Cast Lead vs Monolithic Solids for Serious Work....................

michael458 said:

I don't think choice has much to do with it, more of like its all they have on hand......... and it really does not work out all that well. This was recovered from an elephant I took some years ago.

View attachment 767864



Do you mean a Barnes Solid? Surely not a "TSX" expanding copper bullet? Fine for rats and such, but not much else..........

Without a doubt most likely, especially not including time spent........ However, for my part, I will will stick to proven tools. Normally I order bulk, but all they had on this order was boxed, I had to unbox them for proper storage........

View attachment 767866View attachment 767865

Look forward to the Range Report.................

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micheal458
This was posted by andrew62 on this forum .
I have taken 4 elephant with a .375H&H, 2 of which were frontal brain shots. One of those was with 300 grain Barnes banded solid, dropped at the shot stone dead, the other frontal was with 300 grain Barnes TSX, yes, TSX. Hunted the Nyakasanga area in November 2009, guide said they had a tuskless tag left, would I like to try for one. That was an easy ‘yes’, came up on the tuskless, shot her between her eyes, she sat back on her butt, I put 3 in her chest, she never went anywhere. And no guide took a backup shot!

This is why I am using the Barnes 300 TSX in the 375 H&H testing .
It has been used and reported on elephant and worked .
I have a lot of Barnes 375 300 TSX on hand

David jr said:

This was posted by andrew62 on this forum .
I have taken 4 elephant with a .375H&H, 2 of which were frontal brain shots. One of those was with 300 grain Barnes banded solid, dropped at the shot stone dead, the other frontal was with 300 grain Barnes TSX, yes, TSX. Hunted the Nyakasanga area in November 2009, guide said they had a tuskless tag left, would I like to try for one. That was an easy ‘yes’, came up on the tuskless, shot her between her eyes, she sat back on her butt, I put 3 in her chest, she never went anywhere.

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David......... Yes, as I read this it says ONE Frontal Shot with 375 TSX and then three more to the chest as insurance. This is ONE BULLET frontal shot! Another matter, "Tuskless", all tuskless are not created equal to a big bull elephant. Fact is, most tuskless I have seen are smallish, very small in comparison to a bull elephant, even a medium size teenager bull. Before the crowd goes nuts, yes there are exceptions and there are some that would be larger than normal....... I am saying the tuskless I have personally seen, and even shot (I ended up having to take another hunters tuskless as he was incapacitated at the time) are small and in no way can be compared to a bull elephant. I could have taken that one with a 223 and a proper solid easy...........

David jr said:

This is why I am using the Barnes 300 TSX in the 375 H&H testing .
It has been used and reported on elephant and worked .
I have a lot of Barnes 375 300 TSX on hand

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David, a 375 Barnes TSX is not an elephant bullet. It is not in any normal circumstance considered as something anyone on the planet would load up and go elephant hunting with. It most certainly would not be chosen as a "Benchmark" bullet for your experiment to live up to. Now, if you were testing expanding bullets for perhaps large rats, you would be correct in your choice of a "Benchmark" to live up to. If you said your Benchmark was a 375 Barnes FN Solid or CEB #13 Solid, then fine........... But not a TSX for Elephant, based on ONE SHOT on ONE (Probably) Smallish Tuskless.

Not too long ago someone was running a thread and was indeed shooting elephant with TSX bullets, I forget the reason behind it, and as I recall it was a much larger caliber. But even with that, it is not something that would be done under any normal circumstance. I doubt very seriously any person that is on this forum, as a client hunter has ever gone elephant hunting with a TSX as his primary bullet, and I doubt very seriously if any African PH on the planet has ever recommended to a Client Hunter to use a TSX bullet for elephant hunting.

Personally, I believe you should rethink this. 375 caliber is one thing (Which I despise to begin with), but a TSX is another planet...............

My Opinion is worth what you pay for it......... I think you chose very wisely in your choice of Benchmark bullet for 458 caliber, and I think you have not done so with your choice in 375 caliber. But Like I said, its worth what you paid, and it is your test..............Your Choice.

