So I was just looking at a double rifle for sale (in a caliber like 375 H&H, 458 Win Mag, or 416 Rigby, just for the sake of this discussion).

teklanika_ray

AH enthusiast
Joined
Aug 25, 2024
Messages
408
Reaction score
613
Location
Alaska
Media
7
Member of
life time NRA member, Life Time Alaska Trappers Association Member
I understand the benefit of the double rifle is the immediate follow up shots. As I see it, that is even more important with a more severe recoiling caliber (600 NE or 700 NE). However, I do not find the 375 H&H, 458 Win Mag, or 416 Rigby to be stunning recoiling calibers and recovery time is pretty quick. Is it nostalgia, as suggested by Kevin Thomas (Theres Something About Buffalo) that attracts hunters to their rifles or is there more to them. I just found that theory resonated with me when I read it, and I wondered why people spend the additional money on the double rifle, but then chose a (what I consider a bolt action caliber)?

Ray H
 
Mostly because they don’t reload and ammo is significantly cheaper.
Man, that is exactly why I have my 505 gibbs, 550 magnum, 470 capstick. I absolutely love reliading for them.

Ray H
 
My understanding is for a few decades ammunition was hard to come by for traditional double cartridges, so manufacturers built more rifles in rimless chamberings typically associated with bolt guns. Since then, the ammunition availability has improved. These days doubles chambered in rimless cartridges are less desirable, and can be obtained for less money.
 
I think I understand your question. I don’t think you were just referring to doubles chambered for rimless cartridges like the 375 H&H, 416 Rigby and 458 Win Mag. I think you were pondering why a double chambered in 416 or 458 power level. Here is my belief:

Pre war: there we’re relatively very few bolt action rifles made in 500 Jeffery and 505 Gibbs which are true stopping cartridges. Not very many pre war 416 Rigby rifles made either. The most common pre war DG bolt action rifles were 404 Jeffery and 375 H&H.

There were far more double rifles overall chambered in 450 Nitro Express, 470 Nitro Express, 500/465. Nitro Express, 476 Nitro Express, 475 & 475 #2 Nitro Express and the 500 Nitro Express than bolt rifles in 500 Jeffery and 505 Gibbs.

So these above doubles would have a decided advantage over the 404 Jeffery and 375 H&H for close range DG hunting and as stopping rifles during the pre war era.

I think in modern post war times, hunters just enjoy hunting with double rifles primarily for nostalgia and a few PH’s who can afford them use them as DG backup rifles in 470 or 500.
 
I have thought about the doubles a long time. A buddy of mine in the 90's was byting them left and right.
I think I understand your question. I don’t think you were just referring to doubles chambered for rimless cartridges like the 375 H&H, 416 Rigby and 458 Win Mag. I think you were pondering why a double chambered in 416 or 458 power level. Here is my belief:

Pre war: there we’re relatively very few bolt action rifles made in 500 Jeffery and 505 Gibbs which are true stopping cartridges. Not very many pre war 416 Rigby rifles made either. The most common pre war DG bolt action rifles were 404 Jeffery and 375 H&H.

There were far more double rifles overall chambered in 450 Nitro Express, 470 Nitro Express, 500/465. Nitro Express, 476 Nitro Express, 475 & 475 #2 Nitro Express and the 500 Nitro Express than bolt rifles in 500 Jeffery and 505 Gibbs.

So these above doubles would have a decided advantage over the 404 Jeffery and 375 H&H for close range DG hunting and as stopping rifles during the pre war era.

I think in modern post war times, hunters just enjoy hunting with double rifles primarily for nostalgia and a few PH’s who can afford them use them as DG backup rifles in 470 or 500.
 
My understanding is for a few decades ammunition was hard to come by for traditional double cartridges, so manufacturers built more rifles in rimless chamberings typically associated with bolt guns. Since then, the ammunition availability has improved. These days doubles chambered in rimless cartridges are less desirable, and can be obtained for less money.

100% correct! My Heym 88B was made in 1986 in .458 Win. The .470 Nitro and other low pressure cartridges had been out of production since the British firm Kynoch ceased their production between 1960 and 1970. Federal re-introduced the .470 NE ammunition in 1989 and the .416 Rigby in 1991 with the Ruger Safari Magnum (RSM).

My .458 Win develops over 60,000 psi chamber pressure as compared to a typical .470 NE load of around 40,000 psi. The higher pressure of modern rimless cartridges creates higher “bolt thrust” where the cartridge head is rammed against the standing breach of the action and the barrels are simultaneously being pushed away. The higher pressure cartridges will certainly cause a break action rifle to loosen its action faster, perhaps much faster depending on the quality of the rifle and steel used, than the same make, model, and action size than a low pressure NE cartridge.

