Mid-bore Shootout 338wm vs 375HH

Picking lightest bullet for caliber and then comparing to a mid weight bullet in another caliber skews the numbers.
Same as comparing bullet drop of two different calibers, but one has a 100 yard zero, the other a 200 yard zero. Not a true comparison but ammo companies do it all the time.

There was a reason that I was comparing the 235g load in the 375 to the 200 and 225g loads in the 338. I needed a rifle with a high degree of performance out to 300y. This is easy for the 338 but the heavier bullets in the 375 loose velocity so fast that beyond about 225y they simply drop below the 2000fps limit to insure consistent expansion in the TSX loads. That does not mean they won't kill but it means that I could see inconsistent performance and that is not acceptable. The 235g load on the other hand stays above 2000fps out past 350y. If I knew I could count on a 200y shot, then the 300g TSX would be a no brainer. Gotta face it, the 375HH is not a long range cartridge. It is a good mid-range option with a lot to offer. The 338wm is a legit 400y option and is why I took it on my Nilgai hunt and why it wins the competition for primary hunting rifle on the Moose hunt.
 
There was a reason that I was comparing the 235g load in the 375 to the 200 and 225g loads in the 338. I needed a rifle with a high degree of performance out to 300y. This is easy for the 338 but the heavier bullets in the 375 loose velocity so fast that beyond about 225y they simply drop below the 2000fps limit to insure consistent expansion in the TSX loads. That does not mean they won't kill but it means that I could see inconsistent performance and that is not acceptable. The 235g load on the other hand stays above 2000fps out past 350y. If I knew I could count on a 200y shot, then the 300g TSX would be a no brainer. Gotta face it, the 375HH is not a long range cartridge. It is a good mid-range option with a lot to offer. The 338wm is a legit 400y option and is why I took it on my Nilgai hunt and why it wins the competition for primary hunting rifle on the Moose hunt.
I recently got a 338 win mag. For my next Safari I wanted to hunt some Baboons for fun. My PH recommended the 338 over a 9.3X62 mainly due to the range efficacy.
 
There was a reason that I was comparing the 235g load in the 375 to the 200 and 225g loads in the 338. I needed a rifle with a high degree of performance out to 300y. This is easy for the 338 but the heavier bullets in the 375 loose velocity so fast that beyond about 225y they simply drop below the 2000fps limit to insure consistent expansion in the TSX loads. That does not mean they won't kill but it means that I could see inconsistent performance and that is not acceptable. The 235g load on the other hand stays above 2000fps out past 350y. If I knew I could count on a 200y shot, then the 300g TSX would be a no brainer. Gotta face it, the 375HH is not a long range cartridge. It is a good mid-range option with a lot to offer. The 338wm is a legit 400y option and is why I took it on my Nilgai hunt and why it wins the competition for primary hunting rifle on the Moose hunt.
I concur with all that you say. Pick a bonded bullet if you're concerned about expansion & weight retention below 2000 fps. There are many premium bullets that can handle this challenge while performing well a closer ranges. I think the Nosler accubonds could be ideal for longer ranges and hold together up close on non dangerous game OK enough.
 
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I concur with all that you say. Pick a bonded bullet if you're concerned about expansion & weight retention below 2000 fps. There are many premium bullets that can handle this challenge while performing well a closer ranges. I think the Nosler accubonds could be ideal for longer ranges and hold together up close on non dangerous game OK enough.
I love bonded bullets but am still limited to what I can locate in factory ammo options.

I have some 300g AccuBonds for the 375. They are factory loads from Nosler. When I chron'ed them last year prior to the Nilgai hunt, I found them to be loaded very mild. My Barnes factory loads were 100fps faster and more consistent in my rifle. I also have 225g AccuBonds for my 338. They are also loaded very mild and my 338 did not like them at all. The best groups I could get were 3" at 100y. For whatever reason, my 338 is very ammo picky. My son's 338 on the other hand loved the AccuBonds and he used them to drop a Nilgai with one shot at 237y this winter. I know they work good but for my rifles that option is not on the table. I plan to stick with the Barnes copper monos. I have used them enough to know that they are effective as long as I do not try to push them too far.