Hello all
I was setting the OAL for the 458 rounds and had to pull a bullet in a Kinetic bullet puller.
I found out real quick 6 2 92 15 BHN is way too soft for the elephant bullet no need to shoot.
So I am making up some 30 BHN Bullets for the testing now.
The 30 BHN will be for elephant it will be 7% tin 6% antimony 87% lead so it should not be brittle
like land type lead.

On another hand I am going to have Corbin make me up a die for my Corbin hydrolock machine .
I can make the extreme penetrator bullet shape in the 458 lead bullets.
I contacted Lehigh bullets to have a 450 gr .458 bullet made.
Lehigh have no interest in producing a 450 gr .458 extreme penetrator bullet shape.
This bullet should be devastating on Lion and plains game NOT FOR ELEPHANT

Riflecrank
You ask why .458 diameter?
I shoot a lot of silencers and muzzle break rifles and with lead bullets the over sized lead bullets in .459 or .460 bullets lead bullets leave a lot of lead dust made when exiting the barrel in .459 or .460 diameters which leads to leading build up right at the muzzle which will start effecting the accusers on the rifles very quickly.
I have been able to stop this lead dust build up with the .458 diameter bullets .
Now the only way this is don is with modern bullet lube and palmer coating the entire bullet not powder coating .
Powder coating has lead to other problems with lead bullets ,the new palmer coating has done away with powder coating problems.
The palmer coating is set with ultra violet lighting not heat .
I am sorry I can't tell which palmer coating I have found it is a traid secret with Hunters Supply .

David jr,
Your proposed alloy is getting mighty close to Linotype, brittle and
with BHN of 21-22 and I do not see how that will be brought to BHN 30 unless there is some arsenic in there for heat treatment.

.458" cast bullets in the .458" to .459" grooves of custom and factory barrels
are not optimal in any regard.

I would never shoot cast bullets of any description through a suppressor,
no matter how they are coated, plain-based nor gas-checked (especially).

I think cast bullets for elephants is a fool's errand unless willing to try something like this:







Those poor-quality images are screenshots from our hero's Youtube.

I have never tried it, but I might want a mould like Matt's Bullets used,
and I recall Ranger Rick brand associated with that sort of bullet too.
Then I would cast them in BHN25 that would stay that hard longterm.
54.0 grains of H4895 gave 1518 fps chrono from a 22"-barreled .458 WIN MAG M70 pushfeed Dirty Harry rifle.

Pushing BHN25 through a 0.460" sizer gives spring-back to 0.461",
and that is the best performing bullet in all my .458" to .459" grooves.
Gas-checked and PC-painted and aged 2 weeks on the shelf and they are back to BHN25 for good.


Above is from a slim-barreled .458 WIN MAG, McGowen No. 4 Sporter trimmed to 23" barrel length. No lead fouling, no paint fouling, just powder fouling.
Eastwood Ford Light Blue is my favorite PC-paint now.
Even better than Harbor Freight Red.
No "high-tech" coatings needed.

Riflecrank said:

I think cast bullets for elephants is a fool's errand unless willing to try something like this:

View attachment 768776

View attachment 768777

View attachment 768778

Those poor-quality images are screenshots from our hero's Youtube.

I have never tried it, but I might want a mould like Matt's Bullets used,
and I recall Ranger Rick brand associated with that sort of bullet too.
Then I would cast them in BHN25 that would stay that hard longterm.
54.0 grains of H4895 gave 1518 fps chrono from a 22"-barreled .458 WIN MAG M70 pushfeed Dirty Harry rifle.

Pushing BHN25 through a 0.460" sizer gives spring-back to 0.461",
and that is the best performing bullet in all my .458" to .459" grooves.
Gas-checked and PC-painted and aged 2 weeks on the shelf and they are back to BHN25 for good.

View attachment 768781
Above is from a slim-barreled .458 WIN MAG, McGowen No. 4 Sporter trimmed to 23" barrel length. No lead fouling, no paint fouling, just powder fouling.
Eastwood Ford Light Blue is my favorite PC-paint now.
Even better than Harbor Freight Red.
No "high-tech" coatings needed.

Click to expand...

