What’s your ideal Dangerous Game bolt gun?

[revturbo9967]

Thank you for all the info. The only reason I mentioned the 460 Roy is I was under the impression it was a hot ticket for DG at some point in time. I didn’t know it was unpopular. I’m not all that worried about recoil. (I’ve shot a .50 without a brake enough times to turn my shoulder black for a week) I’ll have to look into the other cartridges you mentioned . The 450 Rigby could be a fun round to try out.

 

[CTDolan]

My vote would go to the 450 Rigby, also (second choice would be the 416 Rigby).

As for capacity, it'd be a simple thing to put in a dropped floor plate to increase capacity. A little time at a milling machine, some hand finishing and bluing, and you're finished.

 

[One Day...]

Ooops, meant "...opened up for the .500 Jeff" (not .550)

 

[One Day...]

As for capacity, it'd be a simple thing to put in a dropped floor plate to increase capacity.

Yep. Actually, I believe that Weatherby has a factory one for their DG rifles, and they will sell the part, but I seem to remember that it is aluminum

 

[One Day...]

i should add i have custom bottom metal that allows for 4 in the rifle . 3+1

And anyway it seems to be a moot point ;-)

 

[revturbo9967]

And anyway it seems to be a moot point ;-)

This one is stainless too. I’ll get a picture of it when I dig it out of the safe .

 

[geoff rath]

Not experienced with too many D/G rifles/cartridges, but I too like the Rigby cartridges; "adequate" power, no silly belt, and they feed through a good bolt action like the proverbial hot knife through butter.

 

[gizmo]

I don’t know if it would be “ideal” but I would sell my left.....leg for a Rigby London Best Vintage all decked out in 416 Rigby. Of course short of winning the lottery it will never happen.
I do dearly love my CZ 550 American Safari in 375 H&H I also enjoy my Ruger Guide Gun but hate the 416 Ruger Caliber.

 

[BeeMaa]

My dreams are full of DG bolt guns...most of which are WAY beyond my means.
If the Department of Finance would allow, it would be a 416 Rigby CZ550 customized by AHR.
I'm a simple man, with simple needs.
This rifle wouldn't be a need, it would be a real gift.
But it would have to work for a living, not live the life of a safe queen.
The 550 fills that perfectly to me.
We will see, I have a birthday coming up.

 

[Pheroze]

400 H&H...useless belt and all.....slick cartridge, manageable, good trajectory and uses the same bullet as the 450/400 - which seems to have developed a reasonable reputation in some quarters of the globe - but, pushes it about 200 fps faster.

Brno ZKK 602 action.

24" barrel with open sights, big bead on the front. Topped with Alaska Arms mounts holding a Swarovski Z6i 1-6.

Not a cannon but about perfect for this hunter/client

 

[One Day...]

400 H&H...useless belt and all....

I hope my "useless belt" earlier-post statement did not come across the wrong way. I apologize if it did. What I meant to convey is that the belt is useless on a .416 or .450 Rigby because they both have a clearly defined and relatively sharp shoulder to head-space on. This is not the case with the .300 H&H and .400 H&H (and barely the case with the .375 H&H), which means that these cartridges require a belt to head-space on. So, in the .400 H&H case, the belt is definitely not "useless" ;-)
Conversely, all the Weatherby cartridges (and the 7 mm Rem Mag, and the .300 Win Mag, and, and, and... i.e. virtually all "modern" belted magnums) offer a text-book case of belt uselessness (and Lord knows I love my .340 Wby, and my .300 Wby as heavy and light plains-game thumpers). Their sharp - although radiused in the case of Wby - shoulders provide all the head-spacing contact one could ever want, and their belt is clearly a magazine-space-robbing marketing gimmick...
And of course, these long smooth .300, .375, and, I am sure, the .400 H&H, all feed as proverbial crap through a goose, compared to the straight-wall, sharp-shoulder, shorter, "modern" rounds that seem to catch and drag their sharp shoulders on everything between magazine and chamber. That may be, in my mind, the only real advantage of the Weatherby "venturi" shoulder: don't know if it burns powder better, but sure feeds smoother...

 

[IvW]

also, i thought the 460 roy was a good caliber for DG. why is it not?

Because it says Weatherby behind the 460 portion!

What on earth do you want to hunt with a 500 grain bullet travelling @ 2600 fps? Elephants @ 300 yards?

It has 2,41 times the felt recoil of a 470 NE!!! Yip that basically means pulling both triggers on a 470 NE and then some!

