Cast Lead vs Monolithic Solids for Serious Work....................

David jr said:

I thank you Micheal458 for shooting the elephant in the ear and achieving pass through with the small 45/70 load gives me a lot more confidence in the 550 to 700 gr lead bullet in the Lott
for frontal head shot if needed .
David

Click to expand...

You are welcome David, but read closer, it did not pass completely through, it made it about 1 inch to the other side of the brain cavity..... on a side brain shot, I want that to exit to be honest, that is the easiest head shot. However, yes, the larger weight and if hard enough should do the job on the side shot. And for sure, if you get little or no distortion or material flow. Can you post the photo of the bullet you plan to cast? Going back I recall it looked a lot like the CEB Nose Profile.

Here are some of the new bullet moulds I have coming
I also have just started playing with the Saco 550 gr GC 458 bullet sized down to 452. and not heat treated , palmer coated GC added and modern bullet lube in a 450 bush master.
I extended the chamber lead on my Bergara 450 Bm and found AA 1680
will allow speeds up to 1700 fps with out pressure singes .ONLY FOR BOLT ACTIONS.
with this load I am getting pass through on wild bulls at all angels in the 2000 lbs range
distance /range 15 feet to 75 yards
FRIEND IS USING 458 WM Hunters Supply 520 gr FP at 1750 and achieving the same results
on wild bulls BULLET IS NOT HEAT TREATED ONLY PALMER COATED AND GC ADDED.
the 38 molds will be for the 375 H&H to duplicate the 300 and 350 gr copper bullets
View attachment 766692
The two lead bullets recovered 450 BM bullets 550 gc bullets 6 2 92 lead not heat treated out of my 50 yard sand / dirt berm both recovered bullets weights 530 grains .

Gday @David jr
Very interesting stuff that’s for sure & got a mate here that loves his cast stuff in handguns & rifles which I’m sure he will enjoy reading this so I’ll pass it on & one that I’m also interested in a few things that have caught my attention & one that I’m waiting on your results eagerly


Now I may have missed it so apologies in advance on these questions

@ what velocity impact do you start to see distortion of the meplat in the wet news paper & in critters ( if you catch them of course)

what’s the max velocity impact you’ve run them @

Does the brinell hardness lesson over time & if so what time frame does it revert back too & is this gradual or a sharp decline if it occurs

Cheers

Fordy said:

Gday @David jr
Very interesting stuff that’s for sure & got a mate here that loves his cast stuff in handguns & rifles which I’m sure he will enjoy reading this so I’ll pass it on & one that I’m also interested in a few things that have caught my attention & one that I’m waiting on your results eagerly


Now I may have missed it so apologies in advance on these questions

@ what velocity impact do you start to see distortion of the meplat in the wet news paper & in critters ( if you catch them of course)

what’s the max velocity impact you’ve run them @

Does the brinell hardness lesson over time & if so what time frame does it revert back too & is this gradual or a sharp decline if it occurs

Cheers

Click to expand...

Hello Fordy
Good to have these questions you are asking.

For quenched harden cast lead bullets changing back to standard lead aging IE 6 2 92
Water quenched bullets will take 2 weeks to harden to max BHN and will stay to the max BHN
for 12 months .

Lead is always trying to change back to just plain lead .
Yep I let the cat out of the bag and am telling the real facts on lead for every one to know.

Lead is always trying to change back to its original form LEAD now it may take 500
years for lead to change back to just plain lead, to many variables to give a exact date on lead changing back to lead .

Now on where lead bullet nose starts to to change shape this is very hard to predict a lead bullet will always change it's shape just as soon as the gun powder is lit and the bullet starts moving forward from the case.This is called OBTURATION to the bore .

A realistic answer to when a lead bullet nose starts to expand would be in a micro second when the bullet stars moving forward long before impact.

There has been a good deal of discussion on this in a lot of the Lyman reloading manuals over the years .

Another factor is rifle twist this plays a very big factor on bullet expanding as does the type of gun powder selected to push the bullet out of the barrel IE FAST MED OR SLOW single base or double base burning rate gun powder .

So I am not helping much on the Question when a lead bullet velocity for nose startings to expand but as you can see it is very hard to answer this question with out a lot more data to be given .

