Moving from lead to copper?

Fargo Boyle said:

Forgive my ignorance, however I’m interested to know how the dg calibres have faired with transition from lead to copper.

Has that been driven locally (Africa) or is this a domestic (USA / specific states etc) driver that has effectively reduced use / availability of lead bullets?

What I’m intrested to understand is if copper will replace lead entirely for dg cartridges?
What, if any, are the trade offs? Has there been a calibre that has reduced in popularity/ efficiency when having to change from lead to use copper?

I ask as in the uk we are following a (now paused) EU REACH requirement to limit almost all lead ammunition. This has resulted in one of our most popular calibres .243 win, nearly becoming illegal (in Scotland) for use on our larger deer species until a change to the minimum bullet weight in legislation was implemented , effectively enabling this cartridge to be deer leagal with light bullets- to accommodate a change to less dense copper.

Is there any examples of something similar to this experience with (marginal) dg cartridges in Africa countries - which effectively makes them non compliant due to the move to copper?

Thanks

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From my POV in most every instance when it comes to DG the all copper, and specifically, Barnes TSX is superior to lead bullets. It hits as hard yet travels further than a traditional lead bullet giving greater penetration. A recent PG example illustrates my point. My recent Kudu was a desperation running away shot that I placed in he spine on top of the hip. That 180g TTSX traveled all he way that big animal and came to rest in the neck. I've done similar with buffalo.
I now use TSX or TTSX in most every caliber I shoot. Two deer went down yesterday with the 70g TSX!

I would be astonished if any African country banned lead ammo without some major NGO manipulation because they flat out have more pressing matters to worry about.

I did recently switch to Barnes LRX-BT bullets in my .300win as I wanted a do all bullet capable of hunting from whitetail to moose with zero concern.

Their also AVAILABLE and reasonably priced.

As for the dangerous game I went with Woodleigh Hydros for my tuskless because of past experience with them in Australia.

Zimbabwe limits the calibres that can be used on DG by diameter and energy. So lighter bullets usually have a higher velocity and benefit from increased kinetic energy because velocity is squared in the energy formula . So no DG calibres will lose by a change to copper and there are no legal requirements for copper or lead. Just personal preference.

One calibre may actually benefit from copperbut I will have to look into it. The 9,3 x 62 may actually make the legal energy requiremnt with copper bullets.

matt85 said:

Mono-metal bullets have their advantages and disadvantages. I like them in larger calibers but do not entirely trust them in smaller calibers. I have yet to see a DG mono-metal expanding bullet that I truly believe to be superior to the Swift A-frame.

It also doesnt help that most of my hunting rifles are antiques designed/regulated for lead bullets. For example; my Sauer 16g/16g/8mm drilling has fixed sights set up for an 8mm (.318") 200gr round nose bullet at 2300fps. I have never been able to get any other bullet shape/weight to match the sights.

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I would suggest adding the CEB Safari Raptor in that smaller caliber tool box. Don’t save them for DG.

From @michael458 suggestion in giving the 100 grain FB Raptor a try in my wife’s .308

The 100 grain Raptor proved devastating on Impala and would say the Raptor can be sized correctly for most game animals.

By contrast we shot one of the 8 bait impala with a .375 H&H and the Barnes TSX. The ram ran the typical 120 ish yards.

6 Impala shot with the 100 grain Raptor were laying where they stood at the shot. The one Impala made it about 10 yds into the brush.

My understanding is that for best performance you need faster twists could be wrong

farmer_john said:

My understanding is that for best performance you need faster twists could be wrong

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With a brass or copper bullet of the same weight as a lead-copper bullet you will need a faster twist to stabilize it. Or just use a lighter weight copper or brass bullet.
You are seeing all the newer cartridge being marketed with faster twist rifling. I see in time all rifles changing to faster twist.

I'am having a 458 WM built it has a 1-10" no problem shooting brass or copper bullets.

Following with a lot of interest.

Especially as non-lead alternatives for (old) double rifles often come with their own problems.