I do also have the Federal loaded with 200g Trophy Bonded Tip bullets for my 338. These are a bonded lead core with a solid copper shank. My 338 shoots them very well. It is a viable option but out at 300y the heavier Barnes TTSX carries a bit more energy and almost the same velocity. I am sure the TBT load would expand better at lower velocity and at longer ranges than 300y but I really do not want to shoot at live game out past that distance with the 338. The lower power scope and lower overall precision just make getting consistent impacts questionable out much past that distance. Yeah, Moose is a big target but I like to know that my shots are going to be on the mark as opposed to hoping for a impact with a hail Mary shot. Most hunting shots should be inside 300y anyways. We are better hunters than that.

A comment I would offer to hunters who do not reload. Not all factory ammo performs the same. Some are much better than others.

A few years ago, I got a new chrono and make it a habit to chrono all of my range sessions. Consistently, I have found that only Barnes and Federal make factory ammo that is both super consistent and loaded very fast with quality bullets like the TSX, the Swift Scirocco, or the Trophy Bonded, Fusion Bonded etc bullets. Their QC is just superior to everyone else. This makes Federal and Barnes my top choice for factory hunting ammo.

Hornady makes some smokin fast loads with their Superformance line but it is always loaded with only Hornady bullets. That is OK if you like their bullets. I love their V-Max varmint loads and have had success with SST's and CX on big game but they are not my #1 choice. Swift factory ammo is loaded by Lawyers? Maybe but if not, they are using conservative powder charges. Too slow and no more accurate than other, hotter factory loads. Double Tap is loaded hot but that often means it is not the most consistent or most accurate. My 30-06 is shooting them very well but it shoots everything very well.

If your rifle shoots the DT's well, they can get you a few more fps and better long range ballistics. Winchester sucks. I simply stopped buying their crap. I do not know what their problem is. Seems that their marketing dept is doing the engineering? Their old silvertip bullets were the only ammo I have ever had fail on a deer. I still killed it but it took five shots. Was so shot up that I only got about 20lbs of hamburger from it. Some of the later fodder had a Nosler Ballistic tip clone that worked ok but they still suffer QC issues that made me stop even looking at their products.

Norma is good. Quality bullets, murky marketing. I had to spend more time to understand their product line but the quality is great and they sometimes offer cool factory loads with Swift A-Frames or other premium bullets. Their bondstrike ammo is a favorite. Hendershots - mfg of custom ammo. I had them make me some 375HH loads with 300g Swift A-frame and 300g North Fork cup point solids to take to Africa. To date, I have had four mis-fires with the A-Frame loads and at least two with the North Fork loads. Not sure of the overall cause but it almost cost me a Kudu. I suspect either dead primers or poor seating or head spacing/resizing leading to light strikes. I thank God that I chose not to use them for my Cape Buffalo. That could have been a disaster. Barnes shot better in that rifle and nailed the big buff without any drama.

Image below is two shots from my FN Browning 375HH at 100y aiming at center of the 1" tgt dot. The cold bore shot was the one on the upper right closest to the center. I was only shooting a couple of foulers before testing some other ammo to confirm zero. I did not shoot a 3rd simply because it would have been a waste of ammo. This is typical performance of this Barnes ammo in both of my 375's Hard to beat this. I did not measure them but looks like less than 3/4" c-c

FN 375 at 100y w 300g TSX.jpeg
 
I love bonded bullets but am still limited to what I can locate in factory ammo options.

I have some 300g AccuBonds for the 375. They are factory loads from Nosler. When I chron'ed them last year prior to the Nilgai hunt, I found them to be loaded very mild. My Barnes factory loads were 100fps faster and more consistent in my rifle. I also have 225g AccuBonds for my 338. They are also loaded very mild and my 338 did not like them at all. The best groups I could get were 3" at 100y. For whatever reason, my 338 is very ammo picky. My son's 338 on the other hand loved the AccuBonds and he used them to drop a Nilgai with one shot at 237y this winter. I know they work good but for my rifles that option is not on the table. I plan to stick with the Barnes copper monos. I have used them enough to know that they are effective as long as I do not try to push them too far.