When I run the elephant head testing with several lead bullets I will shoot just 6 2 92 powder coated ,sized gas checked and modern bullet lube on the bullets.

Then I will run the same bullet but water quenched.

Test calibers will be 450 Bush master 458 win mag and 458 Lott.

Latter on I will run same test on 300 and 350 lead bullets in 375 H&H

I will run test at slow velocity probably in the 1700 FPS and high velocity which will change depending on which caliber is being tested and bullet weight being used.

Good news I have the 450 bush master and have borrowed a friends 458 win mag to start this testing .
I am waiting on my model 70 being converted to 458 lott and my new CZ 550 having a bunch of modes being don to this rifle may be in my hands in next 30 days .

I did just receive all the test bullet moulds yesterday so to day I will start breaking in new moulds
and start CASTING a lot of test bullets .

I love R&D work keeps my brain going .
Davidjr

Gday Davidjr

David jr said:

Hello Fordy
Good to have these questions you are asking.

For quenched harden cast lead bullets changing back to standard lead aging IE 6 2 92
Water quenched bullets will take 2 weeks to harden to max BHN and will stay to the max BHN
for 12 months .

Lead is always trying to change back to just plain lead .
Yep I let the cat out of the bag and am telling the real facts on lead for every one to know.

Lead is always trying to change back to its original form LEAD now it may take 500
years for lead to change back to just plain lead, to many variables to give a exact date on lead changing back to lead .

Now on where lead bullet nose starts to to change shape this is very hard to predict a lead bullet will always change it's shape just as soon as the gun powder is lit and the bullet starts moving forward from the case.This is called OBTURATION to the bore .

A realistic answer to when a lead bullet nose starts to expand would be in a micro second when the bullet stars moving forward long before impact.

There has been a good deal of discussion on this in a lot of the Lyman reloading manuals over the years .

Another factor is rifle twist this plays a very big factor on bullet expanding as does the type of gun powder selected to push the bullet out of the barrel IE FAST MED OR SLOW single base or double base burning rate gun powder .

So I am not helping much on the Question when a lead bullet velocity for nose startings to expand but as you can see it is very hard to answer this question with out a lot more data to be given .

When I run the elephant head testing with several lead bullets I will shoot just 6 2 92 powder coated ,sized gas checked and modern bullet lube on the bullets.

Then I will run the same bullet but water quenched.

Test calibers will be 450 Bush master 458 win mag and 458 Lott.

Latter on I will run same test on 300 and 350 lead bullets in 375 H&H

I will run test at slow velocity probably in the 1700 FPS and high velocity which will change depending on which caliber is being tested and bullet weight being used.

Good news I have the 450 bush master and have borrowed a friends 458 win mag to start this testing .
I am waiting on my model 70 being converted to 458 lott and my new CZ 550 having a bunch of modes being don to this rifle may be in my hands in next 30 days .

I did just receive all the test bullet moulds yesterday so to day I will start breaking in new moulds
and start CASTING a lot of test bullets .

I love R&D work keeps my brain going .
Davidjr

Click to expand...

Heads up shhhh on the rat caliber as Michaels not a fan of those but I love ‘em so bring the results on like last week as I’m sure he missed a good 375 ribbing that week , only joking you keep that brain busy sir

looking forward to this & my mate who uses a lot of cast bullets has been trying to get me to use for years so I May surprise a few yet & give them a whirl once you get all the information together ( assuming they will be available for purchase? ) & I’ll just assign one of my 375 for it as I see some merits especially for a new hunter chasing deer wallaby & rabbits etc to develop good muscle memory before moving up to bigger critters

You answered my questions pretty well thankyou & one I’ll have some more no doubt as your journey is shared with us

Thanks for a little bit of a clear my head moment on this subject & one I look forward to more
Cheers

Fordy said:

Heads up shhhh on the rat caliber as Michaels not a fan of those but I love ‘em so bring the results on like last week as I’m sure he missed a good 375 ribbing

Click to expand...