Nhoro said:

Zimbabwe limits the calibres that can be used on DG by diameter and energy. So lighter bullets usually have a higher velocity and benefit from increased kinetic energy because velocity is squared in the energy formula . So no DG calibres will lose by a change to copper and there are no legal requirements for copper or lead. Just personal preference.

One calibre may actually benefit from copperbut I will have to look into it. The 9,3 x 62 may actually make the legal energy requiremnt with copper bullets.

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Thanks very interesting to read of this.

Doug3006 said:

I know that there is no ban on lead bullets in South Africa, Namibia, Zimbabwe or Zambia. I believe the same holds true among the rest of the major safari countries. That said, I’ve used all copper bullets on Cape buffalo to great effect.

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Ok so we have just wrapped up a 2 day workshop on this issue with 5 lower SADC states.
Birdlife International is pushing for a ban on Lead bullets in Africa as they argue it is killing the Vultures. Long story short and after much back and forth SADC has declared that it cannot ban lead bullets but rather that all member states should work towards a phasing out of Lead and promote the copper and brass alternatives. Personally I use both since I have rifles that can’t shoot copper.
For example I use a 600 grain monometal Dzombo in my Heym 505 Gibbs but stick to the 525 grain FMJ solid in my original Gibbs.
Where meat is going to be consumed by the community I would ask that the client choose a non lead option if possible.
Namibia is aiming to phase out lead bullets by 2032. As Botswana we will encourage our operators to replace lead where practical but to always keep the client, staff and others safe by using the correct equipment for the job at hand.

Altitude sickness said:

I would suggest adding the CEB Safari Raptor in that smaller caliber tool box.

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Ive never liked the idea of bullets that are designed to break apart. Im old fashion i guess.

matt85 said:

Ive never liked the idea of bullets that are designed to break apart. Im old fashion i guess.

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For the most part, I’d say the CEB Raptor is an exception to the rule of fragmenting bullets. The front petals are peeling away from the tip while the shank continues to penetrate.

Unlike a varmint bullet that fragments into thousands of little pieces dumping all the energy just after impact. Or Lord forbid we start talking about the Nosler Partition. RIP Bruce Moulds.

BeeMaa said:

For the most part, I’d say the CEB Raptor is an exception to the rule of fragmenting bullets. The front petals are peeling away from the tip while the shank continues to penetrate.

Unlike a varmint bullet that fragments into thousands of little pieces dumping all the energy just after impact. Or Lord forbid we start talking about the Nosler Partition. RIP Bruce Moulds.

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I do not use Nosler Partitions for the same reason I don't use CEB Raptors, G2 R.I.P.'s, or any other bullet along those lines. I want expansion and weight retention.

Sometimes I use basic "cup and core" bullets, but only when that is the only available option. If a bonded bullet is available I will always choose that first. When I use "cup and core" bullets I almost always choose a "heavy for caliber" bullet at moderate to slow speeds for maximum weight retention.

matt85 said:

I do not use Nosler Partitions for the same reason I don't use CEB Raptors, G2 R.I.P.'s, or any other bullet along those lines. I want expansion and weight retention.

Sometimes I use basic "cup and core" bullets, but only when that is the only available option. If a bonded bullet is available I will always choose that first. When I use "cup and core" bullets I almost always choose a "heavy for caliber" bullet at moderate to slow speeds for maximum weight retention.

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Partitions aren’t especially noted for coming apart. Nosler Ballistic Tips are another story.

Doug3006 said:

Partitions aren’t especially noted for coming apart. Nosler Ballistic Tips are another story.

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They tend to lose a large part or even all of the front core. I prefer a Swift A-frame bullet or maybe a North Fork soft point. I do like Nosler Accubond's or Woodleigh's soft points for softer targets, they seem to work great as long as they aren't pushed too fast.

matt85 said:

They tend to lose a large part or even all of the front core. I prefer a Swift A-frame bullet or maybe a North Fork soft point. I do like Nosler Accubond's or Woodleigh's soft points for softer targets, they seem to work great as long as they aren't pushed too fast.