I do also have the Federal loaded with 200g Trophy Bonded Tip bullets for my 338. These are a bonded lead core with a solid copper shank. My 338 shoots them very well. It is a viable option but out at 300y the heavier Barnes TTSX carries a bit more energy and almost the same velocity. I am sure the TBT load would expand better at lower velocity and at longer ranges than 300y but I really do not want to shoot at live game out past that distance with the 338. The lower power scope and lower overall precision just make getting consistent impacts questionable out much past that distance. Yeah, Moose is a big target but I like to know that my shots are going to be on the mark as opposed to hoping for a impact with a hail Mary shot. Most hunting shots should be inside 300y anyways. We are better hunters than that.

A comment I would offer to hunters who do not reload. Not all factory ammo performs the same. Some are much better than others.

A few years ago, I got a new chrono and make it a habit to chrono all of my range sessions. Consistently, I have found that only Barnes and Federal make factory ammo that is both super consistent and loaded very fast with quality bullets like the TSX, the Swift Scirocco, or the Trophy Bonded, Fusion Bonded etc bullets. Their QC is just superior to everyone else. This makes Federal and Barnes my top choice for factory hunting ammo.

Hornady makes some smokin fast loads with their Superformance line but it is always loaded with only Hornady bullets. That is OK if you like their bullets. I love their V-Max varmint loads and have had success with SST's and CX on big game but they are not my #1 choice. Swift factory ammo is loaded by Lawyers? Maybe but if not, they are using conservative powder charges. Too slow and no more accurate than other, hotter factory loads. Double Tap is loaded hot but that often means it is not the most consistent or most accurate. My 30-06 is shooting them very well but it shoots everything very well.

If your rifle shoots the DT's well, they can get you a few more fps and better long range ballistics. Winchester sucks. I simply stopped buying their crap. I do not know what their problem is. Seems that their marketing dept is doing the engineering? Their old silvertip bullets were the only ammo I have ever had fail on a deer. I still killed it but it took five shots. Was so shot up that I only got about 20lbs of hamburger from it. Some of the later fodder had a Nosler Ballistic tip clone that worked ok but they still suffer QC issues that made me stop even looking at their products.

Norma is good. Quality bullets, murky marketing. I had to spend more time to understand their product line but the quality is great and they sometimes offer cool factory loads with Swift A-Frames or other premium bullets. Their bondstrike ammo is a favorite. Hendershots - mfg of custom ammo. I had them make me some 375HH loads with 300g Swift A-frame and 300g North Fork cup point solids to take to Africa. To date, I have had four mis-fires with the A-Frame loads and at least two with the North Fork loads. Not sure of the overall cause but it almost cost me a Kudu. I suspect either dead primers or poor seating or head spacing/resizing leading to light strikes. I thank God that I chose not to use them for my Cape Buffalo. That could have been a disaster. Barnes shot better in that rifle and nailed the big buff without any drama.

Image below is two shots from my FN Browning 375HH at 100y aiming at center of the 1" tgt dot. The cold bore shot was the one on the upper right closest to the center. I was only shooting a couple of foulers before testing some other ammo to confirm zero. I did not shoot a 3rd simply because it would have been a waste of ammo. This is typical performance of this Barnes ammo in both of my 375's Hard to beat this. I did not measure them but looks like less than 3/4" c-c

View attachment 781713
Sounds like you have options. Enjoy the quest!
 
I enjoy testing and planning and thinking about my hunts for months prior to the actual hunting. I suppose this is my way of wringing out as much enjoyment as I can from my limited hunting time and budget. This fall, I am going to Canada on a combined Moose and Elk hunt and am playing with a number of rifles prior to locking in two for the trip. I plan to take a typical heavy deer rifle such as a 7mm Mag or a 30-06 set up for longer shooting out to about 400y and then I will also take a midbore either my 338wm or my 375HH optimized for shooting out to about 300y. I plan to hunt with the midbore but wanted to have options if we find that we are having a hard time getting inside of my 300y limit. I have never been to this locale but am told that a lot of it is open river valley with some tree cover. My desire is to stalk to within 200y but am totally comfortable out to 300y with all of these rifles and am capable of further shots with some of them.

