Vetting Outfitters And Shady Practices

Mtn_Infantry said:

That outfitter is not a sponsor, and that country only has one or two outfitters represented here as sponsors. The same goes for most of the “wild” countries in Africa. Unfortunately/Fortunately (depending upon how you look at it) the sponsoring outfitters here on AH are almost entirely compromised of South African and Namibian Outfitters. A majority of whom are hunting on ranches and other tracts of Private Land, often with fenced borders. In Africa Fair Chase and Free Range aren’t always synonymous with one another.

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Yes I know. I was simply saying they aren’t a sponsor so I didn’t feel comfortable listing their name as I don’t believe we are supposed to promote hunt offers from non-sponsors.

Russ16 said:

Yes I know. I was simply saying they aren’t a sponsor so I didn’t feel comfortable listing their name as I don’t believe we are supposed to promote hunt offers from non-sponsors.

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Understood … most will never see the true deals and offers that get sent because of the rules. Several AH members almost did the Mokore hunt, plans were made by one member but they took another hunter with sooner dates.

Just like the Lion & Leopard hunts Nick Nolte sent out a couple weeks ago. About a week after an unsuccessful one that had a lot of us following along.

.If the hunt is too cheap - too good to be true. The rule. Fine.

What if the hunt is overly priced?
Anybody looks at added values of that hunt?
What those might be? What extras to look for?

mark-hunter said:

.If the hunt is too cheap - too good to be true. The rule. Fine.

What if the hunt is overly priced?
Anybody looks at added values of that hunt?
What those might be? What extras to look for?

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You’re trying to make it too black and white. If a hunt is priced very inexpensive especially compared to similar options, you need to ask why. It’s not necessarily too good to be true, but your expectations need to be right. New outfitter establishing reputation, first year on unhunted area, additional quota issued, cancellations, etc are all reasons it could be priced lower. If it’s a first year on an area and no hunts have been conducted, I’d hope outfitter would be honest and say it’s more of an exploratory hunt for them and they can’t guarantee results but will try their best. If someone is trying to oversell an inexpensive hunt I’d ask a lot more questions. There are hunts sold that are too good to be true like the buffalo example here.
If a hunt is priced more expensive than hunts in adjacent areas I’d ask why again. If an outfitter has held the concession a number of years, has perfect reputation, put investment back into area to make better, and produces better trophies as a result I’d say it’s worth the added cost compared to the outfitter driving the concession boundary hoping something crosses in. However, I’d be checking with a lot of references to verify all those things are visible on the ground. There are hunts that are priced high for no valid reason other than the found someone who didn’t know better.

375Fox said:

You’re trying to make it too black and white.

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Well, making a little bit of contrast, makes a picture more clear.

Anyway, we touched the new subject.

Exploration hunts.
Outfitter new to the area, price reduced, the risk shared between hunter and outfitter.

I think it is nothing wrong with that.
But it must be advertised and defined as such.

"We took the new area. For first season we have reduced prices. etc etc"

Nothing wrong with that.

But:
I do not remember hunts being offered as "exploration hunts" on forum, and elsewhere.
This is new perspective.

Personally: I am no longer motivated by exportable trophy, I enjoy time in Africa, I have limit on my funds, and I would not mind going to exploration hunt.
But, that must be clearly defined in advance.

Exploration hunt sold as premium hunt, is not good.

But exploration hunt sold as exploration hunt, is OK in my view.
Admittedly it is not for someone who goes on safari with shopping list.

mark-hunter said:

Well, making a little bit of contrast, makes a picture more clear.

Anyway, we touched the new subject.

Exploration hunts.
Outfitter new to the area, price reduced, the risk shared between hunter and outfitter.

I think it is nothing wrong with that.
But it must be advertised and defined as such.

"We took the new area. For first season we have reduced prices. etc etc"

Nothing wrong with that.

But:
I do not remember hunts being offered as "exploration hunts" on forum, and elsewhere.
This is new perspective.

