Red Dot on Win M70 - Iron Sight Cowitness

I've purchased this RMR mount for a M70 Safari Express in 458 win mag. I was wondering if anyone here runs this same mount and with which optic? I'm curious is the iron sights can still be used by looking through the bottom of the optic or not without removing the optic. The reason I want this on a DG rifle is in case the dot dies, breaks, etc you are immediately able to use your irons in an emergency without having to remove anything. Even a QD mount doesn't help you if your dot somehow dies on the first shot.

I've narrowed my choices down to these 3 optics

1. Holosun 509T - I own these and they are fantastic. Downside is they sit a bit higher due to the adapter plate.
1. Trijicon RCR - This would likely sit the lowest of the 3 giving me the best chance. It is robust and use friendly, but it has a 3.25MOA dot which is a bit on the larger end. That's a 1.6" dot at 50 yards which is probably the average engagement distance for this rifle.
3. Holosun EPS - Sits a bit lower than the 509T, but probably equal to or a bit higher than the RCR because it needs to utilize the included RMR to Holosun K footprint. People claim these have fantastic glass but the sample I had (early manufacture date) had pretty awful fishbowl effect. It also has 1.5MOA clicks which is a bit much for a rifle optic. Would prefer 1MOA or even less.

If you have any experience with this rifle and optics mount I'd love to know as theres NOTHING online anywhere about it. I will post my findings with what I decide as well so people can be informed in case they wanted to try something similar.

I like the Trijicon RMR. I would not want a dot smaller than 3 MOA for DG. The bigger the dot, the faster you pick it up.
If you have good eye-sight and red dots look sharp and round then you should be able to shoot groups smaller than the dot.
If your eye-sight makes the dot look more irregular you can still probable shoot 4 MOA which should be plenty for Buffalo.

I have no experience with co-witness on a bolt gun but I suspect it would require tall custom sights and maybe custom mount too. You might talk to New England Custom Gun about your idea.

Here are a couple threads on this subject,

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/red-dot-rmr-sights-for-dangerous-game-rifles.73440/

https://www.africahunting.com/threa...ower-variable-scope-or-metallic-sights.80277/

Buy a Trijicon, replace the battery before your hunt and don’t worry about that reflex sight failing.

My open face SRO has withstood two dangerous game hunts and sighted me for multiple kills on plains game out to 150 yards with my trusty Heym in .458 Win. I’ve shot this SRO on my .458 for over 500 recorded shots. My confidence remains such that this SRO will remain mounted on my Heym double when stalking close to elephant heard searching for a tuskless this year.













On a magazine rifle I prefer a low power variable optic with illuminated reticle such as Nightforce NXS 1-4 or their NX8 1-8. I also own Leupold 1-6x optics but if I had to bet my life on this equipment, Nightforce for LPVO, Trijicon for reflex sights.

Also please know, if you don't put a dangerous game animal down or seriously degrade it's ability to charge or run away on your first shot, your PH will unless otherwise directed, open fire.

For carrying a bolt action 10 miles a day in 100 degree heat following elephant, a small reflex sight makes perfect sense. As I shift my carry from slinged over should to shoulder, to a safe African carry (muzzle not pointing at anyone), the scope bites into my neck. Not so with a significantly smaller reflex!

For risk mitigation with a modern Model 70 Classic one should consider;

• Magazine springs fail. Replace with a vintage M98 spring.
• Extractors fail. Have a competent gunsmith replace with a Pre-64 or P14/17 extractor.
• Strikers have failed. Not common but the newer strikers have broken.

There are threads on AH concering current M70 Classic failures. A recent one provided the link to Desert Outdoors video devoted to upgrading to prevent failures in the field.

I have upgraded the magazine spring and extractor on my custom M70 Classic .416 Rem. I should consider replacing the extractor to make this rifle as bulletproof as my Pre-64 Model 70’s.

When are you hunting Africa with your new rig?

Awesome rifles and pictures! Thanks for sharing that! I forgot to mention it is the Talley m70 rmr mount which mounts directly to the action. I have a LOT of experience with red dots. I’d say I probably own 30 in total across all the major brands, Trijicon, aimpoint, eotech, holosun, etc etc.

Funny enough, for micro red dots, my favorite one is the holosun 509t. I specifically want a closed emitter (2 lens) optic for this rifle to be completely element proof. Your SRO is a fantastic optic with big field of view. They are meant more for competitive shooters as they are not as rugged, but so long as you don’t drop it directly on a rock I don’t think you’d ever have any problems. Some had issues with the glass actually falling out but this was on handguns where as you can imagine the recoil forces they experience are leagues above what they would experience in a rifle, even a large caliber one.