Yeah, you can leave that 375 crap to the monkeys shooting rats and such............ we want real data on real calibers, .458 +............ we are after the heavies, no place for a 375 to visit. Keep it for rats, but not those big wharf rats, just normal smaller rats...... LOL

David jr said:

and have borrowed a friends 458 win mag to start this testing .

Click to expand...

David jr said:

did just receive all the test bullet moulds yesterday so to day I will start breaking in new moulds
and start CASTING a lot of test bullets .

Click to expand...

Now that is great news, I was dreading having to wait a MONTH............... Better lay in some copy paper too, gonna need a pile of it. HEH.................The 458 Winchester is a great start, and will most likely tell us all we need to know........... Excellent news.

Oh and BTW David, I do indeed have a supply of Hunter Supply bullets for 45 ACP............... Thanks for a great product.

Michael

Gday Michael

michael458 said:

Yeah, you can leave that 375 crap to the monkeys shooting rats and such............ we want real data on real calibers, .458 +............ we are after the heavies, no place for a 375 to visit. Keep it for rats, but not those big wharf rats, just normal smaller rats...... LOL

Click to expand...

Now I feel better I’ve had my fix for the week of your secret love affair with the rat caliber lol
Don’t worry its safe with us ha ha
Cheers mate

Hello all.
I have been casting a lot of bullets for testing 458 win mag and 375 H&H
have to wait on my 458 Lott for now.

I might add the 416 Taylor in these test for you 416 shooters .

Now I have to get them shooting before the tests can be conducted .

Any one in North New Mexico that wants to shoot a lot of test ammo come on by.

I have had both shoulders rebuilt but I have to do it OUCH L.O.L.
LOVE R&D , every day on the range is a good day .

The Cutting edge 450 solid is the control bullet .

One of these bullet will have to equal the cutting edge bullet .

Yes this is a very big task to achieve with a lead bullet .

These first string of testing will be with standard 6-2-92 commercial casting lead 15 BHN air cooled
Palmer coated gas checked and modern smokeless bullet lube .

All bullets will be sized to .458 diameter , Rem LRP primer, WW 458 brass .
I have found AA 2230 is the best in the 458 WM.

Which lead bullet shines the best , I will then cast in a 20 BHN and 30 BHN
and test the winning bullet.

With three different BHN it will be interesting on what really works the best .


For the 375 bullets will be Barnes 300 tsx for control bullet .

All bullets will be sized .377 has always worked the best in all of my 375’s

The 375 is a great caliber and can be shot by just about every one.

I will use AA 4350 WW case Rem LRM primer
This powder has always worked well in the 375

All bullet weights is a average weight for 5 bullets each with a gas check on the scales .

Gday @David jr
Great stuff above

Great choice on the 458 pill as for consistency that pill design has proven to be extremely consistent
The 375 that’s not one that imo is a fair comparison as your cast should be more consistent than that & a expanding design against a solid design is not fair imo & a easy way to look @ this from my perspective is just look @ failures on ea
Unless I push the ceb #13 to fast you just don’t get failures
Now the Barnes it depends on what it impacts first as to ultimately if it will work or not & also why you see the knowledgeable ones not recommended Barnes for elephant & this is what is being compared here right ?

Now a Barnes will kill just as even a 22lr has proven be able to do but this imo is not just about killing it’s one that needs to be done without the utmost attention & not get into just a dead critter is all that matters

I’m sorry to come across however this sounds but I’m strong on this from my old ph mate ( retired now ) having his ankle broken from a clients using a inferior bullet that he dispatched close but it’s trunk got him on its collapse that happened to be a Barnes the client used now that was in the early 2000’s & one that yes Barnes have changed since then but rest assured they still fail @ a higher rate than the ceb#13 that’s a fact

I don’t say this from a textbook position this is from field results on a lot of bovine’s which I’ve shot both into

Jm2cw on that take that for what it’s worth Lastly is it lossless to measure the meplats of those pills & I have found an ink pad an easy way but you may have a better one ?

Cheers

Fordy said:

Gday @David jr
Great stuff above

Great choice on the 458 pill as for consistency that pill design has proven to be extremely consistent
The 375 that’s not one that imo is a fair comparison as your cast should be more consistent than that & a expanding design against a solid design is not fair imo & a easy way to look @ this from my perspective is just look @ failures on ea
Unless I push the ceb #13 to fast you just don’t get failures
Now the Barnes it depends on what it impacts first as to ultimately if it will work or not & also why you see the knowledgeable ones not recommended Barnes for elephant & this is what is being compared here right ?