Unless you are completely devoid of feeling any recoil you will have a hard time hitting an elephant from the inside!

The thing will break you down to such an extent that it will end up in a disastrous safari.

Most PH's and trackers will cringe when a client pulls out a 460 Weatherby in camp as they realise they are going to be in for hard safari.

Trust me a 460 Weatherby is the wrong way to go for a DG rifle. I still need to meet one who can consistently and accurately use either a 460, 340 or 416 Weatherby. The lone exception would be the mild 375 Weatherby loaded with 350 grain bullets.

Fitting a muzzle break of some sort will only further lead to more disgruntled staff and PH's in camp. After the dust settles you will have a hard time seeing which way whatever you shot at has gone. Bystanders and yourself will have ringing ears long after the evening campfire has turned to embers. Not to mention the headaches and loose tooth fillings for yourself.

Then deciding to download this speed freak due to inability to handle the recoil defeats the object. Build something with the right ballistics and proven track record from the start.

As mentioned if you want to step up to 458 caliber the best bet would be to chamber to 450 Rigby.

The 500 Jeff will not be happy when chambered in a Weatherby action.

You only need either:

1. 375 caliber with bullets from 300- 380 grains @ 2500-2200 fps.
2. 400 caliber with bullets from 400-450 grains @ 2400-2200 fps
3. 458 caliber with bullets from 500-550 grains @ 2400-2200 fps
4. 500 caliber with bullets from 570-600 grains @ 2400-2200 fps

Preferably on a controlled feed action(for reliable extraction more than feeding).

Let common sense prevail and build something you can put to good effect when coming to hunt DG in Africa.

Calibers that come to mind with proven track records are 404 Jeff, 416 Rigby and 450 Rigby. I would strongly recommend any of these instead.

Yes I don't like Weatherby's, especially for DG rifles and yes I do own a rifle built on a Weatherby mark V action that started life as a 460 Weatherby from their Custom shop.

 

[One Day...]

Time for DATA

I still need to meet one who can consistently and accurately use either a 460, 340 or 416 Weatherby

Totally agree with @IvW except for including .340 Wby in his no-go list, but this may have been a typo and he may have meant the .378 Wby that fits right there with the .416 Wby and .460 Wby in Roy's very own DG country.

Let me explain with some data...

For reference, a 8 lb .270 Win shooting 150 gr develops 17 ft/lb of free recoil, and countless people have killed everything up to DG with it. As for 'Karamojo' Walter Dalrymple Maitland (W.D.M.) Bell's 7 1/2 lb .256 Mannlicher-Schoenauer (i.e. 6.5x54), it only developed 11 ft/lb. Lord knows how many hundreds or thousands of elephants he killed with it. Different days, different hunts, I know, but the point still remains, it killed elephants.

My .300 Wby (Winchester 70 Classic, Bell & Carlson Medalist stock, Schmidt & Bender 1.5-6x42 30 mm tube) weighs unloaded 9 lb 2 oz and develops 24 ft/lb with the light plains-game 150 gr. Nosler Partition factory load. That is already 41% more than the 17 ft/lb of the 8 lb .270 Win shooting 150 gr. (24-17/17=0.41), but most anyone can shoot 24 ft/lb of recoil without a lengthy learning curve.

That same gun (.300 Wby), develops 31 ft/lb of free recoil with the medium plains-game / universal 180 gr. Nosler Partition factory load. That is an 82% increase over the .270 Win / 150 gr. combo, and it seems that the 30 ft/lbs range is apparently where the learning curve starts steepening.

My heavy plains-game .340 Wby (Mark V Stainless, Bell & Carlson Medalist stock, Zeiss 2.5-10x48 30 mm tube) weighs unloaded 10 lb 9 oz. It develops 37 ft/lb of free recoil with the 250 gr. Nosler Partition factory load. It has more than TWICE (117%) a .270 Win / 150 gr. recoil, but it is clearly manageable IF you know what you are doing. I do shoot ~1 MOA groups with it all day long (with a heavy shoulder pad), and I ring the steel gong with it at 400 yards with regular monotony from the sticks. Is there a learning curve to shoot accurately 37 ft/lb of recoil? Heck yes! But it can be done fairly easily with proper technique.