Modern doubles are offered in .375 H&H perhaps for convenience and familiarity of cartridge to many shooters. The .375 H&H with the same size/area of cartridge case head and less mass/energy being pushed through the barrels will resist action loosening more so than a .458 Win. That stated, without doing the math it is logical to think a high pressure .375 H&H will over many thousands of shots, cause an action to loosen much faster than a 450/400 NE.

What about a modern double chambered in .416 Rigby? The SAAMI PMAX or maximum operating chamber pressure for this round of 1912 vintage is slightly above 47,000 PSI. The PMAX of the .458 Win is 62,000 PSI. The pressure maximum of the .416 Rigby is 24% lower than the .458! Certainly, this in a god thing for a double rifle.

What about extraction of a rimless case? There’s the little problem. Spring loaded pawls or detents/fingers are pushed out into the extraction grove on a rimless case. When loading a rimmed cartridge double rifle in the heat of the moment, one only has to drop cartridges into the chambers. Rimmed cartridges must be pushed until the pawl snaps into place. In olden days’ ivory hunters with extraction only rifles could empty spent cartridge cases by turning the rifle upside down. This process made little sound compared to the metallic twang of ejectors shooting empty cases out of the rifle. Which could an angry elephant more easily locate the bearing of the threat?

Could ejection pawls fail? Of course as with any mechanical device. My old Heym as two pawls per extractor. I asked JJ Perodeau if the springs in my Heym’s pawls after 40 years should be replaced. JJ thought that was not necessary bases on his extensive experience.

If the cost is the same, for sure chose a double in a NE cartridge. While less powerful than a .416 Rigby, the 450/400 has an excellent reputation from John Taylor to present hunters. The 500/416 NE provides ballistics designed to match the original loading of the .416 Rigby of around 2325 fps for a 400 or 410 grain bullet. The choice is yours...
 
Yes,
100% correct! My Heym 88B was made in 1986 in .458 Win. The .470 Nitro and other low pressure cartridges had been out of production since the British firm Kynoch ceased their production between 1960 and 1970. Federal re-introduced the .470 NE ammunition in 1989 and the .416 Rigby in 1991 with the Ruger Safari Magnum (RSM).

My .458 Win develops over 60,000 psi chamber pressure as compared to a typical .470 NE load of around 40,000 psi. The higher pressure of modern rimless cartridges creates higher “bolt thrust” where the cartridge head is rammed against the standing breach of the action and the barrels are simultaneously being pushed away. The higher pressure cartridges will certainly cause a break action rifle to loosen its action faster, perhaps much faster depending on the quality of the rifle and steel used, than the same make, model, and action size than a low pressure NE cartridge.

Modern doubles are offered in .375 H&H perhaps for convenience and familiarity of cartridge to many shooters. The .375 H&H with the same size/area of cartridge case head and less mass/energy being pushed through the barrels will resist action loosening more so than a .458 Win. That stated, without doing the math it is logical to think a high pressure .375 H&H will over many thousands of shots, cause an action to loosen much faster than a 450/400 NE.

What about a modern double chambered in .416 Rigby? The SAAMI PMAX or maximum operating chamber pressure for this round of 1912 vintage is slightly above 47,000 PSI. The PMAX of the .458 Win is 62,000 PSI. The pressure maximum of the .416 Rigby is 24% lower than the .458! Certainly, this in a god thing for a double rifle.

What about extraction of a rimless case? There’s the little problem. Spring loaded pawls or detents/fingers are pushed out into the extraction grove on a rimless case. When loading a rimmed cartridge double rifle in the heat of the moment, one only has to drop cartridges into the chambers. Rimmed cartridges must be pushed until the pawl snaps into place. In olden days’ ivory hunters with extraction only rifles could empty spent cartridge cases by turning the rifle upside down. This process made little sound compared to the metallic twang of ejectors shooting empty cases out of the rifle. Which could an angry elephant more easily locate the bearing of the threat?

Could ejection pawls fail? Of course as with any mechanical device. My old Heym as two pawls per extractor. I asked JJ Perodeau if the springs in my Heym’s pawls after 40 years should be replaced. JJ thought that was not necessary bases on his extensive experience.

If the cost is the same, for sure chose a double in a NE cartridge. While less powerful than a .416 Rigby, the 450/400 has an excellent reputation from John Taylor to present hunters. The 500/416 NE provides ballistics designed to match the original loading of the .416 Rigby of around 2325 fps for a 400 or 410 grain bullet. The choice is yours...
Now that is an answer, awesome analysis Mark. One follow up, do you personally use the double rifle because you feel it necessary do reduce your recovery time between shots or is it more of a nostalgia thing.