Now a Barnes will kill just as even a 22lr has proven be able to do but this imo is not just about killing it’s one that needs to be done without the utmost attention & not get into just a dead critter is all that matters

I’m sorry to come across however this sounds but I’m strong on this from my old ph mate ( retired now ) having his ankle broken from a clients using a inferior bullet that he dispatched close but it’s trunk got him on its collapse that happened to be a Barnes the client used now that was in the early 2000’s & one that yes Barnes have changed since then but rest assured they still fail @ a higher rate than the ceb#13 that’s a fact

I don’t say this from a textbook position this is from field results on a lot of bovine’s which I’ve shot both into

Jm2cw on that take that for what it’s worth Lastly is it lossless to measure the meplats of those pills & I have found an ink pad an easy way but you may have a better one ?

Cheers

Click to expand...

Hello Fordy and everyone else

Yes the testing is mainly for front head shots on big bull elephants .
This will be my first animal on my safari.

In the 458 win mag probably all the chosen lead bullets will work very well, they are caring enough weight to get the job done at 458 win mag velositys .

With that being stated ,I am leaning toward the last three in the line up for the 458 Lott cant go wrong with a very big heavy chunk of lead traveling along at 1750 to 2200 fps may be faster have to have rifle in my hand to see where it will be the best velocity? may be all the way up to 2300 2400 fps .
This is why I switched to the 458 Lott the 458 win mag just cant shoot the bigger bullets fast enough about 1700 fps is where the 458 win mag stops shooting bullets over 550 grains accurately

Now for the 375 I have chosen to use the 300 gr barnes tsx .
This bullet is being used on all animals in Africa and around the world including elephant with front head shot .
Yes elephant are being taken with hand guns including 500S&W and many other calibers .
and these hand guns are no where close to equaling the 375 H&H .
The poachers round of choice the tiny 7.62x39 123 gr coped and core FMJ bullet at 2300 fps
has accounted for many many elephant and rhino over the years TO MANY !

No the 375 barnes tsx would not be my choice for elephant or rhino , yes I would use the barnes 300 tsx 375 on every thing from the tiny 10 up to hippo and Buffalo and never think about it.

But that Brings me back full circle , to it is to easy to take all game in the world with modern solids and expanding bullets today .
If you know your rifle or hand gun and bullet, it is just point and shoot without thinking about the shot out to 300 yards for most experanced shooters today.

When you put in the time and shoot your rifle , handgun , a lot you will be ready for what ever the shot is presented .
IE reloading and shooting a lot of lead bullets very cheep compared to solids and expanding bullets today.

Now there are some hunters today go to the store - gun club buy xyz rifle and xyzzy optic and xyzzy ammo
shoot may be 10 rounds or less ! and show up in hunting camp ready to take on the dangerous 7 .

ALL I can is I take my hat off to all you guides and PH'S out there that have to make a living with these clients .
enough rambling sorry.

Heading to the test range have a great day
Davidjr

David jr said:

The poachers round of choice the tiny 7.62x39 123 gr coped and core FMJ bullet at 2300 fps
has accounted for many many elephant and rhino over the years TO MANY !

Click to expand...

I don't think choice has much to do with it, more of like its all they have on hand......... and it really does not work out all that well. This was recovered from an elephant I took some years ago.

David jr said:

Now for the 375 I have chosen to use the 300 gr barnes tsx .
This bullet is being used on all animals in Africa and around the world including elephant with front head shot

Click to expand...

Do you mean a Barnes Solid? Surely not a "TSX" expanding copper bullet? Fine for rats and such, but not much else..........

David jr said:

shooting a lot of lead bullets very cheep compared to solids and expanding bullets today

Click to expand...

Without a doubt most likely, especially not including time spent........ However, for my part, I will will stick to proven tools. Normally I order bulk, but all they had on this order was boxed, I had to unbox them for proper storage........



Look forward to the Range Report.................

