The Cannon Myth: Why I'd Rather Hit Than Bruise

Pondoro said:
There is a difference between the .375 and the .470..
Click to expand...
There is a considerable difference between the 375 and 416, never mind the 470.
 
A late Norwegian travelling adventurer called the .375 like a 6,5 up here people down there say about .375 . When he came to go to areas he knew would be lot unexpected things to go on, he chose the .470 for that . And buffalo in swamp mix areas was definitely that .

Recoilwise .375 was softer than a .35/68S I once shot .

But it depend on stocking of the rifle , weight of the weapon also . And knowledge of the forces
 
mark-hunter said:
The breakdown summary is good. One point is missing only.
The attitude of hunter. And I think it plays a big role

If first shot by client is not effective at first sight and does not bring the animal instantly, then there are two types of clients, and two back up shots options:

1) The first type of client will instruct the PH to immediately fire second back up shot, if he thinks is necessary. PH cleared for back up shot

2) The second type of client will instruct the PH and insist to make second shot by himself, and PH not to interfere unless there is an animal charge situation. PH not cleared for back up shot.

Before the choice of caliber, this makes the first decision of client, and that has to be agreed with PH before the hunt.

Which type of client in those two scenarios is more likely to loose the animal?
Hmm... ?

:unsure:
Click to expand...
Interesting. I don't believe I've ever had any discussion with my PH about him cleaning up a mess after me. Perhaps he knows I've been at this long enough to prioritize ending animals' suffering over my vanity. He also knows I can shoot. On the second day of our first safari he saw me take out a gemsbuck in self defense at very close quarters with two shots in rapid succession both in the heart. He did clean up my impala this last safari. I swapped guns with him for a long shot using his 300 WM. It was at the outer limits for my 30-06. Unknown to me his CZ has a terrible trigger (his former backup 270 WSM had a nice light trigger). I struggled too much and hit the ram low. It ran off but couldn't stay with the herd so had gone down. We spread out to find it. PH pushed it up out of bed and it started to take off again so he shot it. Before he could say anything I said "Good. Glad it's down." The ram was bleeding profusely and surprised it had enough gas to get up. Would not have gone far but we didn't know that. Anyway, he trusts me to make a good shot (usually) and I trust him to know when a followup shot is necessary and when it's not. We are a good match. We have taken three buffalo together and none were dropped on the spot. One ran maybe 150 yards before stopping to face us. I shot him again but first shot had killed him. He just didn't know it yet. The other two ran maybe thirty yards before tipping over. PH never shouldered his Lott.
 
"Someone is probably going to say 'what if we’re out hunting buffalo and find ourselves in an unprovoked charge by an elephant the PH gun jams…'. Okay…."

And a meteor could fall on us. :D
 
Ontario Hunter said:
"Someone is probably going to say 'what if we’re out hunting buffalo and find ourselves in an unprovoked charge by an elephant the PH gun jams…'. Okay…."

And a meteor could fall on us. :D
Click to expand...
Cow buffalo, 40 yards or so, experimental .500 caliber bullet, and there was brush in the path. Told PH, no shot, there is too much brush! PH says, shoot, that bullet will bust through! I said No, too much brush! PH Said Shoot! OK Big Dog, lets dance. I shoot, buffalo ends up mixing with herd, can't find blood trail, herd runs off....... tracking no blood, getting zero dark thirty, have to call it off for the night, plan come back at first light and go to work!

Next morning, on the scene at break of day. PH decides we split up, I go in the way the herd ran with tracker, PH goes off along the sides where herd went.............. A few minutes go by, I heard PH shoot...... not far, I take off towards the shot running............ Get on the scene, PH is fumbling with a jammed up POS CZ 375, buffalo walking to us, PH hit buffalo in the nose, 375, no effect, now coming, I throw up the 50 B&M and hit her square in the chest twice, down, game over.........

The first bullet fired the day before, had indeed hit brush, turned sideways, hit far far back, clipping the rear of one lung. I told him not to shoot through the damn brush! 375 hit in the nose, zero effect, and then the POS gun jammed up tight for the duration of the fight. Good thing I was not too far away and could contribute to the battle. Buffalo was very sick, and not up for a running charge, was a good thing, because I would not have made it to the scene in time if it were running.

