Cast Lead vs Monolithic Solids for Serious Work....................

[Fordy]

Gday riflecrank

ftrovato's Barnes Banded Solid .416/400-gr makes me wonder if the Barnes "bronze" differs much from the CEB brass, metallurgically.
I suppose the impact velocity would be of interest too.
The ogived-FN nose of BBS versus the CEB BBW#13 FN nose shape is another worm in the can.

A lot of People don’t understand the importance of above

The hard part is discussing the pill’s abilities when you see results like @ftrovato some will only look @ the kill , some will look @ what it actually did & you’ll get a few to look a little deeper into it & start seeing patterns in what it actually done & try & work out why it did what it did which then you come back around to your post above as these are extremely important things to understand of ultimately getting the best bullet possible ( a lot of good bullets today but very few great )

These cast bullets im looking forward to @David jr results & how it all stacks up & compares to the points you highlighted above
Cheers

 

[cajunchefray]

Hello All
A lot of you do not agree with a barns tsx ok I will switch to a solid for the 375 H&H and the 416 Taylor.
I have the 458 covered .

I am borrowing a safari savage model 116 SS 22 inch barrel in 458 win mag,
I have completely reworked this rifle it started at just seven pounds now with scope sling lead in butt stock 1.5 inch limb saver recoil pad free floated barrel added four port muzzle break with sound forward outer sleeve on muzzle break and re worked feed ramp it now is 10 pounds 10 oz .
and fells like a 243 with the 520 gr bullet at 1538 fps .

Now to date my friend has used the hunters supply .459 520 flat point 15 BHN at just a slow 1538 fps . IMR 3031 powder.
This load has taken 4 wild bulls to date with complete pass through from chest to tail and quartying and perfect side shots ,all but two bulls were one shot kills the one took two shots.
Bull was quirting head on first shot paralyzed the bull second dropped instantly .
The other bull required three shots was a experiment with a 450 bush master Hunters supply 340
flat point .452 bullet 15 BHN at 2300 fps .The 450 bush master broke one front shoulder but did not slow down the bull second shot was bad shot in gut ,bull went into very heavy brush and my friend went in after him with the 458 520 bullet found the bull hunting him at 15 feet one shot with the 458 bullet had complete pass through side shot .

So in real life testing yes the 458 win mag 520 lead FP at 1530 is working very well on wild bulls in the US no they are not African buff or elephant but every one is over 2000 pounds and will kill you. and no bullet from the 458 has been recovered conclusion may be I do not need 2000+ fps 26.8 BHN with cast bullets in 458 calibers ?

I have made up some 7% tin 6% antimony lead BHN 26.8 and will test in a 55 gallon drum fulled with water to see how the 26.8 BHN is holding up if it fall's apart then we know it is to hard and I will adjust lead mix . the 15 BHN 458 520 gr will make a perfect mushroom at 1530 fps in 55 gallon water drum .

I have started working up a load for the 375 346.8 gr lead bullet had to go to .379 DIAMETER with the 26.8 BHN lead mix in my Three different 375 rifles to achieve good grouping have used AA4350 VARGET bullet did not like these two powders . Today I switched to H 4831 which is showing real promos at 2250 fps at 2450 fps grouping was terrible three inches for five rounds 50 yards .

When I do the elephant head test media it will be one shot and change out media no way to confuse
the test results . No it is not a real animal but as close as I can come up with in the US
I will add water buckets for three feet behind elephant skull test media then three feet of sand buckets trying to catch bullets .

The test media is not cheep I have shopped around and the cheapest cost per shot is in the 135 dollar range per shot not counting ammo. and there will be 3 solids as test standards ,
one lead 416
three lead 375
five 458 win mag lead
five 458 lott lead
so this testing will cost around 2295.00 Not counting ammo .

Now what solid will you prefer for the 375 300 gr or 350 gr?
416 will be 400 gr.
Barnes or cutting edge brand ?

I thank all you for your inputs on this adventure .

Some do not agree with my choice of bullet metal that is ok this is what this forum is about
hunting African animals with a lot of different bullets and calibers and I thank all of you for your
input .

I have no intention on using the 375 for elephant lion hippo and buff may be for crock and plains game , I have not made up my mined If I will take two rifles on this safari .

