The Cannon Myth: Why I'd Rather Hit Than Bruise

A dowel rod, moving at 2 ft per second, would have moved the plate as long as you maintained contact. Irrelevant
 
Tanks said:
Hmmm, in IPSC and its US equivalent USPSA .40 and 9mm are in different categories for the most part. I shoot limited in .40S&W with a 2011. Also, scoring is different in that a hit in the A zone is 5 points for Limited shooters and 4 points for production gun shooters (9 mm).
Click to expand...
Tanks, I'm aware of the different categories, yet question if the 9mm level of power is penalized sufficiently. After much training at **NOT**PERMITTED**, Thunder Ranch, and other notable schools since the 1990s, my general disagreement with USPCA type drills is their obsessive focus on Speed above most else, which inculcate bad habits, for example:
​
— dumping the mag before grabbing a new one​
— no Tap/Tug with mag insertion (really important when slide is in battery)​
— using the slide lock as a slide release, instead of racking the slide​
— unrealistic drills that reward speed instead of optimal gun handling/street tactics/troubleshooting​

Properly changing mags with above Steps #1-3 will certainly add a half-second, but it's time well worth spending in a gunfight since you'll know that 1) you've a spare mag, 2) it's fully inserted, and 3) your slide forward is more assured with a coarser movement which is also cross platformed (vs. different sizes and placements of slide locks of Glocks, 1911s, etc.).

This is no theoretical bloviation; a Tap-only mag insertion failed this cop and nearly got him killed when his inserted Glock mag fell out during a gunfight. From a post of mine on X:

Screenshot from 2025-07-08 13-43-47.png


Also, the 9mm competitors generally carry only 9mm in real life, because it's what they know best and not because it's the better caliber. Thus, not only have they cut corners in street gun handling, but they're using a lesser caliber as well.

I don't need to be quicker than my USPSA competitor. I need only be quicker than some Orc on the street. Of DVC, Speed is #3 in importance to me, as Power and Accuracy come first. Reasonably fast will likely be good enough in the real world.

Glad to see you shoot a .40! Carry on; good shooting.

guns, power vs. speed2.png
 
One Day... said:
Do not try to sermonize your way to the higher ground through once again lecturing, patronizing, lessons-giving, arrogant condescending, etc. @SStomcat, it does not work anymore. People have seen you, for who you really are.

You say that "knowledge, experience, and the willingness to engage constructively matter far more than a résumé." That is exactly what we ALL gave you for 25 pages, when you constantly berated knowledge, experience, and the willingness to engage constructively, that did not match your preconceived conclusion.

You may not have noticed that the 'résumé' only came after you repeatedly called me "spectacularly clueless", "confused", "irrelevant", with "nothing intelligent to add", and finally a "clown".

The humility was in NOT putting the accomplishments forward at the beginning of the thread. None of us did. The accountability, credibility, and responsibility for the arguments presented is to back them up, when questioned, with, precisely, the accomplishments.

You want credentials? I am going to give you credentials. The folks you like to ridicule, they went to Africa. Most of us many times. Did you? They killed elephant and buffalo. Most of us several times. Did you? As to me, whom you call "infamous joker" I also completed successfully the South Africa Professional Hunter Practical Exam, and I have the certificate to prove it. How does that strike you for a joke?

You ARE precisely a 'self-styled expert'. All you do is profess your armchair God-given truth. You have exactly zero credential, zero training, zero expertise, zero experience of DG hunting or DG rifles, yet you strut around in "your" thread, distributing magnanimous merit points, scolding demerits, and groveling the occasional brownie point, all while attempting to suppress through insult anyone whom you perceive may challenge you.

And stop attempting to court favors by playing referee between AH members. You may not know it, but @Red Leg and I are friends who share a lot of respect for each other and each other's posts, and happily agree that we have different perspectives, both perfectly valid, mostly due to our different personal preferences, which we mutually respect.

You are the only one here who is not "confident enough to have his views challenged without treating the person doing the challenging as an affront to his credentials", and the reason is very simple, you have zero credential.

You are pathetic, and do not come crying because after sowing the wind repeatedly, again, and again, and again, you now finally reap the whirlwind. Here comes YOUR accountability. You just went one step too far with your last shenanigan. What do you believe, that no one will dare confront you?