Lessons Learned? None! You would think that one would learn, PH ain't always 100% right! But no, one is drilled, always Listen to the PH! And I was always drilled! I have had several scenarios over the years that I SHOULD NOT have listened to the PH, I knew Better, even voiced that and shit, did it anyway! And yes on each occasion that I told the PH NO SHOT........ and He Insisted SHOOT... I did, and then we had a problem because of it! But we were always lucky and able to sort it out!

Now I have done my dead level best to avoid this thread, but thought this was a decent story, given what Ontario stated above.......and the jam. But what I keep seeing is about this cartridge, that cartridge, and what what what....... But I have seen nothing about What Bullet? Yes, I am a larger bore fan..... 458--.500--.510............. I have absolutely zero use for a POS 375 anything, useless rat caliber when it comes to serious work. Good Girly cartridge for the ladies that can't handle more recoil. And that includes little Girly Men too..........In fact, I won't even allow one to be around me, they make me sickly and want to PUKE at the mention and sight of 375. I utterly despise that caliber. But I dare say, my PH above was using a Round Nose FMJ something or other..... zero effect on that cow buffalo! Nothing! Right in the middle of the nose, nothing. I believe that had that been something else, such as a proper designed Flat Nose Solid, there might have been more effect! Anything but a useless RN 375 would have been better. If I recall correctly on this trip, I was also shooting a 510 gr big ass Flat Nose .500 caliber solid at 2150 fps in the 50 B&M, chest shot folded that cow on the spot, it hit hard and exited out the rear.......... At least one of them did, I did not see the other. There was very noticeable effect from the .500s.

However back to the issue of he bullet, I have seen and heard of buffalo shot with 500 NE with For Crap Bullets, and no effect either, crap results! The Bullet Does ALL The Heavy Lifting, regardless of caliber, use crap bullets no matter how big the caliber and you will get crap results! Use a proper designed bullet even in big bore calibers, and you will get big bore results!

Instead of a great lengthy, basically USELESS debate about this caliber is better than that caliber and blah blah blah all day long for weeks, one should be asking and debating, WHAT BULLET will accomplish the Mission ahead of me with the utmost effect for my requirements, within the caliber/cartridge/rifle I intend to use!

THE END
 
michael458 said:
Cow buffalo, 40 yards or so, experimental .500 caliber bullet, and there was brush in the path. Told PH, no shot, there is too much brush! PH says, shoot, that bullet will bust through! I said No, too much brush! PH Said Shoot! OK Big Dog, lets dance. I shoot, buffalo ends up mixing with herd, can't find blood trail, herd runs off....... tracking no blood, getting zero dark thirty, have to call it off for the night, plan come back at first light and go to work!

Next morning, on the scene at break of day. PH decides we split up, I go in the way the herd ran with tracker, PH goes off along the sides where herd went.............. A few minutes go by, I heard PH shoot...... not far, I take off towards the shot running............ Get on the scene, PH is fumbling with a jammed up POS CZ 375, buffalo walking to us, PH hit buffalo in the nose, 375, no effect, now coming, I throw up the 50 B&M and hit her square in the chest twice, down, game over.........

The first bullet fired the day before, had indeed hit brush, turned sideways, hit far far back, clipping the rear of one lung. I told him not to shoot through the damn brush! 375 hit in the nose, zero effect, and then the POS gun jammed up tight for the duration of the fight. Good thing I was not too far away and could contribute to the battle. Buffalo was very sick, and not up for a running charge, was a good thing, because I would not have made it to the scene in time if it were running.

Lessons Learned? None! You would think that one would learn, PH ain't always 100% right! But no, one is drilled, always Listen to the PH! And I was always drilled! I have had several scenarios over the years that I SHOULD NOT have listened to the PH, I knew Better, even voiced that and shit, did it anyway! And yes on each occasion that I told the PH NO SHOT........ and He Insisted SHOOT... I did, and then we had a problem because of it! But we were always lucky and able to sort it out!