Your 458 has .459 groves ? more like SAMI specks of .450 bore and .458 grove can be +2 thousand over but not often run into on 458 win mags they just did not make enough 458 win mags.
and you are using a custom barrel not a mass produced factory barrel ?

yes your 730 gr bullet is the same shape as my 695 gr bullet depends on the lead mix on the bullet weight out of mold .

My mold with 5% tin 95% lead mix ( called 20 to 1 mix ) drops 705 grains and makes a perfect 2.5 inch flower at 100 yards on a steel plate shot from a custom air rifle at 750 fps at 100 yards .
See photo

And yes you can't push your shown very long bullet fast enough in a 458 win mag to achieve the speed needed with this very long bullet. IMR 4895 is to bulky AA 2230 or Win 748 would help a little on the precious case space with this bullet design in the 458 win mag .

This is why the 458 Lott was invented powder space behind bullet compared to the 458 win mag.

Now the 458 win mag really shines with barnes or cutting edge 450 gr bullets at 2350 fps
cant deny this fact.

But we are talking about a lead bullet for elephant which will have to be over 500 grains to
achieve the penetration needed in a frontal brain shot.

I will cast up the lead mix I have told you about and will shoot in a savage push feed 22 inch barrel
model 116 Safari SS 458 win mag in the up coming testing . On lone from a friend .

My 535.68 gr bullet is looking as the best bullet nose for a straight line penetration my 695 and your and your 730 gr just will not stay on a straight line and give the penetration needed to blunt of nose for the speed genotrated in 458 win mag
TESTING WILL TELL THE TROUTH ON NOSE DESINE for a lead bullet.

My model 70 is being converted to a 458 Lott.
In my model 70 win control feed I could extend the bullet OAL another 100 thousand over what you I am seeing in your ammo from your photo I was seating on the first grease grove not the bullet crimping grove .
I was able to reach 1836 fps with this bullet in 6 2 92 15 BHN lead in my model 70 458 win mag.
Not fast enough for elephant frontal brail shot with this very long blunt nose bullet .

Yes my lead has arsenic in it already , all of my lead is certified lead straight from a US foundry .
I know every small particle in my lead mix.

I have water quenched my bullets and can reach 30 BHN ( 6 2 92 15 BHN ) in one week no problem I just do not trust water quenching that much it will go back to 15 BHN around the one year mark .

The new lead mix will have 7% TIN AND ONLY 6% ANTIMONY the tin is needed to add strength to the lead mix the common mistake is adding antimony to increase lead hardness
and yes you will be brittle adding more antimony than tin .

I can see your photo of the end of a barrel there is no threading on your barrel so I am supposing you have no way of seeing what is expelled out of the barrel with any bullet no mater the bullet metal being used.

Here is a simple test for you to use on your barrel take a pice of 8x11 paper wrapped around the end of your barrel and tape it securely behind the muzzle only stick past the end of barrel may be 1 inch max and shoot you will see what is imbedded on the paper
please shear with us the photos showing your powder coated lead bullet is not blowing out lead dust from the muzzle .
All lands in the barrel will cut through the powder coating with the lands cant stop this unless you paper patch the lead bullet . all lands are over 1000 deep ( thickness of powder coating usually 1000 ) or you could not get the spin on your bullet the lead would strip and never give a grouping even at 25 yards.

Yes all lead bullets have spring back may be you should try a lee push through die at .457 for the spring back of .4575 or.458 ( depends on your lead mix ) you might be surprised what diameter bullet really shoots in your custom 458 win mag barrel the best , just a friendly suggestion .

I have no idea what your max speed of testing with a lead bullet in a 458 win mag is ?

I have taken a 350 gr lead gas checked bullet over 2600 fps ( 458 win mag ) and yes you need a muzzle break or a silencer to help on sight recovery for the next shot unless you are Mr Universes body builder ?

