.223/5.56x45 ammunition question

[Jwg223]

I am looking for experiences using .223 or 5.56 ammunition. Specifically, I plan to use it for hogs, southern US deer, and vermin. Most ammunition studies in this caliber that I have seen are directed toward antipersonnel/LE/.mil use, and not game animals. Projectiles I am considering are 75gr gold dot, 55gr gmx, and similar. I would be very interested in how these have worked in the real world and on what size game. I am interested in things like game reaction, expansion and how rapidly it happened, wound tract damage, weight and shape retention, etc.

 

[K-man]

I use my .223 a lot (as in 20-50 rounds a month on live targets) Your expanding bullets are great on the vermin like coyotes, raccoons, etc. especially in the 50-55 grain range. They will explode on small game which is what they are designed to do. I shoot a lot of 50 grn V-max. Use a well constructed bullet on hogs and deer, I tend toward a barnes tsx with 75 or 85 grain. your shot placement must be almost perfect shooting such a small caliber. It is our legal minimum caliber for deer with at least 55 grain. You also need to shoot what groups well with your gun. Stay away from the FMJ on live game. Practice, practice, practice. And Welcome!!!

 

[CAustin]

I have a Colt M4 in 5.56 NATO. This rifle is fun when hunting hogs. The anti personnel rounds work fine on swine. If you are using a 10-15 round mag you have a chance to get two or three hogs out of a sounder. K-man is correct on a deer the shot placement has to be very good or your going to be tracking a long way.

 

[ChrisG]

I haven't taken deer with mine. Its a ruger american ranch with the 16" barrel so velocities are not as high as they would be from a 22". I have taken a number of woodchucks with it though. I shoot a standard 60 Grain Hornady SP downloaded to 2750fps. Not the super explosive one mind you.. just the regular SP. At ranges out to 200 yards it goes through a 12lb groundhog from any angle and leaves a 1" exit wound. even at 50 yards, the bullets expand and don't explode. My father took several deer in his younger years up in the high peaks of the Adirondacks with a .222 Rem that I also inherited. He used a 50 grain Sierra SP at about 2750 fps. One shot through the ribs and that was that for those deer. DON'T SHOOT FOR THE SHOULDER! You might break it but the changes are low that a cup and core round will continue straight on through and kill effectively... Remember, you have enough power to kill but you have little to spare. It is unlikely you will get a passthrough with a .223 unless you use a TSX or similar. I am not saying it's impossible with a cup and core... just not likely. If you are patient and wait for a good shot... you don't need premium bullets... but they aren't all that expensive in .224 and they are likely worth it if you hit something you weren't fully intending on having to penetrate. If you handload, slow them down to about .30-06 velocity and I think you will see an dramatic improvement in penetration. a .22 caliber hole generally doesn't bleed much, so brush up on your "tracking without blood spoor" skills.

You'll always find exceptions to everything I have put up above but I think it is pretty sound advice, coming from someone who has never shot large game with a .223 before and based soley on 2nd hand knowledge and my knowledge of hunting larger game with bigger guns. In all... i think there are a lot worse calibers to hunt deer and hogs with. If I had a perfect shot through the ribs and 60 Grain TSX, i might even be tempted on a medium sized black bear.

 

[mdwest]

I use the Norma SSA (Silver State Armory) 64gr bonded for deer/hogs..

It uses the same projectile, and replicates the performance of the FBI load that they use in their M4's.

Works like a champ.. feeds well.. good quality bullet that performs like its supposed to on flesh and bone..etc..etc.. and is reasonably priced for a high quality round.. (I think I paid about $17 for a box of 20 @ Cabellas a couple of weeks ago)..

 

[Jwg223]

I use the Norma SSA (Silver State Armory) 64gr bonded for deer/hogs..

It uses the same projectile, and replicates the performance of the FBI load that they use in their M4's.

Works like a champ.. feeds well.. good quality bullet that performs like its supposed to on flesh and bone..etc..etc.. and is reasonably priced for a high quality round.. (I think I paid about $17 for a box of 20 @ Cabellas a couple of weeks ago)..