The 416 Taylor will only be used on plains game by my son in law on the up coming safari .

All of you have a great day

David Jr

@David jr , I really appreciate your knowledge about the metalurgy of lead alloys, and bullet performance. Thanks for informing us plebes.

My grandfather was a blacksmith, forge welding broken plows, tractor axles, etc. I loved to watch him work.

Crafting a properly cast and hardened lead alloy as a solid is very interesting.
I will be following your test results as you develop data.
BTW, 416 Taylor is a favorite of mine, but the 458 Win Mag (Whitworth) can probably get the job done.

I

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

As per my post before, some of the 458 wind bag ammo that I use in mine( must reload some more) from left to right 350 gn hollow point (I think Sierra, I bought 300 loose for 0.02cents each) ,hornady 325 ftx, woodleigh 405gn PP , Bullet factory 405gn soft nose ( no longer made), 560 gn hard cast , 600gn hard cast, 625(?) gn hard cast. I couldn’t find the 700gn hard cast or the 550 gn copper jacketed projectiles, my reloading area is a mess from when we moved
As to the wind bag tittle, I don’t think it is the be all and end all cartridge as some seem to claim. I prefer my 404 Jeff



Gumpy

 

[Fordy]

Gday davidjr

Now what solid will you prefer for the 375 300 gr or 350 gr?
416 will be 400 gr.
Barnes or cutting edge brand ?

My thoughts For the 375 is a 300 gr as that is better suited to the h&h re velocity wise

Don’t like the Barnes banded especially the RN versions so the ceb would get my vote on what you put up
Cheers

 

[Riflecrank]

Randy Garrett figured it out already.

45-70 540gr +P Hammerhead 20 CTGS-4570/540+P

garrettcartridges.com

540-gr Hammer Heads of BHN 25 and gas checked, driven at about 1550 fps MV from a .45-70 Gov't.
Vince Lupo had an exit on the side brain shot elephant, and a dead elephant.

45-70 Ammunition

Heavier bullet weight at same velocity would be more likely to make the nose expand and decrease penetration.
Harder bullet might overcome that.

Higher velocity will increase the resistance the bullet meets with.

540 grains of BHN 25 at 1550 fps MV is a sweet spot apparently.
600 grains of BHN 30 at 1600 fps MV ... maybe that would work ?
750 grains of BHN 35 at 1400 fps MV ... is that possible ?

Whatever, the loads with cast lead will have to be more like .45-70 than .458 Lott.
Easiest of all to do well with a .458 WIN MAG with SAAMI throat,
loaded to keep velocities down to maintain bullet integrity.

Remember the 2001 Linebaugh seminar penetration tests ?
The Garret 540-grainer at about 1550 fps MV from a .45-70 beat the .458 WIN MAG with 500-grainer at 2260 fps.
They did not mention that the .458 WIN MAG was handicapped by a Round-Nose "Encapsulated Solid."
That probably went sideways and bent the soft lead inside the brass jacket of that awful bullet from Hornady, bless their heart, when they experimented briefly with no steel in the "FMJ Solid."

 

[David jr]

Hello all,

Had to get wet today testing .
Water testing one of the toughest things in the world for bullets .

Today was the first real testing with the 375 H&H and the 350 gr bullet mold.

The 6% antimony 7% tin 87% lead did just what I figured would happen in water
241.4 gr recovered .
base of bullet intact 103.5 gr
The velocity 6 7 87 lead mix , 347.7 gr 2335 FPS 4201 FT LBS

The 6% antimony 2% tin 92% lead did what it has always done in water but I was surprised how much was vaporized or shattered into dust in the water.
178.5 gr recovered
base of bullet intact 91.4 gr
The velocity 6 2 92 lead mix , 343.6 gr 2307 FPS 4098 FT LBS

Both had gas checks attached that could not be found in the water tank, may have been blown out with the water ejected.

Will try with the 6 7 87 lead mix on the elephant head test next.

Not looking for much but we might get a surprise in elephant head testing .