Thanks for the tips on parts reliability. I had no idea from the factory the m70 safari had these issues. Everything I’ve read said they feed quite well and are reliable. I’ll have to dig into this more and source some of these parts. Magazine spring is easy to replace. When you say striker I assume you mean firing pin? As for the extractor, I should know in the first 50 rounds if there’s going to be any issues. To test it I’ll load a few rounds near max pressure to get them a bit “sticky” in the chamber to ensure the extractor functions properly.

My trip is in August but will be plains game and quite possibly a buffalo cow in the neighboring property. Unfortunately this build will not be done by then for permitting so I am bringing a ruger Hawkeye FTW 375 ruger with silencerco hybrid suppressor, Leupold 3.5-10 scope with a holosun 507c on top piggybacked on the scope. I zero the scope with 270 Barnes LRX and the red dot with 300 DGS solids. The point of impact is so darn close anyway it doesn’t make much difference, but my thought was scope for plains game and first shot on DG and red dot thereafter in case of a charge etc. This WAS my thinking anyway until I decided to buy a 458 win mag. I will cut the barrel to 19.5” and handload CEB 420 raptors to around 2300 and 450 safari solids to 2250 hopefully using Reloder 10x powder. I will use the same silencerco hybrid suppressor on this rifle as well. This rifle will wear only a red dot. I’m leaning towards the holosun 509t since I have so much experience with them and they have been utterly reliable. I also like that it can be removed very easily with the single cross bolt mounting system vs the standard trijicon which requires you to have 2 screws loctited in place making removal not practical or convenient.

My hopes are that I can barely see the iron sights through the bottom of the dot. If it works out the optics is still too tall, then I will simply buy a Talley 2 piece pic rail and install only the front one. I’ll then buy an ADM QD 509t mount so I can quickly and easily remove the red dot in the field to use my irons in the event of any optic failure, however unlikely it may be.

generalzip said:

Your SRO is a fantastic optic with big field of view. They are meant more for competitive shooters as they are not as rugged, but so long as you don’t drop it directly on a rock I don’t think you’d ever have any problems. Some had issues with the glass actually falling out but this was on handguns where as you can imagine the recoil forces they experience are leagues above what they would experience in a rifle, even a large caliber one.

Thanks for the tips on parts reliability. I had no idea from the factory the m70 safari had these issues. Everything I’ve read said they feed quite well and are reliable. I’ll have to dig into this more and source some of these parts. Magazine spring is easy to replace. When you say striker I assume you mean firing pin? As for the extractor, I should know in the first 50 rounds if there’s going to be any issues. To test it I’ll load a few rounds near max pressure to get them a bit “sticky” in the chamber to ensure the extractor functions properly.

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For my SRO, I know how to break equipment and haven't yet. I was raised on a farm not far from @Betterinthebush although a decade earlier, two decades in the Marines, followed by managing the enterprise of fleets of equipment, I know about operator error and how things break. There are videos of dropping a SRO mounted on a handgun to break it, successfully. I discussed this eyeball to eyeball with Trijicon engineers. Anything is possible if you try it enough times.

Bolt action rifles have strikers, not firing pins. One of our members, a fellow Marine with the flag raising at Iwo Jima in his profiel photo (can't remember his name now...) that had a srtiker break?

Extractors break when they break. This failure is certainly more common than strikers breaking but less so than magazine spring failures. Any defects are in the steel's lattice structure of molecules. You probably won't have a problem...

Good luck

@Mark A Ouellette I don’t know if you are referring to me, I was not a marine, (failed the hearing test) but I did have a safety lever break rendering the rifle useless until replaced. It was an easy fix requiring a small roll pin punch.
Also the striker springs are known to be weak on these rifles and I recommend keeping a spare.
If anyone gets in a jam and can’t source parts I have a spare safety lever and possibly a spring on hand.

Wyatt Smith said:

@Mark A Ouellette I don’t know if you are referring to me, I was not a marine, (failed the hearing test) but I did have a safety lever break rendering the rifle useless until replaced. It was an easy fix requiring a small roll pin punch.
Also the striker springs are known to be weak on these rifles and I recommend keeping a spare.
If anyone gets in a jam and can’t source parts I have a spare safety lever and possibly a spring on hand.

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Hey @Wyatt Smith , Yes it was your post I half remembered about the striker, or as you corrected me, the striker spring.

Safety lever? Who would have thought one of those would break.