Now I have done my dead level best to avoid this thread, but thought this was a decent story, given what Ontario stated above.......and the jam. But what I keep seeing is about this cartridge, that cartridge, and what what what....... But I have seen nothing about What Bullet? Yes, I am a larger bore fan..... 458--.500--.510............. I have absolutely zero use for a POS 375 anything, useless rat caliber when it comes to serious work. Good Girly cartridge for the ladies that can't handle more recoil. And that includes little Girly Men too..........In fact, I won't even allow one to be around me, they make me sickly and want to PUKE at the mention and sight of 375. I utterly despise that caliber. But I dare say, my PH above was using a Round Nose FMJ something or other..... zero effect on that cow buffalo! Nothing! Right in the middle of the nose, nothing. I believe that had that been something else, such as a proper designed Flat Nose Solid, there might have been more effect! Anything but a useless RN 375 would have been better. If I recall correctly on this trip, I was also shooting a 510 gr big ass Flat Nose .500 caliber solid at 2150 fps in the 50 B&M, chest shot folded that cow on the spot, it hit hard and exited out the rear.......... At least one of them did, I did not see the other. There was very noticeable effect from the .500s.

However back to the issue of he bullet, I have seen and heard of buffalo shot with 500 NE with For Crap Bullets, and no effect either, crap results! The Bullet Does ALL The Heavy Lifting, regardless of caliber, use crap bullets no matter how big the caliber and you will get crap results! Use a proper designed bullet even in big bore calibers, and you will get big bore results!

Instead of a great lengthy, basically USELESS debate about this caliber is better than that caliber and blah blah blah all day long for weeks, one should be asking and debating, WHAT BULLET will accomplish the Mission ahead of me with the utmost effect for my requirements, within the caliber/cartridge/rifle I intend to use!

THE END
Click to expand...
Good point. I shot my first two buffalo with my PH's "girly" 375 and, believe it or not, 250 gr Barnes TSX. First was front on shot through the heart at 110 meters. It ran less than thirty yards before falling over. Second one I shot on the run just behind the right shoulder (quartering away slightly). Took out both lungs and a bunch of major blood vessels above the heart. I did shoot him again in the chest facing us about 150 yards later but he was done. Third buffalo is a great example of how much my PH and I are on the same page. A herd was milling around just across the river. Wind and noise from rushing water were both in our favor. There were maybe thirty from 100-175 meters. PH picked out an old gray cow to cull but she stayed glued too close to the bull for a shot. Then the two disappeared behind brush and didn't come out. Animals were bedding down. Glen spotted another culling candidate laying in a small opening and set up the sticks. "She's there laying in the shade." I turn my 404's scope up to max 4x but I all I see is a cow with two calves laying just ahead of her nose. "She's got calves." "No, the one laying in the shade!" Well, this one is partly in the shade. "Glen, I only see a cow with calf. I'm not going to shoot " "Okay, that's not the one. Keep your eye on her though." And after about a minute I see the tail of another one in the shadow swat at flies. Then I see a horn move. "I'll have to shoot over the one with calves." "I think you can do it." "Yes." Boom! Up she jumps, spins, and takes off running. We didn't hear an impact. "Did you miss?" "Can't see how." About that time she stopped, turned around, and fell over. No death bellow but it took forty minutes before the rest would clear out and we didn't see her get up. She was laying dead in a huge pool of blood that appeared to come out her mouth. Shot through the heart. Next day we were stalking giraffe to cull when a candidate presented standing front on looking at us, just neck and head above the trees. "She's 200 meters. Can you make that shot?" No, not enough to shoot at. That's too far for a head shot. Okay. Onward to try again. Later we split a herd of eighteen and a lone dry cow tried to switch sides. We caught her in between and maybe a bit confused or undecided. She stopped quartering away and looked back at us. "165 meters. Can you do it?" No, I don't think so. A couple days before I had seen the 400 gr Barnes performance on eland at 196 meters and not impressed (I don't think the bullets had enough gas left to open up). So we kept after her and darned if she didn't stop again, this time fully broadside. "136 meters." "That works but leave quad sticks unfolded." I put a quick shot into her heart and she fell down dead within fifty yards.
 