I have used the FBI ammunition (RA556B) for my deer last year, and it worked great. I am always trying to improve on things, though, and looking for ideas. The RA556B punched clean through my 110#-ish deer, breaking ribs on the way in and out, poking a 1"-ish hole through the heart, and disabling both lungs adequately. 75 yards down a hill is where I found my doe, piled up dead as could be. I just wonder if a larger bullet (75gr Gold Dot) or a faster one (55gr GMX) would provide better results, or not.

 

[Jwg223]

I tested some 75gr Gold Dot (Fusion) @ 2500ish fps and some 55gr GMX @ 3100ish fps tonight. Target was about 3" thick pork meat.

I fully expected velocity to win the day, but it did NOT. Not at all. Both projectiles expanded near immediately although the Gold Dot seemed to get started maybe a mm or two earlier. By immediately, I mean a cone of destruction began less than 1cm from the front of the meat and continued out the other side. Both projectiles hit a witness plate (pie tin) behind the target, and both left near identical holes about the size of a quarter in the witness plate. I also noted that clumps of meat were projected against the tin, leaving a ton of little dimples. The GMX had more and deeper dimples than the Gold Dot. Otherwise, the witness plate was a wash.

What wasn't a wash, was the destruction on-target. The 75gr Gold Dot "blew the back off" of the roughly 6"x8"x3" chunks of pork. I mean, it wasn't a "cone" of destruction in the sense of a funnel or other 45* sloped cone, it was more like a 60-80* cone of destruction. The GMX was closer to a typical "funnel" shaped cone of missing meat. All-in-all, the 75gr Gold Dot seemed much more destructive to the soft tissue.

This seems to back both lab/gel testing, as well as anecdotal reports on here and other forums.

 

[Jwg223]

As a side note, I have tested the Ranger Bonded 64gr (RA556B/64gr Nosler Bonded), and it performed like a cross between GMX and Gold Dot. Expansion was near immediate like the Gold Dot, but the wound was a bit narrower. I think that the 75gr Gold Dot is the king of causing trauma, so far. Looking forward to shooting a deer or two with it this season to compare to RA556B (pictures of my deer taken with RA556B, below)

My very firstest deer ever, btw...

Ammo: Ra556b
Rifle: 16.1" Daniel defense with surefire 556-212
The shot: 25m to deer
The reaction: Deer "hunched/hopped", and then tore off running ultimately 70m down a hill and expired before I reached it (2-3min?) Its flight was erratic, and it hit several trees heading down the slope.

Deer was a doe, approximately 100-120# in weight.
Heart was hit, as we're both lungs. Heart was ruptured in several places from hydrostatic shock, in addition to the physical bullet path.

***What we can also learn from this, is that the proposition that a hydrostatic shock-wave within the CNS damaging the small vessels in the brain, leading to rapid incapacitation, as described by Michael Courtney, MD, is patently false. The heart was hit directly with a 5.56 round with enough force to cause structural failure beyond the path of the bullet, and the deer still made purposeful, directed movement, for 70 yards.

Entrance:

Exit:

Ground where she was hit (heart/lung tissue present):

Resolution:

40# of meat total, gave 5# or so to friends who invited me for the thanksgiving hunt I took her on! 20+ hours in a stand over the week-end paid off!

 

[ChrisG]

As a side note, I have tested the Ranger Bonded 64gr (RA556B/64gr Nosler Bonded), and it performed like a cross between GMX and Gold Dot. Expansion was near immediate like the Gold Dot, but the wound was a bit narrower. I think that the 75gr Gold Dot is the king of causing trauma, so far. Looking forward to shooting a deer or two with it this season to compare to RA556B (pictures of my deer taken with RA556B, below)

My very firstest deer ever, btw...

Ammo: Ra556b
Rifle: 16.1" Daniel defense with surefire 556-212
The shot: 25m to deer
The reaction: Deer "hunched/hopped", and then tore off running ultimately 70m down a hill and expired before I reached it (2-3min?) Its flight was erratic, and it hit several trees heading down the slope.

Deer was a doe, approximately 100-120# in weight.
Heart was hit, as we're both lungs. Heart was ruptured in several places from hydrostatic shock, in addition to the physical bullet path.

***What we can also learn from this, is that the proposition that a hydrostatic shock-wave within the CNS damaging the small vessels in the brain, leading to rapid incapacitation, as described by Michael Courtney, MD, is patently false. The heart was hit directly with a 5.56 round with enough force to cause structural failure beyond the path of the bullet, and the deer still made purposeful, directed movement, for 70 yards.