David jr said:

Hello all.
I have been casting a lot of bullets for testing 458 win mag and 375 H&H
have to wait on my 458 Lott for now.

I might add the 416 Taylor in these test for you 416 shooters .

Now I have to get them shooting before the tests can be conducted .

Any one in North New Mexico that wants to shoot a lot of test ammo come on by.

I have had both shoulders rebuilt but I have to do it OUCH L.O.L.
LOVE R&D , every day on the range is a good day .

The Cutting edge 450 solid is the control bullet .

One of these bullet will have to equal the cutting edge bullet .

Yes this is a very big task to achieve with a lead bullet .

These first string of testing will be with standard 6-2-92 commercial casting lead 15 BHN air cooled
Palmer coated gas checked and modern smokeless bullet lube .

All bullets will be sized to .458 diameter , Rem LRP primer, WW 458 brass .
I have found AA 2230 is the best in the 458 WM.

Which lead bullet shines the best , I will then cast in a 20 BHN and 30 BHN
and test the winning bullet.

With three different BHN it will be interesting on what really works the best .


For the 375 bullets will be Barnes 300 tsx for control bullet .

All bullets will be sized .377 has always worked the best in all of my 375’s

The 375 is a great caliber and can be shot by just about every one.

I will use AA 4350 WW case Rem LRM primer
This powder has always worked well in the 375

All bullet weights is a average weight for 5 bullets each with a gas check on the scales .

View attachment 767501View attachment 767509

Click to expand...

Looking forward to the results of your testing project.

David jr,
Your coaching on bullet casting was good.
I do practically same as you by using:

Lawrence Brand Magnum Shot + 50:50 Pb/Sn solder
for a "92:5:2:1" alloy that I call "BHN25."
PC-paint, gas check and +/- further lube, usually not desirable.

However, I am troubled by you recommending sizing bullets to .458" unless you are shooting them in a .456"-grooved .45-70.

For a .458"-.459"-grooved barrel, as most .458 WIN MAG and .458 Lott rifles are, 0.460" to 0.461" is the proper sizing, for best results all around,
in any regard.

A .458 Lott throat will not accept a proper bullet sizing past the 2.800" length at case mouth.
The .458 WIN MAG throat will do so to a much longer length of Cartridge Overall Length than is possible in a .458 Lott

You do not realize that the .458 Lott throat is so short and tight ?

Do not wait for the SAAMI .458 Lott-O-BS when you can do better with the SAAMI .458 WIN MAG.

Gday Davidjr

David jr said:

Hello Fordy and everyone else

Yes the testing is mainly for front head shots on big bull elephants .
This will be my first animal on my safari.

In the 458 win mag probably all the chosen lead bullets will work very well, they are caring enough weight to get the job done at 458 win mag velositys .

With that being stated ,I am leaning toward the last three in the line up for the 458 Lott cant go wrong with a very big heavy chunk of lead traveling along at 1750 to 2200 fps may be faster have to have rifle in my hand to see where it will be the best velocity? may be all the way up to 2300 2400 fps .
This is why I switched to the 458 Lott the 458 win mag just cant shoot the bigger bullets fast enough about 1700 fps is where the 458 win mag stops shooting bullets over 550 grains accurately

Now for the 375 I have chosen to use the 300 gr barnes tsx .
This bullet is being used on all animals in Africa and around the world including elephant with front head shot .
Yes elephant are being taken with hand guns including 500S&W and many other calibers .
and these hand guns are no where close to equaling the 375 H&H .
The poachers round of choice the tiny 7.62x39 123 gr coped and core FMJ bullet at 2300 fps
has accounted for many many elephant and rhino over the years TO MANY !

No the 375 barnes tsx would not be my choice for elephant or rhino , yes I would use the barnes 300 tsx 375 on every thing from the tiny 10 up to hippo and Buffalo and never think about it.

But that Brings me back full circle , to it is to easy to take all game in the world with modern solids and expanding bullets today .
If you know your rifle or hand gun and bullet, it is just point and shoot without thinking about the shot out to 300 yards for most experanced shooters today.

When you put in the time and shoot your rifle , handgun , a lot you will be ready for what ever the shot is presented .
IE reloading and shooting a lot of lead bullets very cheep compared to solids and expanding bullets today.

