405 gr Hard Cast vs 300 gr TSX

I know y'alls view on the 45-70 as a buffalo gun (puny American cartridge), but what would your bullet choices be if you were to take one into battle with a Buff?

Would the 405 Hard Cast Solids do the deed or would you opt for the Barnes TSX?

Looking at both bullets from DoubleTap and curious on y'alls expert opinions. I'm just a bullet slinger from the hills of Tennessee.

The 45-70 is absolutely fine for buffalo.

I used 325 grain Cutting Edge brass solids. I cannot comment on the 2 you propose.

I’ve used 405g hard cast right around 18 Brinnel Hardness for the last 15 years ( I know I’m still a rookie ) and it’s worked fine on big bears , hogs and a bison.

Ran mine at 1600 fps for a “medium” range load in my marlins and never a problem.

Those 300g tsx running 2000 fps do a number but with shot placement both the hard cast and tsx will usually exit.
405g Hard cast is much cheaper and allows for much more shooting, plus who doesn’t like to go Pumpkin Chunkin

19_A_CPT said:

I know y'alls view on the 45-70 as a buffalo gun (puny American cartridge), but what would your bullet choices be if you were to take one into battle with a Buff?

Would the 405 Hard Cast Solids do the deed or would you opt for the Barnes TSX?

Looking at both bullets from DoubleTap and curious on y'alls expert opinions. I'm just a bullet slinger from the hills of Tennessee.

Click to expand...

@19_A_CPT
If'n it was me I would opt for a 450-500gn hardcast with a nice big flat meplat.
You may loose a bit in speed but in a Ruger no1 1,600-1,700 would be possible.
That big heavy slow moving bullet and big flat meplat sound drive straight and deep.
But what do I know, I'd be crazy enough to tackle buffalo with my whet and a 310gn at 2,455fps.
Bob

Bob Nelson 35Whelen said:

@19_A_CPT
If'n it was me I would opt for a 450-500gn hardcast with a nice big flat meplat.
You may loose a bit in speed but in a Ruger no1 1,600-1,700 would be possible.
That big heavy slow moving bullet and big flat meplat sound drive straight and deep.
But what do I know, I'd be crazy enough to tackle buffalo with my whet and a 310gn at 2,455fps.
Bob

Click to expand...

If allowed to use the Whelen in that configuration I would do it too bob

19_A_CPT said:

what would your bullet choices be if you were to take one into battle with a Buff?

Would the 405 Hard Cast Solids do the deed or would you opt for the Barnes TSX?

Click to expand...

Today.... It would not be any of those that is for sure. Hard Cast of any kind will distort, shear, and change shape, and not with any sort of consistency. The 300 Barnes designed for 45/70, and at 1900 fps or so, just does not have enough reliable penetration for buffalo....... Buffalo are far different than other critters, even bison, of which I have taken both and taken both with 45/70!

24 years ago we did not have the bullet tech we have today, and especially in 45/70. 45/70 is limited in many ways, some related to the platform and pressures needed to run buffalo velocity. 45/70 in a lever gun comes up short on this, but if you use proper bullet tech, you can do rather well with the 45/70.

I took this buffalo 24 years ago, using the best we had at that time, which was a Cast Performance bullet. I found it coming up short in many ways with buffalo. I had the first round glance on a shoulder, and the second round found home, I got lucky.







Test work confirmed that cast bullets were a poor choice, I like a minimum of 18 inches penetration in the test work to be buffalo capable....... as you see, these are no where close. Other cast bullets tested were inconsistent and were poor performers as well......... With Buffalo.....Penetration is everything, and everything else is secondary, double that when talking about a cartridge similar to 45/70.



300 BarnesX just does not have enough penetration to be reliable on buffalo

Tundra Tiger said:

I used 325 grain Cutting Edge brass solids.

Click to expand...

Absolutely YES @Tundra Tiger ................ The big 67% meplat of the solid brass #13 Solids were designed specifically for the 45/70. Along with the 400 #13 Solids as well, I know, I called for their design, simply because I had problems in years past with proper bullets for 45/70 to do heavy lifting. These bullets will give you all the penetration you need from any reasonable angle, they will crunch bone when required and keep on going. I wish I would have had these 24 years ago for 45/70 buffalo. I had a fellow a few years ago that wanted to use his Marlin 45/70 for buffalo, I loaded the 400 gr CEB #13 Lever Gun Solids for him at 1850 fps, he was successful, one heart shot, bull went 30 steps and was down for the count.......... over and done.







There is a matching Raptor to the 400 Solid, however for buffalo, I would go all Solids in 45/70.

There is one semi expanding bullet that I would consider for buffalo, then back up with solids of course, and that is the North Fork Expanding CPS...... These have the penetration needed for buffalo. There is a 325 gr and a 350 gr Expanding CPS







There is another bullet that I might throw in the short list of buffalo capable bullets in 45/70 and that would be a 325 gr Lehigh Extreme .... I have not tested in 45/70, but in other cartridges they meet my requirements for penetration, and you get an added tissue destruction factor on top of that as well.........






If you choose your Bullet Tech properly, and it is not a long list, then you can be successful.

If Cape buffalo was the target and 45-70 was the caliber like the others have said those solids work.
I would opt to use the North Forks SS and CPS as they shoot amazing and are just top notch performance.