Personally: I am no longer motivated by exportable trophy, I enjoy time in Africa, I have limit on my funds, and I would not mind going to exploration hunt.
But, that must be clearly defined in advance.

Exploration hunt sold as premium hunt, is not good.

But exploration hunt sold as exploration hunt, is OK in my view.
Admittedly it is not for someone who goes on safari with shopping list.

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You aren’t going to see many of those offers on this forum. Most of the sponsors are South African or Namibian operating on private land. However, I’d also say there aren’t that many of those hunts now. We are losing hunting areas not gaining new ones, so most “exploratory” hunts will be previously established areas but maybe have been closed or limited legal hunting for several years with varying degrees of encroachment.

375Fox said:

You aren’t going to see many of those offers on this forum. Most of the sponsors are South African or Namibian operating on private land. However, I’d also say there aren’t that many of those hunts now. We are losing hunting areas not gaining new ones, so most “exploratory” hunts will be previously established areas but maybe have been closed or limited legal hunting for several years with varying degrees of encroachment.

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I think you’re 100% correct.

@mark-hunter aside from some very select areas and countries, you’re unlikely to find somewhere that’s new and hasn’t been hunted in recent times. An outfitter/PH should be able to easily get references from someone who previously hunted it, even 5 years ago. If that’s the case, I think almost all outfitters would offer this type of hunt to a repeat client/friend as a way to get their feet wet and hunt with a trusted proven companion and hunting partner. Another way to think of an exploratory hunt is maybe a new style of hunting, or portion of the concession that hasn’t really been hunted in the past; think hounds, foot safari, new roads/fly camp, etc. I can only ever remember seeing 1 African Hunt like this advertised as an exploratory hunt and it was during covid.

Each instance I’ve seen to be “the first” or one of the first hunters back into an area has commanded a premium price tag and involved some serious uncertainty and safety concerns. Most of the areas that type of “exploration” is happening in, is because of war or Terrorism and carries an increased risk. Look at Angola and the hunt DSC auctioned off. It brought a pretty penny, no import approval in sight and you had to worry about running over old mines. A lot of hunters and members on AH have spoken about concerns in Mozambique because of a couple random terror attacks in Niassa that have yet to involve any western hunters or foreign PH’s. I’m going to guess the number of hunters willing to go to hunt in a country in the middle of a civil war, or one being harassed by militant extremists and terrorists is even smaller, and the pool willing to pay a premium to do it is even less.

So now you’re asking hunters to pay a price similar to or more than Tanzania, so they can be “one of the first” hunters in an area like South Sudan, Burkina Faso, Mali, the Congo, or Chad; which all have a proven track record of kidnappings, ransoms, and beheading of foreigners in addition to organized attacks on private military contractors and defense forces. I have a pretty high risk tolerance compared to most, especially if the cost savings is there, and I assure you it’s not there yet for the countries above.

375Fox said:

You don’t hunt pride males because the new male will kill all the previous male’s young cubs to breed the females again. It could potentially have a negative impact on lion population in area. Most outfitters have it written in their policies. However, most PH’s are going to make a reasonable effort to say it’s not a pride male, not look for any reason it might be a pride male.

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When a lone, big mature male that is deemed to be over the legal age, on day 14 of the hunt walks into bait... it should be shot placement that is looked at. In 20 years of professional hunting videography, i have never had a Professional hunter judge a lion trophy looking at its ass, instead of its Face...

chslongrange8 said:

If I may add my two cents here. Am I correct in my understanding that you were not present on the hunt, and are hearing this from the client? I would also venture a guess, given your take and stance here, that you do not know Morgan, and have not spent more than a minute with him.

I know Morgan personally, and quite well at that. Admitting my bias up front, he is a very close friend. As such, he knows very well that if he was in the wrong, I'd call him out. However, Morgan is one of the most educated, and - more importantly - passionate sportsmen, let alone PH, that I have ever met. Under no circumstances would he intentionally make a poor decision on behalf of the client, or the wildlife.