Ray H
 
Yes,

Now that is an answer, awesome analysis Mark. One follow up, do you personally use the double rifle because you feel it necessary do reduce your recovery time between shots or is it more of a nostalgia thing.

Ray H

Darn good question Ray. When I bought my Heym five years ago it was part nostalgia, part insurance against getting elephant stomped, and part or mostly because I am a first class gun nut since I was 11 years old! I have owned six double rifles at once but having matured and am down to only two.

I am starting to reconsider the advantages of a double vs a fast handling, LPVO scoped bolt action rifle for elephant. I can work a bolt pretty darn fast and will never ever be able to deliver four rounds from a double as fast as I can accurately shoot five or six from a bolt rifle. I am not that coordinated or at my age, as nimble in my fingers as I once was.

Note: For the "post snipers", yes I know how to shoot a rifle and shot placement is key! Did you ever hear of the Fog of War? If you don't know what that is I think you've never been there... Dangerous game is after all, dangerous.

This was the first I had shot the rifle in the video. It's me in the Super Mark camouflage USMC utility blouse.

Does anyone need a double? Maybe, maybe not. They are great for a PH and excellent for client hunters. My Heym over many miles of walking carries easier than do bolt action rifles. A lot of the difference is the scope and bolt handle, but then that's me.

If a hunter has $10,000 for a fine rifle, find a Dakota. They are a great value. At $15,000 to $20,000, find a good condition Heym double or new or almost new Heym Martini Express, Park West, or Rigby bolt rifle. The new Mausers share the actions with the Ribgy's and are a little less money but also have less in finishing.

If a hunter has unlimited funds, well so far in life that hasn't been me... :)
 
Last edited:
Another advantage of a quality double is the RELIABILITY of a follow up shot. Setting speed aside, the most reliable bolt action ever designed is still subject to operator error when shit hits the fan, not to mention the rare mechanical failure. A double with two triggers is essentially two rifles in one, two completely separate firing mechanisms, two primers, two cartridges. At bad breath distances some find comfort in the fact that a second try is just a trigger pull away. Where a bolt rifle could have an extractor fail, firing pin break, overpressure round stuck in chamber, bad primer, squib load, operator error, etc, a double rifle offers a much more sure second shot. The tradeoff of course is only having two shots before reloading, though skilled operators can accomplish this quickly.

So in the example of a 375/416/458 double rifle-vs-bolt action, reliability of a second shot is more of an advantage in my eyes than speed of a second shot. 416 Rigby is also a much more common cartridge to find in the bush (or anywhere) than the 500/.416 express. So that would be another advantage if one had to have a .416 double rifle.
 
You ask a question each person who contemplates a double have. @Mark A Ouellette answered your technical question and the emotional one in his decision process.

For me I have shot bolt guns from 22 LR to 505gibbs. And have enjoyed them all. And own a number of DG capable bolt and single shots. Howerever the first time I dropped the hammer in a right left sequence on a merkel 500n NE something just clicked and I was smiling like a 5 year old at Christmas. I told my friend with the 500 that those two shot were going to cost me a lot of $$$$$.

All my DG (except leopard) have been taken with a double. I have taken the time and expense to learn how to shoot a double well. Doubles are my favorite style rifle, followed by single shot, then bolt. I have hunted with all three platforms. I know each,s strengths and weaknesses. I try and match their capabilities and mine to the animal to be hunted. And make wise decisions. With a double there are shots I have to pass on that would be a chip shot with a scoped single or bolt.

The choice is one that each person will have to make for themselves. But 96% of folks should stay with a bolt gun!.

My .02 worth
 

Forum statistics

Threads
70,545
Messages
1,579,351
Members
171,604
Latest member
DavidBurns
 

 

 

Latest profile posts

Soon to be chasing dove and quail in AZ.
Hornedfrogbbq wrote on Rhoyland4's profile.
Do you mind me asking what auction you are referencing? I'm not in the market for any of those rifles...just curious.

Frosty in Fort Worth
Getting some culling done!

K_P wrote on Buckleyguy12's profile.
Good morning from Montana.

I'm looking at a post from 2018 where you were looking for a lefty Winchester in .375 H&H Magnum. I'm selling mine. My email is [redacted] in the event that you're still searching for a unicorn.

Best,

Kelly Palmer
Gents, if you book and pay your deposit before the end of this year , you can have the bigger cull package for the 2026 price! https://www.africahunting.com/threa...griffiths-safaris-starting-at-us-2-560.96285/
 
Top