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That’s true. They do shed more weight than some premium options. But that’s not such a bad thing on most game we take. I’ve taken plains game up to and including Eland with Partitions and have never had a bad outcome.

coyote wacker said:

With a brass or copper bullet of the same weight as a lead-copper bullet you will need a faster twist to stabilize it. Or just use a lighter weight copper or brass bullet.
You are seeing all the newer cartridge being marketed with faster twist rifling. I see in time all rifles changing to faster twist.

I'am having a 458 WM built it has a 1-10" no problem shooting brass or copper bullets.

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This depends on the shape of the bullet as well. A bullet with a round or flat nose shape and flat base will be shorter than a highly aerodynamic spitzer with boattail assuming the weight is the same. It is bullet length that determines stability and the required twist rate to stabilise

Doug3006 said:

That’s true. They do shed more weight than some premium options. But that’s not such a bad thing on most game we take. I’ve taken plains game up to and including Eland with Partitions and have never had a bad outcome.

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I guess my big question is, why use them? What measurable way does it out perform other premium bullets?

There are more modern bullets that retain their weight better. Bullets like the Swift A-frame are just an improved version of the Partition. Then there is the North Fork soft point bullet and the Federal Trophy Bonded bullet which blend bonded lead tech with mono-metal tech.

The only reason I could see for using the Partition is because you started using it before better bullets became available and you don't feel the need to change. That is a fine reason to use them, but that isn't going to convince me to start using them.

I took 200gr partitions to Zimbabwe for my .300Win that were leftover from a 2017 Moose hunt and they resulted in bang flops for an Impala & Bushbuck.

Having said that I just worked up 200gr Barns LRX-BT loads as my new travel do all…. LRX because they will open fast and violent up close and expand at distance.

For most deer hunting I use 180gr BTSP Interlock, I match bullet to animal.

@matt85 - Like others have mentioned, it’s about matching the bullet to the intended game animal.

If I were going on a leopard hunt and using my 375H&H that shoots Barnes 300 grain TSX best, I would still take them. But I would also test 300 grain Norma Oryx and the Nosler Partition for accuracy at the expected shot distance. If they could maintain tight groups, I’d probably take them for leopard and still use the TSX for everything else.

Call it horses for courses. But in general, I prefer a mono-metal copper bullet.

I see a lot of confusion in this thread. Lets try and define what is meant by Mono Metal bullets. The beginning question is would copper replace traditional lead core bullet..... this leaves a lot of room to dive off in other directions, and now we see a lot of talk about the CEB Raptors included.......

To Simplify some statements........
1. All the Barnes TSX and other variants are indeed copper bullets, or copper alloy of whatever mix. They all operate for the most part similar to any premium lead core bonded bullet, they expand, most of the time not quite as large as conventional lead core bonded like Swift or Woodleigh or what have you, and for the most part because of that they tend to penetrate deeper than as well.

2. Generation 1 Copper CNC bullets. Such as Hammer, CEB Maximus and some from Lehigh as well. These bullets shear "Petals" off the main bullet along the wound channel. They do not shear all at the same time, but along the path during terminals. The remaining bullet continues to penetrate much like a solid once the petals have sheared. Penetration is always far deeper than any conventional expanding bullet along with trauma inflicted is far more than any of the conventionals, these bullets are extreme and create massive trauma.

3. Generation II Brass and even Copper Raptors. These operate in a different manner than Gen 1 Copper, and certainly different than conventional expanding premiums. Mostly brass, which is more brittle than copper. However, Copper can be manipulated to react in exactly the same way, see various copper Raptors. What happens with these bullets once terminals begin at 1.5-2 inches of penetration in any aqueous medium, and animal tissue, all the "Blades" (these are NOT petals, they are blades) shear at the same time, at point of shear it is similar to a small explosive action causing massive trauma at that point, these blades travel close to the center bullet, which is a full caliber broken sharp edged solid that continues to penetrate, as the center bullet passes through tissue, this tissue expands, and is sliced and diced to pieces by the blades following close to center. Depending on the caliber and the size of the blades, they begin to move away from center after about 4-6 inches of penetration after shear point. As they move away, they become secondary projectiles on their own after than, and slice/dice organs, blood vessels and anything else they come in contact with. Standard larger bore Raptors have 6 blades. The remaining Center bullet continues to penetrate like a full caliber flat nose solid, most exit broadside depending on caliber and animal. Raptors produce extreme massive trauma, loss of blood, destruction of organs, and the center full caliber solid is more than capable of busting through heavy bone. These are the most destructive bullet you will ever use. But, you have to have seen them for yourself to understand just what they are all about.