michael458 said:
Now I have done my dead level best to avoid this thread, but thought this was a decent story, given what Ontario stated above.......and the jam. But what I keep seeing is about this cartridge, that cartridge, and what what what....... But I have seen nothing about What Bullet? Yes, I am a larger bore fan..... 458--.500--.510............. I have absolutely zero use for a POS 375 anything, useless rat caliber when it comes to serious work. Good Girly cartridge for the ladies that can't handle more recoil. And that includes little Girly Men too..........In fact, I won't even allow one to be around me, they make me sickly and want to PUKE at the mention and sight of 375. I utterly despise that caliber. But I dare say, my PH above was using a Round Nose FMJ something or other..... zero effect on that cow buffalo! Nothing! Right in the middle of the nose, nothing. I believe that had that been something else, such as a proper designed Flat Nose Solid, there might have been more effect! Anything but a useless RN 375 would have been better. If I recall correctly on this trip, I was also shooting a 510 gr big ass Flat Nose .500 caliber solid at 2150 fps in the 50 B&M, chest shot folded that cow on the spot, it hit hard and exited out the rear.......... At least one of them did, I did not see the other. There was very noticeable effect from the .500s.

However back to the issue of he bullet, I have seen and heard of buffalo shot with 500 NE with For Crap Bullets, and no effect either, crap results! The Bullet Does ALL The Heavy Lifting, regardless of caliber, use crap bullets no matter how big the caliber and you will get crap results! Use a proper designed bullet even in big bore calibers, and you will get big bore results!

Instead of a great lengthy, basically USELESS debate about this caliber is better than that caliber and blah blah blah all day long for weeks, one should be asking and debating, WHAT BULLET will accomplish the Mission ahead of me with the utmost effect for my requirements, within the caliber/cartridge/rifle I intend to use!

THE END
Click to expand...
I frankly wish you had avoided this discussion. I am going to ignore the bullshit about you needing a big caliber so you don't feel like a girly man as a partially humorous attempt to sound like Elmer Keith. Sadly, humorous or not, it is exactly the sort of nonsense that appears whenever chamberings for buffalo are discussed.

I totally agree that the bullet is every bit as important as placement. As you so ably demonstrated (yes, I know it wasn't you or your rifle's fault - the PH made you do it), a 50 in the guts is no more effective than a .375 would have been the same place. It is why I use and recommend Swift A-Frames or the TSX family of bullets. I would simply suggest the real lesson here is not shooting buffalo in the wrong place is the easiest way a client can stop a charge - before it happens.
 
Doug Hamilton said:
The .375 is popular because it is versatile. A great choice for a one gun safari. If, however, you are going out specifically for some big, tough and mean, maybe something a little bigger is a better option. A .300 Win Mag for PG along with a .458 Win Mag for buffalo seems like a good way to.go for me. I'd feel the same way if elephant or dry land hippo is ever on my list of things to do. I don't however, think I'll buy a .375 just because I don't want to get kicked by the.458.
Click to expand...
Out of curiosity, why a 300 win mag for PG? Isn’t that a minimum for eland, wildebeast, zebra and the like? Why not step up and use more gun! Why not a 375? Hits them harder! More margin of error. Is it just because you don’t want to be kicked by a 375?

I’m being facetious of course, but this is how the discussion comes across to me, for buffalo. It’s just silly. I think pachyderms are different, but people just want to buy and own and take to Africa a ~458~470 and tell themselves it’s a step up for buffalo, as that’s a more affordable and more available hunt.
 
michael458 said:
Cow buffalo, 40 yards or so, experimental .500 caliber bullet, and there was brush in the path. Told PH, no shot, there is too much brush! PH says, shoot, that bullet will bust through! I said No, too much brush! PH Said Shoot! OK Big Dog, lets dance. I shoot, buffalo ends up mixing with herd, can't find blood trail, herd runs off....... tracking no blood, getting zero dark thirty, have to call it off for the night, plan come back at first light and go to work!

Next morning, on the scene at break of day. PH decides we split up, I go in the way the herd ran with tracker, PH goes off along the sides where herd went.............. A few minutes go by, I heard PH shoot...... not far, I take off towards the shot running............ Get on the scene, PH is fumbling with a jammed up POS CZ 375, buffalo walking to us, PH hit buffalo in the nose, 375, no effect, now coming, I throw up the 50 B&M and hit her square in the chest twice, down, game over.........