I am a 64 year old man with both shoulders being rebuilt many years ago and my knees have been bone on bone for many years thanks to being a bull doggier and playing football in my younger years.
Knees are coming along very well with a special therapy no need for replacement .
I am up to 3.5 miles with a 12 pound rifle and shell belt holding 20 458 rounds in 2 H and 30 min a couple of times every week around my outer fence line on my ranch .
My back is not as it was when I was 20 years old really hurts shooting over 200 rounds off a bench
or shooting sticks of big bore ammo 375 H&H 416 'S and 458's . I do not own a 500 or 600 nitro double rifles .
I have been shooting the big calibers every month for many years this is being address with inversion table and hot tub and a nerve block on lower back . Working very well now.

Keep up with your postings maybe you and I can come up with lead something that works in the 458 win mag for elephant frontal brain shots .
I have decided to take the easy way around and switch to 458 Lott

Davidjr

David jr,
SAAMI spec, yes, minimum groove 0.458" with plus tolerance of 0.002"
so anything from .458" to .460" groove diameter is "in spec."
I have slugged fourteen .458 WIN MAGs on hand (among the forty ".45-cal rifles" I have), a few more factory barrels than custom barrels.
0.459" is the most common groove diameter you will see on factory rifles for .458 WIN MAG.
McGowen and Pac-Nor slugged 0.458", Shilen slugged 0.4585".
0.459" is smack in the middle of SAAMI spec.
I have noticed no velocity difference in .458" versus .459" groove diameters.
Likewise no difference in 1:14" versus 1:10" twists in detectable velocity or pressure indications.

You say "My Model 70 is being converted to a 458 Lott."
Do you mean that you are having a SAAMI .458 WIN MAG re-chambered to .458 Lott with no barrel setback ?

1.) If so, slug your barrel and see if it is not 0.459" in the grooves.
Both Winchester M70 Super Grade .458 WIN MAG and Ruger RSM .458 Lott factory barrels I have on hand are 0.459" for slugged groove diameter.

2.) If so, you will have residual .458 WIN MAG throat ahead of your now non-SAAMI .458 Lott chamber.
The SAAMI .458 WIN MAG chamber reamer cutting length is longer than the SAAMI .458 Lott chamber reamer cutting length.
You will be able to chamber .461" diameter cast bullets, but with less nose projection than possible with the standard SAAMI .458 WIN MAG.

I also have a pin gauge of .4495". It slips into all my .458 barrels supposed to have SAAMI minimum bore diameter of 0.450" with plus tolerance of 0.002". That is all I can tell about bore diameters, they are all about 0.450" minimum.

SAAMI bullet diameter spec for jacketed bullets (cup&core, monometal brass and copper)
is 0.4590" maximum with a minus tolerance of 0.0030", so bullets of
0.456" to 0.459" are "in spec"
but certainly not so for cast lead alloy bullets.

I strongly disagree with your use of groove-diameter cast lead bullets.
I also do not think you understand the SAAMI throatings of both .458 WIN MAG and .458 Lott and the hybrid .458 Lott/WIN MAG you might be awaiting.

I also think you are invested in finding a cast-lead elephant bullet due to your business in cast-lead bullets. It will be a great advertising stunt if it works.
I am not so invested.
Good luck.

Riflecrank said:

David jr,
SAAMI spec, yes, minimum groove 0.458" with plus tolerance of 0.002"
so anything from .458" to .460" groove diameter is "in spec."
I have slugged fourteen .458 WIN MAGs on hand (among the forty ".45-cal rifles" I have), a few more factory barrels than custom barrels.
0.459" is the most common groove diameter you will see on factory rifles for .458 WIN MAG.
McGowen and Pac-Nor slugged 0.458", Shilen slugged 0.4585".
0.459" is smack in the middle of SAAMI spec.
I have noticed no velocity difference in .458" versus .459" groove diameters.
Likewise no difference in 1:14" versus 1:10" twists in detectable velocity or pressure indications.

You say "My Model 70 is being converted to a 458 Lott."
Do you mean that you are having a SAAMI .458 WIN MAG re-chambered to .458 Lott with no barrel setback ?

1.) If so, slug your barrel and see if it is not 0.459" in the grooves.
Both Winchester M70 Super Grade .458 WIN MAG and Ruger RSM .458 Lott factory barrels I have on hand are 0.459" for slugged groove diameter.