And please stop talking about respect. Start practicing it instead.

Ah, but yes, getting the last word, THAT is really important to you...

Since you have already been playing with yourself quite a bit in this thread, now go fly a kite.
Click to expand...
@oneday, thank you. Truly. A post that opens by condemning sermons and then runs eleven paragraphs, complete with a closing benediction. I’d call it a masterpiece of the genre, but I’ve been told I’m not qualified to judge :ROFLMAO:
You opened by telling me not to lecture, then lectured. You asked me to stop talking about respect and start practicing it, in the same post where you called me “pathetic,” told me to “go fly a kite,” and added a charming remark about how I spend my free time. I will treasure that lesson in civility.

I’m also touched that you speak for “ALL of us” and announce that “people have seen me for who I really am.” I didn’t realize we would taken a vote. Who counted the ballots? Is there a certificate?Probably you did, I give a damn.
Speaking of certificates, I see you’ve finally led with the résumé: Africa, elephant, buffalo, the Professional Hunter Practical Exam. Congratulations. But I must have missed the part where any of that answers the argument. A certificate can tell me where you’ve been. It can’t tell me whether you’re right. If it could, we could have skipped twenty-five pages and just exchanged laminated cards.
And the threats! “Sowing the wind.” “Reap the whirlwind.” “Here comes YOUR accountability.” My goodness. I came for a discussion about rifles and found myself in an opera. Will there be a final aria, or did you spend it all on “go fly a kite”? :ROFLMAO:
I also enjoyed your concern that I’m “playing referee” and “courting favors.” Then you mentioned your friendship with Red Leg, in a post addressed to me, so the whole forum could see how well-connected you are. Very subtle. I’m sure no one noticed.
Finally, you reminded me that getting the last word matters to me. And you’re right to worry. After all, it’s so rare to see someone post a closing line and then walk away without waiting for a reply.

Respectfully, in the way you asked, by exp
SStomcat
 
BTP-KennethWRoyce said:
Guys, I'm warning you: I am no longer reading this thread after its 63rd page!
Click to expand...
I’ll admit the frustration.This thread could have been a useful discussion about DG rifles. Instead, it became a referendum on who’s allowed to hold an opinion unchallenged.
 
SStomcat said:
I’ll admit the frustration.This thread could have been a useful discussion about DG rifles. Instead, it became a referendum on who’s allowed to hold an opinion unchallenged.
Click to expand...
Maybe it's time to move on? The DG rifle discussion had some good posts, but seem buried by now.
We're all feisty fellows, and we've had own turns.

The high point for me was Ontario Hunter being correct about the client Buzz. Such entertainment! :ROFLMAO:
Most of what followed was just sawing sawdust. Bon nuit!
 
BTP-KennethWRoyce said:
obsessive focus on Speed above most else,
Click to expand...
What is your view on: speed vs accuracy vs age of shooter, I am asking because that question reflects my own doubts

Speed vs accuracy - I noted "speedy Gonzaleses" miss very often.
Age: youngsters vs seniors: youngsters are faster, but miss often.

I am 55 years old, and I am slacking on speed.
And I am thinking, I am loosing competitivness, thus the question.

Mostly active in idpa and steel challenge, but philosophy is the same.
 
375Fox said:
Quite the dramatic change with a few hours. You are really a special kind of idiot.
Click to expand...
@375Fox, As you all know throwing insults is not how we go about having a discussion here, please refrain from name calling, you can get your message across without it. The use of offensive names and inflammatory language will not be tolerated. This is a friendly community based on mutual respect. Thank you.
 
BTP-KennethWRoyce said:
Glad to see you shoot a .40! Carry on; good shooting
Click to expand...
Well, I compete with a .40 but my CCW is a 9mm. Quite a difference in size though same manual of arms.

1792135923528.jpeg


IPSC and USPSA are NOT tactical training, neither is IDPA though they do try. In USPSA you also can never go so fast that misses don’t matter. If you look at scores of past US nationals champions you’ll notice they are also very accurate There is a reason secret service and alphabet agencies have hired USPSA grandmasters for pistol handling training where they have trained the instructors.
 