Have a great day
DavidJr

 

[Fordy]

Gday davidjr
Here’s a bit that just showed up on what we were talking about re bullets not just killing

it’s one’s like this link below that show what has happened numerous times throughout many places that many people on the whole are pretty shielded from but once you talk to the ones who are on the ground a lot , one understands a little better of why a dead critter is not the be all & end all as it is often the less than ideal results that show us how close that particular instance was close to failure or a minimum a pattern formed that we can learn from & one we shouldn’t ignore ( imo ) in pursuit of excellence & consistent performance even if the critter died as it’s only a matter of time until one sees those results /patterns give us a problem that goes totally pear shape & sadly then you’ll get that individual to understand those patterns & see how it was all there to begin with but one that is often overlooked or worse dismissed even on total failures

I speak from experience of not listening in my early years

( go too around the 1hr 25 to 30 minute mark )

It’s why a few of us we’re against that 375 Barnes & one I applaud your decision to change out for a better choice & personally thankyou for that

Cheers

 

[David jr]

Gday davidjr
Here’s a bit that just showed up on what we were talking about re bullets not just killing

it’s one’s like this link below that show what has happened numerous times throughout many places that many people on the whole are pretty shielded from but once you talk to the ones who are on the ground a lot , one understands a little better of why a dead critter is not the be all & end all as it is often the less than ideal results that show us how close that particular instance was close to failure or a minimum a pattern formed that we can learn from & one we shouldn’t ignore ( imo ) in pursuit of excellence & consistent performance even if the critter died as it’s only a matter of time until one sees those results /patterns give us a problem that goes totally pear shape & sadly then you’ll get that individual to understand those patterns & see how it was all there to begin with but one that is often overlooked or worse dismissed even on total failures

I speak from experience of not listening in my early years

( go too around the 1hr 25 to 30 minute mark )

It’s why a few of us we’re against that 375 Barnes & one I applaud your decision to change out for a better choice & personally thankyou for that

Cheers

Hello Fordy
I thank you on the video attachment .
You have shot a lot of elephants and the 500 nitro a very good caliber for DG .

I do not like doubles.
I am a bolt gun shooter.
Yes the double gives a very quick second shot.
Then you are stuck with reloading and things can go very bad on a reload shown many times in current videos dropping shells missing the chambers having to look down to reload losing sight of the game and surroundings around you not good things to worry about at that time .

Did you mean to pull both barrels with two fingers or did the double fire two barrels with only one trigger pulled ?
Another reason I do not trust doubles for DG.

I have tried the 458 win mag and with CEB 13 450 GR SOLID it will do the job extremely well , But as you know I am walking another path and have found in early testing the 458 just will not do what is needed with a BIG HEAVY lead bullet .
I have changed to the 458 lott.
I an leaning to a 705 gr lead bullet an paper it will out preform the 500 nitro's both 3 and 3.25 inch
YES I SAID ON PAPER .
I am waiting on my two 458 lotts to be completed some time in August this year then the testing will began .

I have a lot of CEB 13 450 SOLIDS which will be my go to testing bullet to equal or beat . The bullet I am leaning toward is a 705 gr lead bullet at 30 BHN that will not shatter on impact and has enough mass to best the 500 nitros as far as Taylor knock out computes .

The 458 lott with a 705 gr bullet at 2150 fps will give 99.4 TKO and 7234.9 foot pounds

The 500 nitros factory loads with a 570gr at 2150 fps will give a TKO of 89.3 and 5849.49 foot pounds

Yes the .510 diameter does play into the pitcher and helps a little over the .458 , 459 diameters
the win 70 likes .458 bullets the CZ 550 I will need to fined what it needs may be all the way up to .461 diameter . this is the beauty with lead bullets you can go up or down in diameter for the barrel at hand .

I may fined I do not need the 2150 fps may be 2000 fps will do the job only testing can tell .
the win model 70 CRF 458 win mag could only do 1750 fps maxed out with the 705 gr lead bullet not fast enough.

The 375 and 416 Taylor I will be comparing against the CEB 13 458 SOLID

I am looking for the lead bullets in the 375 and 416 to make it through the front brain test media and see how far they go through 20% gel block which will be 20x10x10 if they make it through the gel block they will work well on a elephant frontal head shots .

Michael 458 I will be stacking the deck with the 705 gr bullet L.O.L.
I am not trying to be offensive.
Testing will tell and I will show all testing for all to see good or bad .

The 458 lott 705 gr bullet meplat is the same diameter as the CEB 13 458 450 gr solid