2.) If so, you will have residual .458 WIN MAG throat ahead of your now non-SAAMI .458 Lott chamber.
The SAAMI .458 WIN MAG chamber reamer cutting length is longer than the SAAMI .458 Lott chamber reamer cutting length.
You will be able to chamber .461" diameter cast bullets, but with less nose projection than possible with the standard SAAMI .458 WIN MAG.

I also have a pin gauge of .4495". It slips into all my .458 barrels supposed to have SAAMI minimum bore diameter of 0.450" with plus tolerance of 0.002". That is all I can tell about bore diameters, they are all about 0.450" minimum.

SAAMI bullet diameter spec for jacketed bullets (cup&core, monometal brass and copper)
is 0.4590" maximum with a minus tolerance of 0.0030", so bullets of
0.456" to 0.459" are "in spec"
but certainly not so for cast lead alloy bullets.

I strongly disagree with your use of groove-diameter cast lead bullets.
I also do not think you understand the SAAMI throatings of both .458 WIN MAG and .458 Lott and the hybrid .458 Lott/WIN MAG you might be awaiting.

I also think you are invested in finding a cast-lead elephant bullet due to your business in cast-lead bullets. It will be a great advertising stunt if it works.
I am not so invested.
Good luck.

Click to expand...

LOL Riflecrank
I am glade you are such an expert in the mater of 458 win mag .

YOUR QUOAT "I strongly disagree with your use of groove-diameter cast lead bullets.

You are upset because I am sizing my lead bullets to my grove diameter .458 to element lead dust build up in silencers and muzzle breaks , but you keep going ON ABOUT all of the 45 cal you have put your hand on are .459 and you are insisting I size my bullets to your grove diameter of .459 what the f#$$%%%$# are you saying you are doing the exact same as I am .only your bore is .001 larger bore diameter SUPPOSEDLY .459 all most every 45 cal you have had in your hand is supposedly .459 and you are saying you are sizing to .459 I really have to question your STATEMENTS ?

You have no Idea what I have done in the gun industry do you sir ?

I was the youngest licensed warranty station in Dallas Texas in 1976 at the age of 14 under my parents FFL license .
Yes I did warranty work for all the major gun manufacture of the time .
I was invited to all the factory to be trained under the factory gunsmiths .

I hade people flying from around the world for my gun smithing on their firearms including the secrete service ,border patrol , US Marshall and many others .

I really take offense at your last jab at me personally .

YOUR QOUAT "I also think you are invested in finding a cast-lead elephant bullet due to your business in cast-lead bullets. It will be a great advertising stunt if it works.
I am not so invested."
ADVERTISE MENT STUNT I am retired and have 0 interest in my company Hunters Supply cast bullets I STARTED MANY YEARS AGO . I have stated this in my postings on this forum.

Hunters supply sells bullets around the world and does a lot of privet labeling for some of the major manufacture's NO NEED FOR B. S. STUNTS

You calm the jacketed bullets are being made in .459 not in the US all are .457 or .458
no need to make a bigger diameter all modern firearms can and do shoot undersized jacketed bullets just fine even micro grove barrels .

I see you are refusing to address the mater of bullet dust ejected out of the end of your muzzle ?

I have stated many times my bucket list is to take all the African game with LEAD BULLETS just as the OLD TIMERS DID BEFORE JACKETED BULLETS WERE AROUND .
if you can not accept this then please move on .
I do not need your BS contradiction statments on a 458 win mag bore diamenter

YOUR QUOTE I also have a pin gauge of .4495". It slips into all my .458 barrels supposed to have SAAMI minimum bore diameter of 0.450" NO COULD IT BE BECAUSE IT IS A UNDER SIZED PIN GAGUE L.O.L.

HERAS YOUR SIGHN L.O.L.

Davidjr

David jr,
You are slippery as hell and nothing sticks.
That characterization is not my original literary flare, but it fits you perfectly.
I previously stated that I size all my cast bullets to .461" for use in both .458" and .459" grooves of .458 WIN MAG rifles.
That simple factoid did not stick on you either.
I can only conclude that your mental deficiency may be due to chronically elevated blood lead levels.
Carry on with the dumb.