Tanks said:
Hmmm, in IPSC and its US equivalent USPSA .40 and 9mm are in different categories for the most part. I shoot limited in .40S&W with a 2011. Also, scoring is different in that a hit in the A zone is 5 points for Limited shooters and 4 points for production gun shooters (9 mm).

Recoil is actually less than 9mm due to heavier gun. Here is a video from a while back.

Click to expand...

Nice reload Tanks. You obviously like the STI platform. You don’t find the 2011 too thick with the double stack. Where do you carry the 2011? I’m considering a staccato for myself.
 
Altitude sickness said:
Nice reload Tanks. You obviously like the STI platform. You don’t find the 2011 too thick with the double stack. Where do you carry the 2011? I’m considering a staccato for myself.
Click to expand...
The competition gun is SVI Infinity, the CCW is either STI DVC Carry or Sig P365. I carry between 9 and 10 o’clock as a lefty. I carry the Sig when wearing a suit, my tailor accommodated for it.

1792159883668.jpeg
 
mark-hunter said:
What is your view on: speed vs accuracy vs age of shooter, I am asking because that question reflects my own doubts

Speed vs accuracy - I noted "speedy Gonzaleses" miss very often.
Age: youngsters vs seniors: youngsters are faster, but miss often.

I am 55 years old, and I am slacking on speed.
And I am thinking, I am loosing competitivness, thus the question.

Mostly active in idpa and steel challenge, but philosophy is the same.
Click to expand...
I shoot pistols for fun and my local gun club.
As to rifles-

I'm a few years older now, and speed is no longer my friend. My objective is to stay alert, remain calm, and move as quickly as my mind and body realistically allow.
I've long recognised that while I'm reasonably good at getting both barrels of my double on target, there's simply no way I can match my bolt-action 9.3×62 or .375 H&H for getting a third and fourth shot off in the same amount of time.
As the calibre and weight increase, reloading quickly, getting back on target, and delivering an accurate follow up shot become progressively more demanding. With the really big bores, that challenge only gets greater.
I'm realistic about my abilities and limitations. I'd rather work within them than convince myself I can do something that, in practice, may be beyond my capabilities. There's no shame in that; knowing your limitations is just as important as knowing your rifle.

At the end of the day, I'd rather be calm, composed, and effective with a rifle I can handle well than struggle to keep up with one that demands more than I can reliably deliver.
 
Speed is not always best.

For instance it’s argued that trying the Quick Draw McGraw from the holster when facing off against an aggressor isn’t always best.

Shootings are not normally two guys squared off on a dusty western street.

In most shootings, one person already has a weapon drawn and may even already be shooting.

For instance, if somebody’s got a weapon on you, you wouldn’t want to try and fast draw and shoot them.

You are better off, mumbling and acting like you’re overwhelmed as you slowly draw your pistol when telling him you’re getting your wallet.

 
Tanks said:
IPSC and USPSA are NOT tactical training, neither is IDPA though they do try. In USPSA you also can never go so fast that misses don’t matter. If you look at scores of past US nationals champions you’ll notice they are also very accurate There is a reason secret service and alphabet agencies have hired USPSA grandmasters for pistol handling training where they have trained the instructors.
Click to expand...
I understand the refinement in pistol craft since I started. The draw speed, front sight acquisition, pairs, and mag changes today are blisteringly fast compared to when I began learning in 1991. A respectable time on the El Presidente back then would be sneered at now.

I agree that "IPSC and USPSA are NOT tactical training" but what I lament is that sound tactical doctrine has been variously and unnecessarily ignored (especially during reloads) to create competition runs. I've run and helped devise competitions that didn't sacrifice anything tactical just to make it speedier, so I know it can be done.

I've gotten into this beef on other forums, and their common retort is that USPSA is just for fun and admittedly not realistic, though they won't necessarily fight that way in real life. Oh, but yes they will because of all the muscle memory programming they've made.

"Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect."
"Never practice a mistake."

I personally would never compete with anything other than my daily carry gun (.40 or 10mm). To me, USPSA race gun competition shooting has become more of a performative art. The IDPA was an admirable response to that.

IDPA.png


You compete with a .40 (cool), but why do you carry a 9mm as your primary? There are slim concealable choices in .40.
 
Altitude sickness said:
Speed is not always best.

For instance it’s argued that trying the Quick Draw McGraw from the holster when facing off against an aggressor isn’t always best.