The first bullet fired the day before, had indeed hit brush, turned sideways, hit far far back, clipping the rear of one lung. I told him not to shoot through the damn brush! 375 hit in the nose, zero effect, and then the POS gun jammed up tight for the duration of the fight. Good thing I was not too far away and could contribute to the battle. Buffalo was very sick, and not up for a running charge, was a good thing, because I would not have made it to the scene in time if it were running.

Lessons Learned? None! You would think that one would learn, PH ain't always 100% right! But no, one is drilled, always Listen to the PH! And I was always drilled! I have had several scenarios over the years that I SHOULD NOT have listened to the PH, I knew Better, even voiced that and shit, did it anyway! And yes on each occasion that I told the PH NO SHOT........ and He Insisted SHOOT... I did, and then we had a problem because of it! But we were always lucky and able to sort it out!

Now I have done my dead level best to avoid this thread, but thought this was a decent story, given what Ontario stated above.......and the jam. But what I keep seeing is about this cartridge, that cartridge, and what what what....... But I have seen nothing about What Bullet? Yes, I am a larger bore fan..... 458--.500--.510............. I have absolutely zero use for a POS 375 anything, useless rat caliber when it comes to serious work. Good Girly cartridge for the ladies that can't handle more recoil. And that includes little Girly Men too..........In fact, I won't even allow one to be around me, they make me sickly and want to PUKE at the mention and sight of 375. I utterly despise that caliber. But I dare say, my PH above was using a Round Nose FMJ something or other..... zero effect on that cow buffalo! Nothing! Right in the middle of the nose, nothing. I believe that had that been something else, such as a proper designed Flat Nose Solid, there might have been more effect! Anything but a useless RN 375 would have been better. If I recall correctly on this trip, I was also shooting a 510 gr big ass Flat Nose .500 caliber solid at 2150 fps in the 50 B&M, chest shot folded that cow on the spot, it hit hard and exited out the rear.......... At least one of them did, I did not see the other. There was very noticeable effect from the .500s.

However back to the issue of he bullet, I have seen and heard of buffalo shot with 500 NE with For Crap Bullets, and no effect either, crap results! The Bullet Does ALL The Heavy Lifting, regardless of caliber, use crap bullets no matter how big the caliber and you will get crap results! Use a proper designed bullet even in big bore calibers, and you will get big bore results!

Instead of a great lengthy, basically USELESS debate about this caliber is better than that caliber and blah blah blah all day long for weeks, one should be asking and debating, WHAT BULLET will accomplish the Mission ahead of me with the utmost effect for my requirements, within the caliber/cartridge/rifle I intend to use!

THE END
Click to expand...

Great points.

How many DG hunts gone sideways were worsened by the bullet design used.
 
@Red Leg thank you for the Sir Walter Scott quote. It has been a number of years since I read that book.

We can argue this for months , but remember that every animal is different some will take the shot and go lay down and give you a death bellow, the next one takes the shot and dumps large amounts of adrenaline and turns into a lead absorbing sponge.

I always plan on a rifle that is capable of dealing with the largest problem I could run into in an area. Which is why I have shot more game with 9.3 and bigger rounds. I have taken a 6.5 on two safaris in the EC where I didn’t have any of the big five in the area and my biggest target was a vallie.

Pick the correct rifle based on your requirements for the hunt, practice with it till you can do it ‘s manual of arms in the dark. Get in shape and go have fun.
 
michael458 said:
Cow buffalo, 40 yards or so, experimental .500 caliber bullet, and there was brush in the path. Told PH, no shot, there is too much brush! PH says, shoot, that bullet will bust through! I said No, too much brush! PH Said Shoot! OK Big Dog, lets dance. I shoot, buffalo ends up mixing with herd, can't find blood trail, herd runs off....... tracking no blood, getting zero dark thirty, have to call it off for the night, plan come back at first light and go to work!