Limited to factory loads and I can’t do +P.

I commend @michael458 for that amazing write up.

19_A_CPT said:

Limited to factory loads and I can’t do +P.

I commend @michael458 for that amazing write up.

Click to expand...

If you are running a Marlin you need to keep pressures to 45000 PSI ........... If it is less than a Marlin, you need to rethink the scenario.

Limited to factory ammo...... you are screwed...... Get a Custom Hand Loader, such as Superior Ammunition to Custom Load your ammo with the bullets given above.

michael458 said:

Today.... It would not be any of those that is for sure. Hard Cast of any kind will distort, shear, and change shape, and not with any sort of consistency. The 300 Barnes designed for 45/70, and at 1900 fps or so, just does not have enough reliable penetration for buffalo....... Buffalo are far different than other critters, even bison, of which I have taken both and taken both with 45/70!

24 years ago we did not have the bullet tech we have today, and especially in 45/70. 45/70 is limited in many ways, some related to the platform and pressures needed to run buffalo velocity. 45/70 in a lever gun comes up short on this, but if you use proper bullet tech, you can do rather well with the 45/70.

I took this buffalo 24 years ago, using the best we had at that time, which was a Cast Performance bullet. I found it coming up short in many ways with buffalo. I had the first round glance on a shoulder, and the second round found home, I got lucky.

Test work confirmed that cast bullets were a poor choice, I like a minimum of 18 inches penetration in the test work to be buffalo capable....... as you see, these are no where close. Other cast bullets tested were inconsistent and were poor performers as well......... With Buffalo.....Penetration is everything, and everything else is secondary, double that when talking about a cartridge similar to 45/70.

300 BarnesX just does not have enough penetration to be reliable on buffalo

Absolutely YES @Tundra Tiger ................ The big 67% meplat of the solid brass #13 Solids were designed specifically for the 45/70. Along with the 400 #13 Solids as well, I know, I called for their design, simply because I had problems in years past with proper bullets for 45/70 to do heavy lifting. These bullets will give you all the penetration you need from any reasonable angle, they will crunch bone when required and keep on going. I wish I would have had these 24 years ago for 45/70 buffalo. I had a fellow a few years ago that wanted to use his Marlin 45/70 for buffalo, I loaded the 400 gr CEB #13 Lever Gun Solids for him at 1850 fps, he was successful, one heart shot, bull went 30 steps and was down for the count.......... over and done.

There is a matching Raptor to the 400 Solid, however for buffalo, I would go all Solids in 45/70.

There is one semi expanding bullet that I would consider for buffalo, then back up with solids of course, and that is the North Fork Expanding CPS...... These have the penetration needed for buffalo. There is a 325 gr and a 350 gr Expanding CPS

There is another bullet that I might throw in the short list of buffalo capable bullets in 45/70 and that would be a 325 gr Lehigh Extreme .... I have not tested in 45/70, but in other cartridges they meet my requirements for penetration, and you get an added tissue destruction factor on top of that as well.........

If you choose your Bullet Tech properly, and it is not a long list, then you can be successful.

Click to expand...

Buffalo of a lifetime right there

michael458 said:

If you are running a Marlin you need to keep pressures to 45000 PSI ........... If it is less than a Marlin, you need to rethink the scenario.

Limited to factory ammo...... you are screwed...... Get a Custom Hand Loader, such as Superior Ammunition to Custom Load your ammo with the bullets given above.

Click to expand...

Knew the conversation would shift to that lol.

For a Buff with a .45-70, I'd run the 405gr Hard Cast Solid from DoubleTap.

who've done it and similar loads lean hard on heavy flat nose hardcasts for reliable straight penetration through bone, shoulder, and vitals on Cape buffalo. They punch deep and create a good crush channel without worrying about expansion failing at those slower velocities.

The Barnes TSX 300gr class expands great, retains weight, and has taken buff, but some reports note it can under penetrate compared to a proper heavy solid when angles get bad or you hit heavy bone.

If it's a close, controlled hunt with good placement, either will do the deed. But for battle reliability, the 405 hardcast is the safer pick. Shoot what your rifle loves.

My unsolicited non-Buffalo hunting 2 cents.

Most cast bullets that begin with a fine looking flat nose / meplat are not going to retain that look or function of, after meeting heavy bone.
The more velocity, the less likely. Maybe, they work good-enough some or most of the times. But, far from the best compared to copper or brass.

I also believe they is a greater possibility of deviations from the raw materials to finished bullet with lead alloy bullets than with copper or brass.

I am not anti cast. I load and shoot big fat flat nose cast bullets. I am of the belief they are fine nearly-100% of the time for native North American game animals, under most circumstances. For the potential of the remainder of that 100% and other circumstances, I would prefer copper or brass. I would consider a close range Cape Buffalo a copper and or brass 45-70 choice.

I would add the 380 grain copper Lehigh WFN to the 45-70 North Fork and Cutting Edge Bullet choices for large and potentially hostile game. It might lag a little in penetration in regards to the brass CEB. But, most likely superior to any heavy weight cast bullet.

These folks produce some uncommon 45-70 factory loads.

My first awareness of this smaller company. But apparently they have been around awhile. This 45-70 load seems like a good one with what I assume is the 325 grain CEB Lever Gun Solid bullet.