephants again in modern times ) his rifle of choice would be a Winchester Model 70 in .308 Winchester . And he would use monometal brass bullets .

This was a gentleman with an immense degree of foresight . In 1954 , he predicted that monometal brass bullets would one day replace conventional full metal jacket bullets . 30 years later , the first monometal naval bronze bullets began to be commercially sold by A-Square .

That Is an interesting bit of trivia, Professor! Thank you for sharing. How I wish A-Sq.'s "Triad" of bullets were still available today....I have some .338s still, but that will be the end of it. At least we can have his guns. Whelan would agree that they're exceedingly "Interesting!!!" 'Additionally, agree with what Bell said re: the .308 (FMJs available, heavy for caliber, even larger frontal area, Mauser-style action, etc.) With today's powders it is equal to yesterday's 30-06 performance.

 

[C.W. Richter]

Jack did several African hunts. I believe Leonard shot an elephant with a 30-06.

Hemmingway shot EVERYTHING with a 30-06 (using high SD, heaviest for caliber 220 gr FMJ slugs) to good effect, although it kept his PH on his toes!!! Born in 1899, he must've known the works of Bell?

 

[shark_za]

2 Years ago, with it being fed my hornady 150gn Interlock hanloads loaded to 2540 fps Mysalf and a friends son (Then age 11) both shot Impala and Blue wildebeest in at Mkuze Ranch near Pongola in northern KZN.

As for the somewhat anaemic load, it was done on purpose to reduce recoil and what a great inside 150m load it proved to be. Not a single bullet recover and all shots were basic heart/lung shots.

Performance on game was excellent with only one fouweled up shot by me on an Impala female. Note to self, Pay carefull attention to tree branches when taking aim .

You turned it into a 6.5x55; what else did you expect apart from stellar performance?

 

[ldmay375]

Forty Years with the Little 7mm

Jack O' Connor explains the why and how of the current spate of interest in the little 7mm, the 7X57, from the pages of the Gun Digest 1974 annual edition.

gundigest.com

An interesting little article, by Jack O’Connor, regarding the 7x57.