Now there are some hunters today go to the store - gun club buy xyz rifle and xyzzy optic and xyzzy ammo
shoot may be 10 rounds or less ! and show up in hunting camp ready to take on the dangerous 7 .

ALL I can is I take my hat off to all you guides and PH'S out there that have to make a living with these clients .
enough rambling sorry.

Heading to the test range have a great day
Davidjr

Click to expand...

Still trying to put above together & one that I may just be reading this wrong or interpretation @ a minimum so happily discuss if I’ve got it wrong & apologies in advance if that is so

Anyway moving on to how I’ve basically read that above & many times I have but just don’t get it .

From my position I’ve seen many variables on what people will accept as a good outcome in the taking of a critter for which can come with a heated discussion no doubt so I’ve learned to be completely be upfront on what I’ll accept so here’s my cards on the table for all to see as I don’t get the above of yours ( maybe my interpretation once again for which I’ll apologise if needed but stand firm if my interpretation is correct)


Now this crap of been heaps killed with this caliber /bulletthat bullet is absolutely CRAZY thinking ,
it’s what we don’t see that actually COUNTS !!!!
Here’s a snapshot of what counts to me & when you use a metal detector to help & dig in rotting critters like these to try find out why something didn’t work so that one in my case doesn’t want to go that route again ( actually I test for these again & again & autopsy repeatably when it is found to see if I can replicate & you also see patterns of that particular style of pill that is also great in understanding a design weakness ) well I don’t accept that & definitely don’t want to go that route again on a hunt let alone a hunt of a lifetime

The 7.62 x39 we used to buy pallets of these to put through our skk’s on high number culls which 500/1000 critter days weren’t uncommon but to then say it’s ok because 10’s of thousands upon thousands more were killed it’s ok to use this stuff hmmm

Come on man I’m not swallowing that total BS or PFR , as i will call that shit out as it’s not just on getting a dead critter it’s doing it consistently & how & what is needed to achieve/accomplish that consistency .
I’ll happily discuss & even learn more as we go no doubt but if this is about just a dead critter I’m not going to swallow it that’s for sure

Side note Im not going to be in phone reception much for next 9 days so please don’t think my absence is a sign of he’s given up or consenting to your thoughts on it will do the job so all good , ABSOLUTELY NOT as it needs to do it’s job ALL THE TIME !!!!
Cheers

Regarding deformation... I have used the brass solids on buffalo twice, as well as a couple of zebra, a warthog, and a black wildebeest.

On my second buffalo - a broadside, running shot at 35-40ish yards - the bullet mushroomed just a bit. Not a lot, but noticeable. This was a 325 grain brass solid from a .45-70. The bullet was found under the skin on the far side. Not that I am complaining: it died very, very quickly.

Tundra Tiger said:

Regarding deformation... I have used the brass solids on buffalo twice, as well as a couple of zebra, a warthog, and a black wildebeest.

On my second buffalo - a broadside, running shot at 35-40ish yards - the bullet mushroomed just a bit. Not a lot, but noticeable. This was a 325 grain brass solid from a .45-70. The bullet was found under the skin on the far side. Not that I am complaining: it died very, very quickly.

Click to expand...

I have had the same thing on rare occasion myself. These happened with my 50 B&M Alaskan on hippo and buffalo that year, both of the distorted bullets came in contact with heavy bone, these bullets out of the hippo you see the bullet on the far left the nose is shorter, the other two not;



This one out of a buffalo



This one also contacted quite a bit of bone along its path through the skull of a buffalo to the rear.





So yes in some scenarios, especially if any bone is contacted even brass can flow and move. Which really brings to question, "What if these had been Lead?"........... how would they look, and would they have been able to accomplish the mission?

That is what we are hear to discuss and ponder about, and hopefully @David jr can shed some light on the darkness..................

michael458 said:

I have had the same thing on rare occasion myself. These happened with my 50 B&M Alaskan on hippo and buffalo that year, both of the distorted bullets came in contact with heavy bone, these bullets out of the hippo you see the bullet on the far left the nose is shorter, the other two not;

This one out of a buffalo

This one also contacted quite a bit of bone along its path through the skull of a buffalo to the rear.

