Politics

cwpayton said:

While I believe slavery was a catalyst for the war between the states , and drummed up a lot of angst in the north, its hard for me to visualize any of my southern relatives owning slaves as most were barefoot and too poor to buy one , should they have had a need for one. Large plantation owners not so much. there was a strong sentiment for states rights and anti tax on cotton among other things. Its likely the same today if we were to have a redo of the civil war and history stated emphatically it was about abortion probably not really. while some Cherokee owned slaves it wasnt wide spread for them.
While religious zealots took up that mantle in the north, its a fact that the south was a very" bible belt" population itself.
And again Gen LEE said I must support my state, Virginia. That is my personal belief and will probably cause the war to be refought now on this forum. But I was born in Texas and my Mothers side from Georgia, sooo.

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Most mega plantations were owned by northern interests

farmer_john said:

Most mega plantations were owned by northern interests

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Got any supporting info?

farmer_john said:

Most mega plantations were owned by northern interests

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jruby said:

Got any supporting info?

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Virtually all large plantations in the antebellum South were owned by the wealthy, local planter class. It is true that Northern banks profited greatly from financing agricultural debt, which was always very high, ownership belonged almost exclusively to the Southern property owners.

Tanks said:

You mean like those who ordered the bombing of Düsseldorf and participated in it?

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Just checking but do you mean Dresden? I don't think the Dusseldorf bombings are really that controversial.

Aaron N said:

You don’t think it’s possible for the wealthy landowners to whip all sorts of stories to get the less educated folk riled up in a frenzy to put their lives on the line? Rich men sending the poor off to fight for them is the oldest tale in history

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Neither side was entirely clear, even unto themselves, with respect to the motivation for armed conflict. I would quickly add, none of this is particularly debatable.

South Carolina's secession, which was driven by the notion of state sovereignty and the state's associated independent rights, was indeed inherent to the debate over the future of slavery. But slavery as an institution, had little to do with the reason men chose to volunteer and take up arms.

In the North, the cascading number of states seeking to secede generated, at least in the first couple of years of the conflict, a very real patriotic desire to preserve the union at any cost. The end of slavery was well down the priority list and the purview of the abolitionists. We have only to turn to Lincoln's own words on the issue in August of 1862. "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."

In the South, the reason for taking up arms was also unburdened with political nuance. McPherson's Pulitzer prize winning "Battle Cry of Freedom" quotes an unnamed confederate rifleman captured in 1862 or 63 who replied to why he was fighting when he owned no slaves. "I'm fighting because you're down here."

In an age where every issue and event in history is viewed through the ignorant prism of "presentism," we have difficulty conceiving of an era where patriots felt every bit as much loyalty to their state as to the nation as a whole. Lee's words following being offered the command of the Union Armies is a perfect example. "I look upon secession as anarchy. If I owned the four million slaves of the South, I would sacrifice them all for the Union, but how can I draw my sword upon Virginia, my native state."

We can trace the date that ending slavery did become a major goal of the war to a very specific series of events. Due to both economic and hemispheric policy reasons, both Great Britain and France were debating recognition of the Confederacy. It is important to remember that any negotiated end to the war meant a Southern victory of some sort. British recognition in particular would have meant breaking the blockade of Southern ports if not actual British involvement assuring a conclusion other than total Union victory.

As a result, Lincoln drafted the Emancipation Proclamation and presented to his cabinet in July 1862. The cabinet advised him to withhold release until after a Union victory so it would not seem an act of desperation. The battle of Sharpsburg (Antietam), a tactical draw but strategic victory in September of 62 provided the opportunity. The proclamation carefully only addressed slaves in the secessionist states, but inevitably made the end of slavery a goal of the conflict.

Most importantly to Lincoln, the proclamation made it impossible for either Great Britain or France to formally come to the Confederacy's aid or offer recognition.

Big_Easy said:

Except that you have to remember that it's actually an insurance policy. And that current workers paying for current retires is how the system was setup in the first place. Plus it was set-up in the wake of the great depression. It took 25 years for the stock market to recover to pre-depression levels. 35 years to double that amount, and 54 to triple it. Trusting one's entire retirement savings/future to the stock market wasn't exactly a good idea back then. But hey, if it's such a ponzi scheme, then let's get rid of it. I'm sure the retired members of this forum would have no problem with that. And I would get a 6.2% pay increase. 7.65% if we get rid of medicare too.

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Oh yah, you're right, it's a whopping success story, my bad.

The balls up just seems to get worse......going to be no winners me thinks....mmm....well apart from USA and Iran depending on who you listen to.....

And how well Russia is continuing its fkup....

It can always be worse.

spike.t said:

And how well Russia is continuing its fkup....

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Yeah, and I see Putin just threw his token political opponent in jail for ... being an opponent. I give the guy two weeks before he's dead. Putin seems to enjoy being creative when disposing of these poor chaps. Wonder what it will be this time. Slipped in the shower and bashed his skull in two?

Trump is getting trolled even by Iranians about his asinine 20% toll statement.

Listen to him babble nonsense! Wow! I mean Biden had an excuse: onset of dementia. But even he never carried on like this. No comparison. So embarrassing. And yet some still believe Trump has credibility. You know ... the same folks who think the drug companies put microchips in COVID vaccines. It's all the mainstream media's fault. They make him talk nonsense.

Ontario Hunter said:

Listen to him babble nonsense! Wow! I mean Biden had an excuse: onset of dementia.

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Whats your excuse?

Ontario Hunter said:

Listen to him babble nonsense! Wow! I mean Biden had an excuse: onset of dementia. But even he never carried on like this. No comparison. So embarrassing. And yet some still believe Trump has credibility. You know ... the same folks who think the drug companies put microchips in COVID vaccines. It's all the mainstream media's fault. They make him talk nonsense.

Trump: 'I would be the greatest communist in history'

President Trump has repeatedly brought up communism, and while at the NATO summit, he said that the U.S. is in more danger from communism now than it was during events like the World Wars and September 11th.

www.nbcnews.com

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Did you actually listen to what he said rather than just the first sentence? He was basically criticizing communism.

@Ontario Hunter can't help it. After he sucked all he could out of the US, he expanded to Canada. After sucking all he can out of both countries he's at a loss of where to go next and this causes confusion. He's reverting to living in his dream world of exaggeration about his feats in the military, all the royalty who have asked his advice and just general delusion.

"Break your enemy's blockade, by blockading their blockade" - Don Tzu Art Of War