Lead is dead but one has to consider the shooting environment also. If I used cast lead, I wouldn't shoot beyond 100 yds; but that's me. CEB makes some unbelievable monolithic bullets

Well go away for a bit & how this place has gone too another level lol

@David jr I’ve got no issues whatsoever with the premises of you want to fulfil your bucket list & that I can live with easily which on the next couple lines I kinda agree yet also disagree with respect & I’ll break that down in a minute but the middle one of this quote below is where it really comes in so let’s just absorb those words below for a bit

David jr said:

I am not so invested."
ADVERTISE MENT STUNT I am retired and have 0 interest in my company

NO NEED FOR B. S. STUNTS


I have stated many times my bucket list is to take all the African game with LEAD BULLETS just as the OLD TIMERS DID BEFORE JACKETED BULLETS WERE AROUND .

Click to expand...

1st off here’s my interpretation
you are not invested yes
while on the other hand you are ( yep both sides of the coin)

0 interest in “ my company”
It’s your daughter’s company now is this not correct? So would be better worded imo .
Yet also you ( I assume) like too see your daughter succeed & prosper so by doing what you’re doing you’re also invested hence both sides of the coin
& if I have seen anything of the way some companies will work they will seize the opportunity of any dead critter by whoever took it REGARDLESS of how it worked & put it up as a centrefold piece that ultimately gives them traction in their business
( I speak from experience here & will not name companies this time that have shown to go this route here as I want to get to your stuff & not derail but believe me I will call BS out when they do with fact after fact that occurs & these facts are what we should actually discuss not get emotional or derail & that I hope one can ? )
That above is a very fine line that actually is not that fine from my position as it’s easily distinguished
& your seeing this in the pictures from other members previously with the honing in on meplat distortion
Now how much of this is acceptable is a great discussion to have & one that you see the likes of 2800 being used for brass ,
this actually is hugely dependent on nose profile & what it impacts & must be understood if one wants consistency but one must also understand that it’s deeper than just the profile itself as it’s also the whole package under various scenarios that play out in the field & why it’s paramount to understand the weaknesses of either the alloy , design under various conditions that will present in the field

These are what are fun to test for & where I’m personally extremely lucky as my wet news print is living breathing critters & a lot of them I might add just last week three figures of bovine camels & horses were taken & many autopsies preformed

Now everyone of those critters died & nothing lost so why do testing hmmmm
Here’s why the level of killing efficiency varied from a I couldn’t tell a difference from the baseline bullet used to the test bullet to a bloody hell that was lucky or another round ( or 2 ) was needed to fix the first f-ck up

So once that is taken on board one can see patterns of what design works better than others & @ what resistance the results occurred at while repeating over & over gives us consistency that has a good understanding of the traits/patterns of that design which serves us with better consistency

Now if that’s absorbed & actually taken in one will see you davidjr are not putting a valid test together in the 375 as your base pill being the tsx as you looked @ the ONE OFFS of when things went ok with a dead critter but if you search ( easily on here is plenty of information about tsx also ) for the ones that didn’t go well you’ll understand it’s really a bingo raffle on if the tsx will work on elephant or not & that bingo raffle is why the knowledgeable ones state only solids for elephant that is a very important fact to understand before the next part of the equation can be entered into

Yep it’s Why reliability & consistency is extremely important !!!!

& that all starts back @ alloys & meplats & it’s ability to withstand deformation & one that I look forward to seeing your results as your test media will show us a lot but it is also flawed with respect as every other test media is as nothing compares to the real critters themselves but learn from it we definitely can , but one better hone in on the know points of failure that every bullet has & test those again & again to work out those weaknesses , then hopefully you’ll cover the what iffs in the field & why you see the likes of the 458 ceb #13 solid your using as a baseline pill to compare against is a very good test comparison while your 375 tsx is a extremely poor one to say the least so a bit more research is definitely needed imo & it’s not to late to change out the tsx for a better suited option but they are not not my tests sir so do what you like as I have no say in that only offering my opinion on what I’ve seen be a better pathway to finding the better bullets not just the ones that will kill but one I am extremely interested in your results & await the results of your tests as I do hope that you complete your bucket list but also one I hope you can relay its a option that due to your tests to come has limitations as every brand / style does it’s discussing these openly that serves us & the critter the best & I hope to do this