Next morning, on the scene at break of day. PH decides we split up, I go in the way the herd ran with tracker, PH goes off along the sides where herd went.............. A few minutes go by, I heard PH shoot...... not far, I take off towards the shot running............ Get on the scene, PH is fumbling with a jammed up POS CZ 375, buffalo walking to us, PH hit buffalo in the nose, 375, no effect, now coming, I throw up the 50 B&M and hit her square in the chest twice, down, game over.........

The first bullet fired the day before, had indeed hit brush, turned sideways, hit far far back, clipping the rear of one lung. I told him not to shoot through the damn brush! 375 hit in the nose, zero effect, and then the POS gun jammed up tight for the duration of the fight. Good thing I was not too far away and could contribute to the battle. Buffalo was very sick, and not up for a running charge, was a good thing, because I would not have made it to the scene in time if it were running.

Lessons Learned? None! You would think that one would learn, PH ain't always 100% right! But no, one is drilled, always Listen to the PH! And I was always drilled! I have had several scenarios over the years that I SHOULD NOT have listened to the PH, I knew Better, even voiced that and shit, did it anyway! And yes on each occasion that I told the PH NO SHOT........ and He Insisted SHOOT... I did, and then we had a problem because of it! But we were always lucky and able to sort it out!

Now I have done my dead level best to avoid this thread, but thought this was a decent story, given what Ontario stated above.......and the jam. But what I keep seeing is about this cartridge, that cartridge, and what what what....... But I have seen nothing about What Bullet? Yes, I am a larger bore fan..... 458--.500--.510............. I have absolutely zero use for a POS 375 anything, useless rat caliber when it comes to serious work. Good Girly cartridge for the ladies that can't handle more recoil. And that includes little Girly Men too..........In fact, I won't even allow one to be around me, they make me sickly and want to PUKE at the mention and sight of 375. I utterly despise that caliber. But I dare say, my PH above was using a Round Nose FMJ something or other..... zero effect on that cow buffalo! Nothing! Right in the middle of the nose, nothing. I believe that had that been something else, such as a proper designed Flat Nose Solid, there might have been more effect! Anything but a useless RN 375 would have been better. If I recall correctly on this trip, I was also shooting a 510 gr big ass Flat Nose .500 caliber solid at 2150 fps in the 50 B&M, chest shot folded that cow on the spot, it hit hard and exited out the rear.......... At least one of them did, I did not see the other. There was very noticeable effect from the .500s.

However back to the issue of he bullet, I have seen and heard of buffalo shot with 500 NE with For Crap Bullets, and no effect either, crap results! The Bullet Does ALL The Heavy Lifting, regardless of caliber, use crap bullets no matter how big the caliber and you will get crap results! Use a proper designed bullet even in big bore calibers, and you will get big bore results!

Instead of a great lengthy, basically USELESS debate about this caliber is better than that caliber and blah blah blah all day long for weeks, one should be asking and debating, WHAT BULLET will accomplish the Mission ahead of me with the utmost effect for my requirements, within the caliber/cartridge/rifle I intend to use!

THE END
Click to expand...
You had a shitty PH. Mine always backed me up with 458 Lott but never fired any "followup" shots at animals I had hit that were running off. Not necessary. He knows I "can shoot." He also doesn't tell me to shoot extra "insurance" holes in animals that are down and obviously dead. Pointless.
 
Something that hasn't really been clearly stated in this thread is the intention of the cartridge designers.

The cartridges.458 and above are often designed specifically for Elephant.

Most of the recent .416 cartridges were designed with hunting Buffalo in mind.

The .375's were designed as heavy game, and all around cartridges.

We have the notes and public pronouncements of the factories and designers that introduced almost every cartridge popular today, and their intentions were very clear. Now, can a cartridge be used for something besides what it's designers intended? Of course.

Many experienced hunters and cartridge designers, often being the same person, figured the .375's or other cartridges were inadequate for Elephant, especially body shots. This is the exact reason for the 458 Lott, the 450 Rigby and others.

Another topic is the assumption that the 375's are some sort of lazer like death ray. They are not. The rifle, ammunition and shooter all work together to precisely deliver any bullet to the target. The skill level of the rifleman is the largest factor in this equation and the cartridge is quite a ways down the list.