I have hunted with all of these and have killed deer sized and larger game with most of them. Only the 30-06 remains un-blooded. It is pretty obvious that all of these rifles can kill Moose or Elk and that is not the question. I am still mulling over my latest range data and am not going to claim any special knowledge regarding the to midbores under consideration and would love to get your comments or advice prior to my hunt in early October. Meet the candidates:

Sako 85, 338wm with Arken EP-8 1-8x optic. I thought I had totally settled on the 338wm for this hunt. It shoots the 225g Barnes TSX (2863fps ave) to 1" at 100y. And the 200g Federal Trophy Bonded Tip (2936fps ave) to 3/4". Both of these factory loads produce single digit SD's and are enough to do the job. The little Arken scope is not a long range optic but it has a FFP reticle and a tiny little aiming dot in the center of the reticle that enables very precise aiming if time and conditions allow which lets it punch well above its weight class on longer shots. I have used an identical scope in Africa to take a Blk WB at over 300y. The glass is on par with scopes costing 10x its price and it holds up well to the magnum recoil. I can shoot out to 400 with that optic but that is getting out of its optimal window. I would call this rifle my default first choice.

FN Browning Safari Grade 375HH with Swarovski Z6i 1-6x with Duplex reticle. I took this rifle to Africa on my first Safari and have never hunted with it since. It is set up for dangerous game and the Swaro is NOT a long range scope. The aiming dot in the center of the 2FP reticle is huge and covers a 3" aiming sticker on a 100y target. This makes precise aiming less precise but does enable very quick adequate target acquisition in the field and the glass is about as good as it gets. This rifle was zeroed at 100y for the Barnes 300g TSX and shoots 1/2" - 3/4" with that load (2564fps ave). But, for the wide open Canada hunt, I wanted something faster, flatter and did not feel it necessary to use the big heavy 300's for Moose or Elk. I have some 250g TBBC ammo from Federal (2690fps ave) that might be good but the one time I used them on deer, the wound looked like it penciled thru with little or no expansion. That bullet was optimized for big boned thick skinned game and I do not trust it - yet. So, the load I am considering for this hunt is the Double Tap ammo loaded with a 235g Barnes TSX. They claim 3100fps but in my 24" bbl the actual chrono'ed speed is 2913fps ave. It is not a tack driver but did produce a 2" group at 100y and about 4" at 200y. It shoots 1mil high at 100y and 2" high at 200y which is about a 275y zero. After 275y, it begins to drop like a stone and at 300y is hitting about 4" below the POA. At 300y it is still going 2128fps which is more than enough to travel thru a Moose me thinks. This load is faster than the fastest 225g load for my 338 and about equal in speed to the fastest 200g load for my 338. So, it is bigger, faster, heavier but not as accurate. But, accurate enough to hit the KZ on a Moose or Elk out to 300y. I am not going to go swapping scopes around and the Swarovski optic on this rifle is NOT the best choice for this hunt. The reticle is optimized for close range and the turrets adjustment is coarse at best. one click at 100y is 1.5cm (0.6"). My first shots at 200y were about 2" high so I dialed it down one click and the shot was zeroed at 200y. I was trying to be 1" high at 200 but ended up leaving it at 2" high so it would not fall off so fast at 300y. In this application the Arken is the better scope, I am sad to say.

So, in summary the 375HH with the light fast 235g loading is a legit 300y rifle that should hit like a hammer. It gives up some precision but is accurate enough and is trucking along at 2128fps at 300y. This gives it 2384 ft-lbs energy at 300y. Great right? While the scope is not optimal, it is a great scope with many good features and able to meet the need out to 300y.

Looking at the 338wm one more time, the 225g Barnes TTSX loads are a boat tail tipped load that has a better BC than the fat stubby 375. This helps the 338 to maintain its velocity out further. At 300y, it is still going 2348fps. This turns out to translate to 2754 ft-lbs energy at 300y. Whaaat? So, the 338 possesses a decisive energy advantage at my self imposed 300y range limit over the bigger, badder 375HH. That was an eye opener. The old standby 300g TSX load is potent enough but it dropped more at 300y and at that distance has even less energy than the lighter faster load and honestly past about 200 or 250y it's speed had dropped below 2000fps which is my limit for copper mono bullets just to insure that they will expand properly. The point being that the 338 out performs the 375 at longer ranges.