So yes in some scenarios, especially if any bone is contacted even brass can flow and move. Which really brings to question, "What if these had been Lead?"........... how would they look, and would they have been able to accomplish the mission?

That is what we are hear to discuss and ponder about, and hopefully @David jr can shed some light on the darkness..................

Click to expand...

This is the hole reason I like brass not copper ! Its harder.

Even free-machining brass like CEB solids are made from will start to bulge the nose on water impact at 2800 fps.
The only way a cast lead bullet can compete with the CEB 450-gr/.458 impacting at 2400 fps
will be with hardest alloy possible and heavier weight at lower velocity.
Should be a very interesting test against an "elephant skull" bullet trap,
that must be artificial for consistency and unlimited repeatability.

Again, I say, the SAAMI-chambered .458 WIN MAG with its usual throat
can outrun the SAAMI-chambered .458 Lott with essentially no throat capable of handling a .460"-.461" diameter bullet that is optimum in .458"-459" rifling grooves.
You will only have skinnier ogive ahead of the .458 Lott case mouth,
while full diameter bullet fits in the .458 WIN MAG throat for a little way.
You might have to slow the .458 WIN MAG load to less than the maximum it is capable of to maintain bullet integrity with cast bullets.

Consider this bullet (SAECO #020) cast in BHN25 with gas check and Harbor Freight Red PC paint, a sample of one for each bullet of the three below, two Hornady, one cast:




Above you see the SAECO #020 in the .458 Lott with a 0.461" band ahead of case mouth at 3.500" COL. This will not even chamber in the .458 Lott.
You will have to seat it shorter than the 3.475" COL seen in the .458 WIN MAG to even get the bullet to chamber in the .458 Lott.

Average cast bullet weight was 543-gr for the powder comparison below,
with SAECO #020 (too much PC paint on the 544-grainer sample of one):



AA-2230 is practically the same powder as AA-2460.
AA-2230 just has about half of its balls flattened so it occupies less case capacity, it is "pre-compressed," and it burns just a little faster because the surface area of the powder is greater, more access to the ignition "flame."

Here is an ideal bullet for the .458 WIN MAG:



You would have to do partial nose sizing and still have to seat some of the leading band below the case mouth to even be able to chamber this bullet in the SAAMI .458 Lott.
Re-chamber that .458 Lott with some .458 WIN MAG throat and you will have a ".458 Lott Improved" that will handle that bullet, but COL will be 3.640", exceeding SAAMI .458 Lott COL.
In the .458 WIN MAG it is capable of bugholing at 100 yards, if you find the velocity/accuracy node for your rifle.

Slower will be better for penetration if the nose expands on impact.



All three of the below projectiles impacted water at 2200 fps,
the brass FN (330-gr/.395-caliber) did not expand the nose at all ...


All of my cast bullet work with the .458 Points to 2200 fps being the optimum limit for MV for accuracy, but I have not done any tests with BHN25 bullets for penetration in any sort of test media.
I always figured they would expand to lesser degree than the Lyman #2,
and serve as "soft nose" expanding bullets, not solids for elephant hunting.
I have pounded a few with a sledge hammer on an anvil, and none ever fractured. They just got shorter and wider, BHN25.

So, I am very interested in any work with them in the role of a solid.

I repeat. You can do more with a SAAMI .458 WIN MAG than you can do with a SAAMI .458 Lott.
Might need to keep the governor on the .458 WIN MAG so as not to go too fast.

Best use for a SAAMI .458 Lott:
Pointy 300-gr bullets with only ogive ahead of case mouth,
or shotshell loads for a rat killin' Hanta Virus Safari.

The heavier the bullet, the more it is going to expand the nose at any given velocity, sectional density drives expansion.
Maybe a 750-gr/.458 slowed down to 1500 fps would be the optimum hardcast for elephant penetration ?
BHN25 or heat treated to BHN35 ?
And how long would the BHN35 stay that hard ? One month ?
How long does the water-dropped BHN25 stay that hard ?
Two years or forever ?
My PC-painted BHN25 softens to about BHN 21-22 but hardens back to BHN25 in two weeks.