Entrance:

Exit:

Ground where she was hit (heart/lung tissue present):

Resolution:

40# of meat total, gave 5# or so to friends who invited me for the thanksgiving hunt I took her on! 20+ hours in a stand over the week-end paid off!

Nice! If I carried your hunting rifle afield in NY, I would likely have a 20+ year state prison sentence waiting for me... And I would get the following newspaper write-up excerpts after I was arrested...

Pistol Grip?!? That makes the weapon like 400x more dangerous! That's why soldiers should be the only ones with them!
Suppressor!? who are you James Bond?!? the only reason to own one is so you can murder people in complete silence!
30 Round Magazine? You shouldn't need more than one Round right?! (From someone who has never fired a gun in their life)
We aren't even allowed to carry a rifle with a magazine in it with a capacity over 5 rounds....

Welcome to the socialist state of NY. Stupid NYC Politics have ruined the more beautiful parts of this state.
Enjoy living in a free state for as long as you can!

Too many people spend $15 a pound for grass fed organic meat and then shun deer hunters for killing innocent animals... But it is the BEST grass fed meat around... unless you get the deer near a Monsanto Corn field...

Seems .223 will absolutely take down deer with the right load!

 

[Jwg223]

Yep. My 30 round mag had 28 rounds still in it. 100% legal as pictured in my state.

 

[Jwg223]

Just an update. A few friends of mine have now killed deer with 75gr Gold Dot. I saw one. The bullet entered right behind the left shoulder, and exited near the back of the (aft part) ribs on the right side. The result was a deer that ran a confused 50 yards while literally pumping blood out of its sides in such quantities "that there was no way something was going to live with that much blood loss" "Ray Charles could have tracked it, had it gone much of anywhere", per my friend. He said it did more damage than his .30-30 with Core Lokt last time he shot a deer there with it, and was very pleased. The below, is a text I got from another friend of mine (later also stating that the total distance penetrated including heavy neck bone was 20-24"):

 

[Velo Dog]

Hello fellow rifle enthusiasts and fellow hunters,

One of my relatives shot a man in the face with the standard issue 5.56 Nato ammunition.

In fairness to this cartridge, the projectile did pass through a windshield before striking the target.

It entered just below one eye, broke the bad guy's cheek bone, knocked him unconscious and left his eyeball hanging out by the wires.

Said bad guy lived through the gunshot wound, as well as the crash into a concrete object at around 50 or 60 MPH that, had resulted from driving while unconscious.

I believe the full metal jacket spitzer projectile was 69 grains, but not certain anymore, as he told me about this many years ago.

The shooter lamented the fact that himself and his crew were not permitted to arm themselves with either AK-47 or Socom weapons, for their deployment into an extremely hostile environment.

He said that he was certain a .30 projectile striking said bad guy just below one eye would have spared this fellow a trip to both the hospital and the jail.

This scenario does not relate very well to deer and swine hunting, since neither of those species are known to use automobiles with which to try and run over soldiers.

But it does relate to the .22 caliber compared to the .30 caliber in general, and the story has a happy enough ending that I thought it worth re-telling every Christmas Season.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[ChrisG]

Hello fellow rifle enthusiasts and fellow hunters,

One of my relatives shot a man in the face with the standard issue 5.56 Nato ammunition.

In fairness to this cartridge, the projectile did pass through a windshield before striking the target.

It entered just below one eye, broke the bad guy's cheek bone, knocked him unconscious and left his eyeball hanging out by the wires.

Said bad guy lived through the gunshot wound, as well as the crash into a concrete object at around 50 or 60 MPH that, had resulted from driving while unconscious.

I believe the full metal jacket spitzer projectile was 69 grains, but not certain anymore, as he told me about this many years ago.

The shooter lamented the fact that himself and his crew were not permitted to arm themselves with either AK-47 or Socom weapons, for their deployment into an extremely hostile environment.

He said that he was certain a .30 projectile striking said bad guy just below one eye would have spared this fellow a trip to both the hospital and the jail.

This scenario does not relate very well to deer and swine hunting, since neither of those species are known to use automobiles with which to try and run over soldiers.