What started out as my seriously considering taking the 375HH as my Moose hunter midbore, has turned a 180 and I am back to the conclusion that my 338wm loaded with the 225g Barnes TTSX BT Bullets is the answer to my question.

Stay tuned - Next time we will break down the 7mm RM vs the 30-06 for Elk and Moose. Since we will be hunting African style and will be riding in a 4x4 glassing for game at a distance and once located will dismount and stalk on foot, I will have the luxury of taking two rifles with the 2nd being optimzed for longer range open terrain shooting. The two under consideration are the 7mm RM and the 30-06. Both shoot very well and both can easily hit 12" steel at 400y.

View attachment 781215
On Left is 375HH FN Browning Safari Grade wearing an earlier Leupold optic​
@JG26Irish_2
Sounds like you are just having fun as you have already made up your mind to take the 338 before you started. That would have been my choice of the 2.

To throw a spanner in the works that's why I love the Whelen with a 225grainer. Shoots flat enough to 400 and still delivering over 2,000fpe at that range. At times only owning one mid bore makes life simple.
Bob
 
Decision on .338 Win Mag vs .375 H&H is answered by the battery makeup. I consider the .30-06, various .300’s, and .375 outstanding one-gun All Round Cartridges. I use a battery approach of:
7mm STW
.338 Win Mag
.416 Rigby
.470 NE
.500 Schüler
Therefore skipping the .30’s and .375’s and zeroing in on my specific application needs.
 
Just as a shout out to BobNelson35whelen, recommending the 338 is equivalent to recommending the 35 Whelen HANDLOADED TO BOB'S SPECS....no?
@steve white
I'd take my Whelen over the 338 anyway. 300yard shots are a doddle and outro 400 it's shoots a little flatter than my son's 08 loaded with 150gn SST. Quart bottles ( one litre) are easy at 400 with a little holdover.
Bob
 
200y and under is my 1st choice as well. Until last year in Africa, I had never fired on a game animal at a range longer than 202y by choice. Sure, I had killed prairie dogs and coyotes further but they do not count. Last year, I was forced to take shots at 243, 280, and 314y in Free State simply because it was wide open terrain and every time we approached a herd the many eyes would bust us and off they went. The only reason, I am prepping for this hunt to plan for taking shots out to 300 or 400y is because the guide said some of the terrain is very open. I am confident with my 338 out to 300y but still prefer closer if possible.

I have only hunted once with my 338 and that was a Texas Nilgai this past winter. That shot was 155y with a 225g TTSX BT and was a bang/flop result. Very impressive. I also took a coyote one morning with the 200g Trophy Bonded ammo and it was equally impressive at about 200y. In most ways, I think it is more potent on game than the 375 but need a few more data points to be confident in that claim. It reminds me of the competition between small fast bullets vs big slow bullets and which kills better. Clearly the Big-Fast bullet is the best of the lot, lol. Below are pics of my Sako85 in 338wm.

View attachment 781324View attachment 781325
@JG26Irish_2
There's only one solution to your range conundrum.
Practice, practice and more practice until you are confident in your longer range skills.
That way you are prepared for anything from the muzzle upto your self imposed maximum.
Bob
 
Well, you could just go full retard and split the difference by getting a brand new rifle in .358 Norma. I’m pretty sure even @Bob Nelson 35Whelen would approve.
;)
@analog_peninsula
Surprise I wouldn't go the 358 Norma.
The Whelen loaded properly ain't far enough behind the big Swede to worry about.
There's no flies on a 225 grainer out of the Whelen a 2,900fps. This will give you 4,200fpe at the muzzle Andover 2,000fpe at 400.
If'n that ain't enough for most big game it's time to give hunting away.
Bob
 
Well, you could just go full retard and split the difference by getting a brand new rifle in .358 Norma. I’m pretty sure even @Bob Nelson 35Whelen would approve.
;)
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but Norma’s .358 Mag requires a magnum-length action, resulting in an overall heavier rifle for minimal ballistic gain over the .35 Whelen.

The .35W uses a standard .30-06-length action and rifles typically can be had in a 22”-24” sporter-weight configuration. Maybe better if the barreled action is dropped into a light-weight synthetic stock.