Shootings are not normally two guys squared off on a dusty western street.

In most shootings, one person already has a weapon drawn and may even already be shooting.

For instance, if somebody’s got a weapon on you, you wouldn’t want to try and fast draw and shoot them.

You are better off, mumbling and acting like you’re overwhelmed as you slowly draw your pistol when telling him you’re getting your wallet.

Click to expand...
Yes, tactics are dictated by the reality of what's happening.
The more "tools" you have in your "toolbox", the more problems you can solve.
Always keep training, and vary your instructors.

Tom Cruise's speed rock pair and then Mozambique was really well done in Collateral,

...but what "Vincent" actually would have done is shoot them both in the back when he first saw them.

Quick Draw McGraw has its place, but so do many other ways to fight and win.
I liked the video you posted and its realistic scenario.
 
I rarely practice the draw anymore. Too many more critical steps to practice.

I just think the Hollywood stereotypical draw on bad guys is unrealistic.

The most common situation is to engage the aggressor that already has his weapon drawn.

I’m drawing my weapon while sitting in a back corner of a restaurant under the table. Not walking up and challenging the shooter to a quick draw contest.

I don’t even want him to know I exist. I would prefer to do a side brain, rear brain, two to the chest, or two to the back, who cares.

but I don’t even want him to know I’m there before the bullet arrives.

I’m not engaging then relying on my quick draw skills.
 
Let’s add some reality and better training than quick drawing on paper.

 
mark-hunter said:
What is your view on: speed vs accuracy vs age of shooter, I am asking because that question reflects my own doubts

Speed vs accuracy - I noted "speedy Gonzaleses" miss very often.
Age: youngsters vs seniors: youngsters are faster, but miss often.

I am 55 years old, and I am slacking on speed.
And I am thinking, I am loosing competitivness, thus the question.

Mostly active in idpa and steel challenge, but philosophy is the same.
Click to expand...
IDPA is great, keep it up! As far as what would remain respectable run times for you at 55 y/o, I can't quite say. Have your basics down, and practice often; speed will emerge from that. You're not likely to outdraw a dedicated 25 y/o IDPA guy, but that's OK. Truly, you merely have to outdraw your street assailant.

Although we all slow down with age (and I'm older than you), we can largely compensate for that on the street by staying very alert and aware, and trusting the gut when a situation doesn't feel right. Just leave; you don't have to know why it's not right. If you notice a Bad Guy before he notices you, you've already won. If you both notice each other simultaneously, then an armed well-trained/practiced Good Guy will likely win. Just don't get surprised by an Orc.

Finally, carry everywhere you go, even inside the home (if only a subcompact).
Choose a serious caliber, such as .40, 10mm, or a hot .45 P+.

"Green States are where I'd rather live!​
Pack a gun so you won't get the shiv!​
Scumbags headin' out so far and wide!​
Keep Manhattan, just gimme that old Slabside! "​
(Common Law Copyright 2025 by Kenneth W. Royce, All Rights Reserved.)​
​
Thanks for the question, best of success to you.​
 
These are the more realistic scenarios. Not two gunman drawing on each other in a western. And if you’re drawing on somebody that’s 30 feet away and shooting them you’re probably going to jail.

Unless that person is threatening or harming others and in that case you have all kinds of time to draw

 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Members online

... and 1020 more.
Total: 253,237 (members: 1,070, guests: 252,167)

Forum statistics

Threads
70,806
Messages
1,586,707
Members
173,699
Latest member
DongWinter
 

 

 

Proudly sponsored by

Latest posts

Latest profile posts

30-06Ken
30-06Ken wrote on Labman's profile.
Ill take the hydration pack you have posted.
•••
Boyd Brooks
Boyd Brooks wrote on Xpraetor's profile.
Thank you for the LIKE on my old post. It brought back memories as I lost her a year and a half ago, at 18+ years.
Boyd
•••
HENRY GRIFFITHS SAFARIS
HENRY GRIFFITHS SAFARIS
•••
Bushcat Safaris
Bushcat Safaris
Find refuge in the field and freedom under open skies
•••
cwpayton
cwpayton wrote on Garrett89's profile.
I recieved the 22 mag ammo today, thanks ,well done,
•••

Share this page

 
Top