It is the professional hunter's decision whether or not to kill an animal. Period. The species is irrelevant.

You mentioned that you do not have all sides of the story. What is the objective of your post? Morgan very likely made the correct decision. Even if he did not, it is still his decision to make. Including him in a post titled "...Sketchy Practices" is a bit of a stretch. Argue the decision all you want, but not the ethical practices of a man you do not know, who works for a family who pioneered this industry we all love so.

Hearsay seems to be doing a lot of heavy lifting here. We sure do a great job of fighting amongst ourselves when the rest of the world wants to see our passion outlawed.

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I was the Videographer who was present in the blind when this whole situation took place. I have never had a Professional hunter make a decision on turning a Lion of that caliber down based on stains on the back of its legs. Staining on the back of a lions legs are NOT an indication of its dominance, rather a clear sign of maturity. All male lions start to mark a territory when they come of age, weather it is thier territory or not. That is how territorial disputes happen with lions.
Leaving the hunt early was not due to the lion alone, it was the final straw for the client on an absolute cluster of a hunt. We did not once, in 2 weeks even go to a sitatunga Mashan to look for Sitatunga which was the main reason the client chose Luganzo. We had a leopard hit one of our baits and were then taken to 2 wrong bait sights before finally arriving at the bait which had actually been hit by the leopard. It took 5 hours to build a blind the following day and then tried to walk into the blind which was 24 yards from the bait and got lost in the dark because they had not marked our walk in. This obviosly alerted the leopard to our presence as it would no longer feed while we were there. You say Morgan very likely made the right decision? Then why in a meeting with Derek Hurt after the hunt, did he admit to my Brother, the client and myself that the he would have shot the lion. I trued to query Morgan on his instagram post with the lion which was CLEARLY not the same lion we had at the bait, and instead of a constructive discussion, he deleted all my posts and pictures and then he blocked me from his instagram. That my friend, is shady.

chslongrange8 said:

….by? I’d love to see a firsthand account from the hunter. The only one I’ve seen is Morgan’s post, which was nothing but respectful.

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I was there... i tried to communicate with Morgan on one of his instagram posts claiming a lion with a lioness was indeed the same lion. Along with contradicting photos i took of the lion that was turned down... only to have all my comments deleted by Morgan and then i was blocked from his page.

jswitzer said:

Did the hunter mention that Morgan suggested going to the Lukwati area because lions were better but the hunter chose Luganzo because of A

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We had a legal, lone trophy Male lion on bait in Luganzo... Morgan suggesting Lukwati is irrelevant at that stage...

This is a very informative article. Thank you for sharing this. Very important information for individuals considering going on a safari.

chslongrange8 said:

Hearsay is quite literally defined as secondhand information. Saying that rules were changed last minute is exactly that.

If I spent six figures and didn’t get to kill a lion, I’d be pissed too. Isn’t that the chance we all take though?

I’ve watched Morgan turn down hunts and send clients to other outfitters because the way he and RHS hunt, and their standards did not align with the hunter’s.

Your last paragraph is very well said. This doesn’t belong in

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Noah Hutchens said:

This is something off putting I took away from all the “Meat Eater” episodes with him, the whole “this is a great mature specimen but I’m going to make us pass because I believe we could do better” is so frustrating just to watch and I imagine twice as bad in person. If I was staring at mature beautiful LEGAL animals and constantly being told I can’t shoot because we could possibly do better I would lose all confidence. Maybe it’s not in the mindset for him that we all have limited time over there and not everyone is wanting the world record specimen. If we had endless time than sure I would pass on ones I though I could better but that is obviously not the case.

I wonder if I’m not the only one who decided after watching Meat Eater that I would never want to hunt with him.

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What made it even more frustrating was that we were hunting lion and needed bait.