But it does relate to the .22 caliber compared to the .30 caliber in general, and the story has a happy enough ending that I thought it worth re-telling every Christmas Season.

I believe it... Those little bullets don't stay nose on very well once they hit a very hard dense substance like glass. Probably hit the fellows face sideways. I think you can take deer with it. I just have much better options in my gun cabinet to risk a lost deer... especially when a .416 is so much more fun!

 

[lcq]

Hello fellow rifle enthusiasts and fellow hunters,

One of my relatives shot a man in the face with the standard issue 5.56 Nato ammunition.

In fairness to this cartridge, the projectile did pass through a windshield before striking the target.

It entered just below one eye, broke the bad guy's cheek bone, knocked him unconscious and left his eyeball hanging out by the wires.

Said bad guy lived through the gunshot wound, as well as the crash into a concrete object at around 50 or 60 MPH that, had resulted from driving while unconscious.

I believe the full metal jacket spitzer projectile was 69 grains, but not certain anymore, as he told me about this many years ago.

The shooter lamented the fact that himself and his crew were not permitted to arm themselves with either AK-47 or Socom weapons, for their deployment into an extremely hostile environment.

He said that he was certain a .30 projectile striking said bad guy just below one eye would have spared this fellow a trip to both the hospital and the jail.

This scenario does not relate very well to deer and swine hunting, since neither of those species are known to use automobiles with which to try and run over soldiers.

But it does relate to the .22 caliber compared to the .30 caliber in general, and the story has a happy enough ending that I thought it worth re-telling every Christmas Season.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

one of my shooting buddies CDN forces said that in the sandbox many of the flip flops were doped up on opiates. he is an outstanding shot and I have personally been in the butts at 900M where he landed 5 for 5 on the Huns Head with his 308. My bud landed 4 shots from a 20" C7 on a flip flop at about 500 before he went down. the hits showed clearly through the white man dress. The standard NATO 62gr ball is inadequate at range or after passing through a barrier. good old 7.62X51 (308) would have only required one shot at 500 instead of 4. sometimes the old ways are better, I have a soft spot for the old FN which were our club rifles before the Liberals declared them prohibited

 

[Jwg223]

Hello fellow rifle enthusiasts and fellow hunters,

One of my relatives shot a man in the face with the standard issue 5.56 Nato ammunition.

In fairness to this cartridge, the projectile did pass through a windshield before striking the target.

It entered just below one eye, broke the bad guy's cheek bone, knocked him unconscious and left his eyeball hanging out by the wires.

Said bad guy lived through the gunshot wound, as well as the crash into a concrete object at around 50 or 60 MPH that, had resulted from driving while unconscious.

I believe the full metal jacket spitzer projectile was 69 grains, but not certain anymore, as he told me about this many years ago.

The shooter lamented the fact that himself and his crew were not permitted to arm themselves with either AK-47 or Socom weapons, for their deployment into an extremely hostile environment.

He said that he was certain a .30 projectile striking said bad guy just below one eye would have spared this fellow a trip to both the hospital and the jail.

This scenario does not relate very well to deer and swine hunting, since neither of those species are known to use automobiles with which to try and run over soldiers.

But it does relate to the .22 caliber compared to the .30 caliber in general, and the story has a happy enough ending that I thought it worth re-telling every Christmas Season.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

This is why I have standardized on the 75gr Gold Dot. That 69gr was probably a SMK, and they only penetrate 3-6" after striking autoglass, and retain VERY LITTLE WEIGHT. The 75gr Gold Dot penetrates over the FBI 12" minimum after striking AG, and retains significant amount of weight. Much better round. M193/M855/MK262 are terrible choices where autoglass is concerned.

Lest you think this is "just a .22 thing", click on the tab at the bottom titled "Safety Glass" for both of these links...

http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/federal/rifle/details.aspx?id=150
http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/federal/rifle/details.aspx?id=689

Now compare it to the ammo I am using in .223, (same tab):
http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/speer/rifle/details.aspx?id=24475

It's a projectile thing...not a caliber thing, and as you can see, the 75gr .223 Gold Dot outperforms the 165gr .308 round in both cases. Not to say that the .308 DOESN'T come in an effective loading obviously, but simply to underscore that even a .308 can fail where the .223 won't, if you select ammo as such. Here is the bonded loading in .308:
http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/speer/rifle/details.aspx?id=24458

Neat how it doesn't penetrate any more, really, than the .223, huh? (does have more mass though, but a shot to the head with either would work...)