In my case, my all-of-8lbs Remmy model 660 in .350 Rem Mag - with 20” barrel, laminated stock, mount and scope - gets better than Whelen factory ballistics up to 270grns when handloaded.
 
@analog_peninsula
Surprise I wouldn't go the 358 Norma.
The Whelen loaded properly ain't far enough behind the big Swede to worry about.
There's no flies on a 225 grainer out of the Whelen a 2,900fps. This will give you 4,200fpe at the muzzle Andover 2,000fpe at 400.
If'n that ain't enough for most big game it's time to give hunting away.
Bob

You keep talking all that nonsense and I’m gonna have to buy one of those.
 
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but Norma’s .358 Mag requires a magnum-length action, resulting in an overall heavier rifle for minimal ballistic gain over the .35 Whelen.

The .35W uses a standard .30-06-length action and rifles typically can be had in a 22”-24” sporter-weight configuration. Maybe better if the barreled action is dropped into a light-weight synthetic stock.

In my case, my all-of-8lbs Remmy model 660 in .350 Rem Mag - with 20” barrel, laminated stock, mount and scope - gets better than Whelen factory ballistics up to 270grns when handloaded.
The .358 Norma Magnum utilizes a standard .30-06 length action just like the 35 Whelen. The .358 Shooting Times Alaskan requires a magnum length action.
 
The .358 Norma Magnum utilizes a standard .30-06 length action just like the 35 Whelen. The .358 Shooting Times Alaskan requires a magnum length action.
Okay, good to know. Why I asked it that way. I thought I’d read somewhere (in the gun rags probably) that a magnum action was required for the.358 Norma.
 
I would take the Browning Safari 375 H&H with the Swaro scope. Simply because i am a fan of the controlled feed Browning Safari rifles and the nostalgia of using the ageless 375 H&H. In addition, the glass in the Swaro is gonna be way better than the scope on your 338WM. That may make a difference if your target is in heavy shade or appears at last light. Regardless, it seems you are having as much fun making preparations as you can stand LOL.... ;-)
 
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but Norma’s .358 Mag requires a magnum-length action, resulting in an overall heavier rifle for minimal ballistic gain over the .35 Whelen.

The .35W uses a standard .30-06-length action and rifles typically can be had in a 22”-24” sporter-weight configuration. Maybe better if the barreled action is dropped into a light-weight synthetic stock.

In my case, my all-of-8lbs Remmy model 660 in .350 Rem Mag - with 20” barrel, laminated stock, mount and scope - gets better than Whelen factory ballistics up to 270grns when handloaded.
@Jack Stevens
The 358 Norma requires a standard length action and brass can be made out of 338 or 7mm mag cases.
The 358 STW needs a magnum length action.
Bob
 
There is NOTHING in North America that the .338 win mag isn’t an excellent choice for. I first started hunting with my .338 in 1985, a Brown Bear hunt on Kodiak. The bear was across a canyon, well over 200 yards away. I was shooting a 250 grain Nosler Partition. Two quick shots and the bear died less than 25 yards from the first shot.

My farthest shot on a big animal was with the load I primarily use these days, which was a 225 grain Barnes TTSX; on a Livingstone Eland in Zambia. Ranged at 320 yards, one shot and he took a few steps and fell over, dead.

I leave in less than a month for Mozambique and my .338 is what I’m taking. 225 grain TTSX’s & North Fork solids. My buddy will be hunting with my .375, so I’m using my .338 for everything that I shoot.

@JG26Irish_2 you simply cannot go wrong by taking your .338.
 

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migrabill wrote on Surgeon1's profile.
Be careful of this Wolfen guy. 2 messages. Both trying to sell something. He PM'ed me trying to sell something and he PM'ed my friend on here trying to sell something. Fishy.
autofire wrote on Dr Ray's profile.
Hi Dr. Ray, I will be in Cooktown from Oct 16 to Oct 23 fishing Lizard Island Black Marlin Tournament.

I have several "slack" days after fishing before I head for stay in Sydney and Fiji.

Do you have any recommendations for 1 or 2 day hunt near Cooktown?

I've hunted both DG and PG in 4 different countries in Africa.
Thank you,
Bob
 
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