Cheers

Whilst I find the information interesting and the general discussion good , the lack of grammatical clarity and the appalling spelling is making it hard to understand at times. I oft times will have difficulty spelling correctly due to dyslexia and the stupid autocorrect so I will re-read what I have written but things will slip through
I will endeavour to take a picture of the rounds and cast projectiles I use in my 458 wind bag
Gumpy

Gday grumpy

Grumpy gumpy said:

Whilst I find the information interesting and the general discussion good , the lack of grammatical clarity and the appalling spelling is making it hard to understand at times. I oft times will have difficulty spelling correctly due to dyslexia and the stupid autocorrect so I will re-read what I have written but things will slip through
I will endeavour to take a picture of the rounds and cast projectiles I use in my 458 wind bag
Gumpy

Click to expand...

I apologise for my extremely poor writing skills and auto correct gets me now & then sorry so I totally understand how hard I personally am to understand so if I’m unclear please ask as this is a extremely good discussion to have & come so we can all learn a little bit more off ea other & one ultimately that raises the bar I hope
Cheers

Fordy, your posts aren’t the ones making my head explode, one of the down sides to mild dyslexia is I fixate on the errors as my brain tries to make sense of the sentence
Gumpy

If a buffalo skull can rivet a Barnes Flat Nose Bronze .416 400 grain bullet like this, I don't know that I would have wanted a hard case lead bullet to be what I was sending down the bore.

I've casted and shot thousands of lead bullets over the years. But for me, they are not what I'd want in Africa.

Fordy,
Your posts ring clear as a bell here.
Grumpy gumpy cleared that up with his reference to David jr, as I infer it.
However he did type "458 wind bag" so your suspicion of his meaning was warranted.
Three-figure tally of bovines, camels and horses for the latest walk about ?
I hope the meat is being sorted to the humans and dogfood factories.

ftrovato's Barnes Banded Solid .416/400-gr makes me wonder if the Barnes "bronze" differs much from the CEB brass, metallurgically.
I suppose the impact velocity would be of interest too.
The ogived-FN nose of BBS versus the CEB BBW#13 FN nose shape is another worm in the can.

Hello All
A lot of you do not agree with a barns tsx ok I will switch to a solid for the 375 H&H and the 416 Taylor.
I have the 458 covered .

I am borrowing a safari savage model 116 SS 22 inch barrel in 458 win mag,
I have completely reworked this rifle it started at just seven pounds now with scope sling lead in butt stock 1.5 inch limb saver recoil pad free floated barrel added four port muzzle break with sound forward outer sleeve on muzzle break and re worked feed ramp it now is 10 pounds 10 oz .
and fells like a 243 with the 520 gr bullet at 1538 fps .

Now to date my friend has used the hunters supply .459 520 flat point 15 BHN at just a slow 1538 fps . IMR 3031 powder.
This load has taken 4 wild bulls to date with complete pass through from chest to tail and quartying and perfect side shots ,all but two bulls were one shot kills the one took two shots.
Bull was quirting head on first shot paralyzed the bull second dropped instantly .
The other bull required three shots was a experiment with a 450 bush master Hunters supply 340
flat point .452 bullet 15 BHN at 2300 fps .The 450 bush master broke one front shoulder but did not slow down the bull second shot was bad shot in gut ,bull went into very heavy brush and my friend went in after him with the 458 520 bullet found the bull hunting him at 15 feet one shot with the 458 bullet had complete pass through side shot .

So in real life testing yes the 458 win mag 520 lead FP at 1530 is working very well on wild bulls in the US no they are not African buff or elephant but every one is over 2000 pounds and will kill you. and no bullet from the 458 has been recovered conclusion may be I do not need 2000+ fps 26.8 BHN with cast bullets in 458 calibers ?