Most people, even many experienced hunters are very poor at Basic Rifle Marksmanship. Choosing a 375 isn't going to make up for inadequate shooting skills.
 
skydiver386 said:
Something that hasn't really been clearly stated in this thread is the intention of the cartridge designers.

The cartridges.458 and above are often designed specifically for Elephant.
Click to expand...
I think I’ve said that in three posts getting to here.
 
skydiver386 said:
Something that hasn't really been clearly stated in this thread is the intention of the cartridge designers.

The cartridges.458 and above are often designed specifically for Elephant.

Most of the recent .416 cartridges were designed with hunting Buffalo in mind.

The .375's were designed as heavy game, and all around cartridges.

We have the notes and public pronouncements of the factories and designers that introduced almost every cartridge popular today, and their intentions were very clear. Now, can a cartridge be used for something besides what it's designers intended? Of course.

Many experienced hunters and cartridge designers, often being the same person, figured the .375's or other cartridges were inadequate for Elephant, especially body shots. This is the exact reason for the 458 Lott, the 450 Rigby and others.

Another topic is the assumption that the 375's are some sort of lazer like death ray. They are not. The rifle, ammunition and shooter all work together to precisely deliver any bullet to the target. The skill level of the rifleman is the largest factor in this equation and the cartridge is quite a ways down the list.

Most people, even many experienced hunters are very poor at Basic Rifle Marksmanship. Choosing a 375 isn't going to make up for inadequate shooting skills.
Click to expand...
Cartridge design was based on available bullets at that time. Modern bullet design has changed drastically from what was available at the time these cartridges were introduced. That has made the 375 a much better option today than it was a few decades ago.

I personally still prefer a larger caliber as it gives me a little more margin for error with shot placement and bullet being equal. I'm willing to endure a bit more recoil
 
Ontario Hunter said:
He also doesn't tell me to shoot extra "insurance" holes in animals that are down and obviously dead. Pointless.
Click to expand...
Sorry to say, but sounds like inexperience to me. Even if Buffalo is lying still, I let my guys shoot the spine off or through the brisket.
I've been on the wrong end of a bull. They move faster than you think and its the dead ones that get you.
I've had those lying completely still jerk at the shot. Makes you wonder.
 
mark-hunter said:
The breakdown summary is good. One point is missing only.
The attitude of hunter. And I think it plays a big role

If first shot by client is not effective at first sight and does not bring the animal instantly, then there are two types of clients, and two back up shots options:

1) The first type of client will instruct the PH to immediately fire second back up shot, if he thinks is necessary. PH cleared for back up shot

2) The second type of client will instruct the PH and insist to make second shot by himself, and PH not to interfere unless there is an animal charge situation. PH not cleared for back up shot.

Before the choice of caliber, this makes the first decision of client, and that has to be agreed with PH before the hunt.

Which type of client in those two scenarios is more likely to loose the animal?
Hmm... ?

:unsure:
Click to expand...
If I had to decide I would be the second type of client and have never lost an animal. To be fair though, it has never come up with a PH. I'd also rather have the PH thinking about the animal and signaling when to shoot etc. rather than how he would make the follow up shot.

Also, the attitude you are talking about has nothing to do with caliber choice. Though those using rat calibers should be the first type of client. ;)
 
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Do you mind me asking what auction you are referencing? I'm not in the market for any of those rifles...just curious.

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K_P wrote on Buckleyguy12's profile.
Good morning from Montana.

I'm looking at a post from 2018 where you were looking for a lefty Winchester in .375 H&H Magnum. I'm selling mine. My email is [redacted] in the event that you're still searching for a unicorn.

Best,

Kelly Palmer
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HENRY GRIFFITHS SAFARIS
HENRY GRIFFITHS SAFARIS
Gents, if you book and pay your deposit before the end of this year , you can have the bigger cull package for the 2026 price! https://www.africahunting.com/threa...griffiths-safaris-starting-at-us-2-560.96285/
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HENRY GRIFFITHS SAFARIS
HENRY GRIFFITHS SAFARIS
I am currently in Northern Cape scouting a hunting area, we will have lots of amazing hunting opportunities for 2027! I will post updated available dates soon!
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