I have done so, I have shot a lot of animals with conventional bullets from Swift, Woodleigh, Hornady, Nosler, and Barnes, and a lot with 1st Gen Copper bullets, and even more now with Raptors. I have seen all work in animal tissue from impala to buffalo many times. 1st Gen Copper and 2cd Gen Raptors are by FAR the most wicked bullets you can ever take to the field.

Altitude sickness said:

6 Impala shot with the 100 grain Raptor were laying where they stood at the shot. The one Impala made it about 10 yds into the brush.

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Jay mentioned this CEB 100 Flat Base Raptor in .308 caliber. Fact is, I have been busy loading these in 300 BLK the last week or two, So far about 2000 pieces and counting more even today. I do not hunt deer, never have. But I have been loading this bullet for a few friends now since it was designed, and here in SC the season is long, and one can take multiple deer each year. Most of my guys hunt with 308 WInchester and between the group they have taken at a minimum of 150 deer, and probably far closer to 200 over the years with these bullets. Not one time have they ever brought a recovered bullet back. And only one report of a deer that was not DRT on the spot where they stood. One friend said a big buck took 5 steps and keeled over. I had great confidence that Jay was going to be successful as well with the 100 FB Raptor. I load it also in 308 Winchester, 300 BLK, 7.62X40, 30/30 without the tips of course, and even 300 Winchester.

Anything that I would ever do with any .308 caliber cartridge can be done with the 100 FB Raptor. We are serious about having it on hand for our own personal requirements. Those are 1/2 gallon containers. I purchase bulk with these sorts of things.



I don't shoot anything between 223 Remington and 308 Winchester. For .224 there is nothing more destructive and effective, trauma and penetration than the 50 Raptor, perhaps the 55 Raptor....
I keep large numbers of the 50 Raptor on hand as well, along with loaded ammo.



Believe me, if I did not know what these were all about, I would not spend the money, I might be many things, foolish is not one of them. I know what these are capable of.

I have shot a lot of buffalo, cape buffalo and Aussie buff. I have used mostly Swift and Woodleigh in the early days, later moving to 1st Generation Copper Lehighs, and last, 2cd Generation Raptors. I stopped looking for the most effective bullet after the Raptor, there was no need to search further.
We have tested about every bullet you can imagine here in our endeavor to seek knowledge. I give you some sample tests in .458 caliber............Something "measurable" one might say.

















And now an example of 1st Generation Copper Bullet, the 400 gr Hammer...............





And now the 2cd Generation Raptors...........





This witness card is 4 inches inside the test medium. You can see the Blades dispersed around the center bullet.............



Even a lowly light weight 300 gr Raptor can equal penetration of most 450-500 gr conventional expanding bullets, all the while inflicting more trauma and destruction of tissue.



This answers the BIG QUESTION For me..... Why Use a Raptor? More of everything, more trauma inflicted, more tissue destruction, more blood loss, more bone crunching power, more penetration, and just plain more.

You don't need to "retain" weight to gain penetration. Heard of Sectional Density? I am not a big SD fan by any stretch, but what you see with expanding and trauma inflicting bullets is Terminal Sectional Density taking place. The SD before terminals is completely moot, and of zero importance, however, once Terminal penetration begins, you can look at Terminal Sectional Density to provide some answers.

The 500 gr Swift A Frame that I recovered from a buffalo show above has a Terminal Sectional Density of .104

500 Woodleigh recovered from buffalo shown above has a Terminal Sectional Density of .087

420 Gr CEB Raptor has a Terminal Sectional Density of .221

This is not only repeatable, time after time after time, it is very "measurable".....................