 

[ChrisG]

I don't usually shoot animals through my windshield, so most of this is just academic. Also, for the ordinary civilians, firing through auto glass in a legitimate defensive situation carries about the same probability of being struck by a meteroite and lightning at the same time while simultaneously winning the lottery.

This is not directed at you @Jwg223 but...

When I'm at a gun shop discussing hunting rifles and from over my shoulder I hear... "'X' round is better than 'Y' round because it is proven to have 30% better barrier penetration and a 13% higher one-shot-stop rating" I just role my eyes and usually start thinking of this:

It's especially irksome when I am discussing fine wood and blued hunting rifles and I hear that coming from behind me. I think ARs, FALs, Galils, AKs, etc. are fun to shoot on the range, I have owned them and I'm glad our soldiers are so well equipped. But I don't base my hunting bullets on what Massad Ayoob recommends for tactial entry. I am more kind of a Craig Boddington reader.

 

[Jwg223]

I don't usually shoot animals through my windshield, so most of this is just academic. Also, for the ordinary civilians, firing through auto glass in a legitimate defensive situation carries about the same probability of being struck by a meteroite and lightning at the same time while simultaneously winning the lottery.

This is not directed at you @Jwg223 but...

When I'm at a gun shop discussing hunting rifles and from over my shoulder I hear... "'X' round is better than 'Y' round because it is proven to have 30% better barrier penetration and a 13% higher one-shot-stop rating" I just role my eyes and usually start thinking of this:

It's especially irksome when I am discussing fine wood and blued hunting rifles and I hear that coming from behind me. I think ARs, FALs, Galils, AKs, etc. are fun to shoot on the range, I have owned them and I'm glad our soldiers are so well equipped. But I don't base my hunting bullets on what Massad Ayoob recommends for tactial entry. I am more kind of a Craig Boddington reader.

I like to compare bullets in gel, as well as real animals. When they coincide with each other (which they always do in my experience), you know you have a winner. This Gold Dot 75gr stuff is a winner, in my book.

 

[ChrisG]

I like to compare bullets in gel, as well as real animals. When they coincide with each other (which they always do in my experience), you know you have a winner. This Gold Dot 75gr stuff is a winner, in my book.

And it obviously works... But I take it you understand my rant...

I can almost generalize every conversation I have had with these commandos... it goes something like:

Commando: "Thats a nice rifle"
Me: "Thanks"
Commando: "What bullet does it shoot?" (Can't differentiate between "bullet" and "chambering")
Me: "It's a... (I get cut off) "
Commando: "Yeah, I shoot a (Insert 10lb semi auto) with ACOG sight and a 20 round mag on a ching sling. Shoot some (insert expensive match/tactical ammo here) and it'll drop someone like a hammer."
Me: "That's nice."
Commando: "Yeah you need to use the six-five grendel, Its like hitting 'em with a bulldozer.. (All the while ignoring the fact that the rifle i am looking at is a .375 H&H)
Me:
Commando: "plus it's bolt action, what are you gonna do if you need another 10 or 15 shots? Scopes just slow you down..."
Me: ...........
Commando: "Yeah, mine's the same gun from COD4, set up the same way as Israeli spec ops uses, with same ammo that the SWAT has for clearing rooms, I carry it while I'm hiking in case i get attacked by drug farmers or a bear.... (we're in the Adirondacks of northern NY, not Columbia and judging by the typical commando physique, the longest hike they make is to the soda fountain.)"

Then his drone begins trailing off as I walk away before he starts talking about his "Squad tactics" or the 20,000 rounds of ammo he has stowed "just in case".

Never fails that like every other time I go to the a different LGS, one of these guys is there... My local Shooters supply won't even carry "Tactical" rifles because the owner doesn't like the attention they get from people who only know anything about them from video games.

Anyway, back to topic, yeah Gold Dots are great rounds. I used to carry them in 9mm as a armored car guard because they were recommended to me by a State Police Armorer. I see no reason they won't kill deer.