I have made up some 7% tin 6% antimony lead BHN 26.8 and will test in a 55 gallon drum fulled with water to see how the 26.8 BHN is holding up if it fall's apart then we know it is to hard and I will adjust lead mix . the 15 BHN 458 520 gr will make a perfect mushroom at 1530 fps in 55 gallon water drum .

I have started working up a load for the 375 346.8 gr lead bullet had to go to .379 DIAMETER with the 26.8 BHN lead mix in my Three different 375 rifles to achieve good grouping have used AA4350 VARGET bullet did not like these two powders . Today I switched to H 4831 which is showing real promos at 2250 fps at 2450 fps grouping was terrible three inches for five rounds 50 yards .

When I do the elephant head test media it will be one shot and change out media no way to confuse
the test results . No it is not a real animal but as close as I can come up with in the US
I will add water buckets for three feet behind elephant skull test media then three feet of sand buckets trying to catch bullets .

The test media is not cheep I have shopped around and the cheapest cost per shot is in the 135 dollar range per shot not counting ammo. and there will be 3 solids as test standards ,
one lead 416
three lead 375
five 458 win mag lead
five 458 lott lead
so this testing will cost around 2295.00 Not counting ammo .

Now what solid will you prefer for the 375 300 gr or 350 gr?
416 will be 400 gr.
Barnes or cutting edge brand ?

I thank all you for your inputs on this adventure .

Some do not agree with my choice of bullet metal that is ok this is what this forum is about
hunting African animals with a lot of different bullets and calibers and I thank all of you for your
input .

I have no intention on using the 375 for elephant lion hippo and buff may be for crock and plains game , I have not made up my mined If I will take two rifles on this safari .

The 416 Taylor will only be used on plains game by my son in law on the up coming safari .

All of you have a great day

David Jr

Riflecrank said:

ftrovato's Barnes Banded Solid .416/400-gr makes me wonder if the Barnes "bronze" differs much from the CEB brass, metallurgically.
I suppose the impact velocity would be of interest too.
The ogived-FN nose of BBS versus the CEB BBW#13 FN nose shape is another worm in the can.

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Barnes doesn't make the .416 400 grain in a flat nose anymore.

When I called them they communicated that there was concern over feeding so the company was forced to change to a round nose.

I've since bought a box of CEB 400 FN but haven't used any yet since I still have plenty of the Barnes.

I suspect the bullet was traveling around 2200 fps when it went into the buffs head. It was found lodged in his spine. I discussed the performance of the bullet with Barnes since it riveted. They were very happy with its performance since it entered between the eyes of the buff and drove straight to and through the spine. They felt the collision with so much bone merited the riveting.

Gday riflecrank

Riflecrank said:

Fordy,
Your posts ring clear as a bell here.
Grumpy gumpy cleared that up with his reference to David jr, as I infer it.
However he did type "458 wind bag" so your suspicion of his meaning was warranted.

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give me time lol & I’ll become unclear no doubt

Riflecrank said:

Three-figure tally of bovines, camels and horses for the latest walk about ?

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Yes was a way different situation this year as there has been a lot of rain in central aussie which has created a tremendous amount of feed in the desert country & still water points in a lot of places were present which has resulted in small mobs & the critters being widely dispersed also resulted in not going to the normal water points either man made or natural so numbers well down on normal levels

Riflecrank said:

I hope the meat is being sorted to the humans and dogfood factories.

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Overall this is the sad reality of a lot of Aussie especially when you take in the remoteness as it is another level & you just can’t process these guys ( the stations ( properties/ranches ) are measured in sq kilometres not acres yep they are pretty big ) which results in a lot of critters shot & left to rot although I did keep some for our own use but overall it’s nothing really
The bovines are cleanskins ( unbranded or earmarked ) & the ones we target in this area are the bulls as the genetics arnt what the station owners want in their herds as growth rates & meat yields are not as good as the genetics that they have on their own cattle & these ones left after mustering are what we target ( only got 5 this time)
Camels , horses are just a pest & everything gets a bullet where we can regardless of size & great media testing you get although my days are coming too a end on bullet testing/ autopsies


Cheers