AndyMac said:

I was the Videographer who was present in the blind when this whole situation took place. I have never had a Professional hunter make a decision on turning a Lion of that caliber down based on stains on the back of its legs. Staining on the back of a lions legs are NOT an indication of its dominance, rather a clear sign of maturity. All male lions start to mark a territory when they come of age, weather it is thier territory or not. That is how territorial disputes happen with lions.
Leaving the hunt early was not due to the lion alone, it was the final straw for the client on an absolute cluster of a hunt. We did not once, in 2 weeks even go to a sitatunga Mashan to look for Sitatunga which was the main reason the client chose Luganzo. We had a leopard hit one of our baits and were then taken to 2 wrong bait sights before finally arriving at the bait which had actually been hit by the leopard. It took 5 hours to build a blind the following day and then tried to walk into the blind which was 24 yards from the bait and got lost in the dark because they had not marked our walk in. This obviosly alerted the leopard to our presence as it would no longer feed while we were there. You say Morgan very likely made the right decision? Then why in a meeting with Derek Hurt after the hunt, did he admit to my Brother, the client and myself that the he would have shot the lion. I trued to query Morgan on his instagram post with the lion which was CLEARLY not the same lion we had at the bait, and instead of a constructive discussion, he deleted all my posts and pictures and then he blocked me from his instagram. That my friend, is shady.

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Andy,
Welcome to AH. I selfishly hope you’ll contribute some additional threads on some of your adventures across the lesser hunted areas of Africa, and for the more obscure hunts. The time you’ve spent in the bush is often unrivaled by some of the most experienced PH’s

Mtn_Infantry said:

Andy,
Welcome to AH. I selfishly hope you’ll contribute some additional threads on some of your adventures across the lesser hunted areas of Africa, and for the more obscure hunts. The time you’ve spent in the bush is often unrivaled by some of the most experienced PH’s

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agreed, most of the long time videographers in the industry, are almost like having a 2nd ph with you.

Mtn_Infantry said:

Andy,
Welcome to AH. I selfishly hope you’ll contribute some additional threads on some of your adventures across the lesser hunted areas of Africa, and for the more obscure hunts. The time you’ve spent in the bush is often unrivaled by some of the most experienced PH’s

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Adam Stevens said:

agreed, most of the long time videographers in the industry, are almost like having a 2nd ph with you.

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This is like an ESPN camera man telling a head coach of an NFL team what to do.

AndyMac said:

What made it even more frustrating was that we were hunting lion and needed bait.

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Are we really going to pretend like that male didn't just get collared?

jswitzer said:

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

Are we really going to pretend like that male didn't just get collared?

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Seems increasingly clear he shouldn’t be selling lion hunts. This lion is definitely worth a lot more alive if you can sell $100k daily rates (likely significantly more) over and over again. I’m certain they are doing great things for the area, but if he refuses to take any lions from an area selling those hunts should be called fraud. I said it earlier in this thread, if this was sold on non-lion day rates with a high lion trophy fee this discussion wouldn’t be taking place.

375Fox said:

Seems increasingly clear he shouldn’t be selling lion hunts. This lion is definitely worth a lot more alive if you can sell $100k daily rates over and over again. I’m certain they are doing great things for the area, but if he refuses to take any lions from an area selling those hunts should be called fraud. I said it earlier in this thread, if this was sold on non-lion day rates with a high lion trophy fee this discussion wouldn’t be taking place.

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You misunderstand the entire situation based upon gross and negligent misrepresentation. That's all that's going on here. Paint the ph as the bad guy regardless of the decisions made by the hunter and the others in camp.

jswitzer said:

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

Are we really going to pretend like that male didn't just get collared?

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Can't be sure, but this has the feeling of a contrived plot to save face and appease future clients with bookings into believing he was right.

Post the findings from the independent research team and who it was comprised of. Why was this done now and not before hundreds of thousands spent on fruitless claims?

Even if true, it actually makes their business practices seem worse that they do not know their area and what is in it before booking elaborate hunts.