 

[Jwg223]

And it obviously works... But I take it you understand my rant...

I can almost generalize every conversation I have had with these commandos... it goes something like:

Commando: "Thats a nice rifle"
Me: "Thanks"
Commando: "What bullet does it shoot?" (Can't differentiate between "bullet" and "chambering")
Me: "It's a... (I get cut off) "
Commando: "Yeah, I shoot a (Insert 10lb semi auto) with ACOG sight and a 20 round mag on a ching sling. Shoot some (insert expensive match/tactical ammo here) and it'll drop someone like a hammer."
Me: "That's nice."
Commando: "Yeah you need to use the six-five grendel, Its like hitting 'em with a bulldozer.. (All the while ignoring the fact that the rifle i am looking at is a .375 H&H)
Me:
Commando: "plus it's bolt action, what are you gonna do if you need another 10 or 15 shots? Scopes just slow you down..."
Me: ...........
Commando: "Yeah, mine's the same gun from COD4, set up the same way as Israeli spec ops uses, with same ammo that the SWAT has for clearing rooms, I carry it while I'm hiking in case i get attacked by drug farmers or a bear.... (we're in the Adirondacks of northern NY, not Columbia and judging by the typical commando physique, the longest hike they make is to the soda fountain.)"

Then his drone begins trailing off as I walk away before he starts talking about his "Squad tactics" or the 20,000 rounds of ammo he has stowed "just in case".

Never fails that like every other time I go to the a different LGS, one of these guys is there... My local Shooters supply won't even carry "Tactical" rifles because the owner doesn't like the attention they get from people who only know anything about them from video games.

Anyway, back to topic, yeah Gold Dots are great rounds. I used to carry them in 9mm as a armored car guard because they were recommended to me by a State Police Armorer. I see no reason they won't kill deer.

I typically refuse to discuss my gear in public. For exactly this reason. But hunters with bolt guns are just as dumb and annoying sometimes. "Is that a five five six? Whooooweee! Those bullets is hot! Them casings burn so bad. I dunno what it is, but they is hot. They will scar you! Other casings is hot, but not...." I started shooting and ignored him after verifying everyone including him had earpro and range was hot. Seriously, he then started up again about hot hot the brass from a 5.56 was. It was asinine. And then..."what kind of license do you have? You need a license to own silencers right? " "yours isn't quiet. What does it take to get a military one that's a full on silencer and not just a suppressor (I am shooting surefire contract suppressors, same thing they delivered to the military).

I mean, the stupid never stops. So I just don't talk to people. I don't have the patience for it unless it's online, as when I'm online, it's because I am not also trying to do other things. Like shoot. Or buy something at the counter.

So yes, I can identify. I hear "those drugs aren't mine. Someone put them in my purse" and the like all the damn time. I'm painfully aware of how deep the stupid runs. And between you and me, as ashamed as I am to say it, sometimes I understand the antigunners. I really kind of do

PS. I hate the hardon American tacticool snobs have for Israeli junk. It's borne of ignorance. The galil was good. Otherwise, screw off with the Israeli junk. I get it. They are allies. They have been the butt of history since history began and they somehow are still here. Props. But their gear is several generations behind America and Germany.

/rant

About gold dots. I'm friends with some big people at ATK. That helps. The other side of the coin is that gold dot and fusion are some of the most accurate rifle rounds I've shot in .223. I am getting mk262 accuracy out of them. 10 shots in 1.0x to 1.3 inches at 100 from a chrome lined m4 barrel using a 4x nightforce. So I got some to a buddy of mine who does deer culls and hog culling (see above posts). He likes them. Then account for them passing all the fbi tests and the inside data I also have on how they are stacking up on the street. Now take into account they run me something like $0.50-0.60 a round, are sexy and nickel plated casings with sealed primers? How could I not stock up on a few thousand. I've yet to find another round that checked all my boxes. Not only that, but the I'll have a BC almost identical to mk262, and expand down to 16-1800fps or so, give or take. It's a recipe for perfection, in .223.

 

[ChrisG]

And between you and me, as ashamed as I am to say it, sometimes I understand the antigunners. I really kind of do

I hear ya... The land of the free.... the freedom to be stupid and ignorant should not be allowed though...