For comparison, my .416 Rigby (CZ 550, Bell & Carlson Medalist stock, Schmidt & Bender 1.25-4x20 30 mm tube) weighs unloaded 10 lb 10 oz and develops 56 ft/lb of free recoil with the 400 gr. Hornady DGS / DGX-B practice / brass-donor factory loads. Next level up! Clearly! Over 3 times as much as .270 Win. But still OK if you learn it, and I routinely shoot it from the bench (with a heavy shoulder pad) for loads development / optics sighting without apprehension or consequences.

To continue the comparison, my .458 Lott (Mauser 66, Docter III) weighs 8 lb 13 oz and develops 80 ft/lb of free recoil with the 500 gr. A Square Triad factory loads (I know, I date myself using these loads LOL). I do NOT shoot it from the bench, and 10 shots in a row give me a slight dizziness, while 20 rounds give me a frank head-heck. THAT GUN IS JUST TOO DANG LIGHT. PERIOD! Just getting it to 10 1/2 lb would drop the recoil to 67 ft/lb, which is, give or take, the same as an 11 lb .470 double (69 ft/lb). Pouring 2 lb of lead in the stock will do the trick but destroy the balance. There is likely a CZ 550 in .450 Rigby in my future, or - if I can scrape the money - a used .470 Heym double to replace my long gone and always lamented 450 #2. Decisions, decisions... In any case the 80 ft/lb range seems to be the threshold where even those who genuinely know how to shoot the big sticks start finding their limits. For perspective, let us keep in mind that a 12 lb .500 double "only" generates 74 ft/lb of recoil...

Now, an 11 1/4 lb Mark V in .460 Wby will doll out a clean 100 ft/lb of free recoil. And felt recoil will be even worse although harder to quantify mathematically. Not a new level; a new dimension! All I am going to say is those who shoot it WELL are more men than I am, and ... don't forget the Excedrin ;-)

I am sure you noted that I said those who shoot it WELL. Because those who buy a canon, relative to their shooting experience - and THAT could be a .340 if all you have shot before is a .270 - and go merely on their guided hunt with a newly bought box of ammo are in for a big surprise... Three shots into it they will be scared of their gun and not be capable a hitting a barn at 10 yards...

This is where @Pheroze makes so much sense with the mild recoiling, slick feeding, don't-kick-you-into-next-county-but-still-get-the-job-done .400 H&H. Maybe not enough for a pro on backup duty, but perfect for a client. Replace .400 H&H with .404 or .416 Rigby in the previous sentence if so inclined (even though the higher speed of the Rigby will definitely be felt in additional recoil) .

 

[revturbo9967]

this is a great discussion . im glad i asked here . @IvW . again, i only listed the 460 weatherby as it fits in the bold face i have and i was under the impression it was built for DG. that is why i ask these questions . my background of rifles is long range . Well, longer range. i haven't cracked shooting past 1500 yards with any of my rifles yet. speed and BC are the name of the game there , completely opposite of DG it seems.

I may never hunt DG so this is just something floating in my mind to do. i will look at the 416 or 450 as a good option due to ammo availability and reloading components ive found.

and that brings me to my next question, those who hunt and shoot these heavy hitters, do you reload or run factory ammo?

 

[IvW]

this is a great discussion . im glad i asked here . @IvW . again, i only listed the 460 weatherby as it fits in the bold face i have and i was under the impression it was built for DG. that is why i ask these questions . my background of rifles is long range . Well, longer range. i haven't cracked shooting past 1500 yards with any of my rifles yet. speed and BC are the name of the game there , completely opposite of DG it seems.

I may never hunt DG so this is just something floating in my mind to do. i will look at the 416 or 450 as a good option due to ammo availability and reloading components ive found.

and that brings me to my next question, those who hunt and shoot these heavy hitters, do you reload or run factory ammo?

I reload all my own ammo for DG hunting.

 

[HWL]

The originally question was "your ideal Dangerous Game bolt gun"..... great question...

With a picture, those who have one, can declare, why specially THIS gun is your "ideal Dangerous game rifle"...

Open your safes and let us see....



HWL

 

[CTDolan]

The one in the middle. It is of moderate weight, utterly reliable, impervious to anything, and of sufficient power to do all that could be asked of any rifle at any moment (400 grains, 0.416" diameter, 2,250 fps) .

The other two, 458 Lott and 30-06, are good rifles but the Lott is a bit much for all but the most extreme of situations (and noticeably more rifle to be carrying around all day). The 30-06 is of course a go anywhere, do anything rifle, just as long as that anywhere and anything doesn't involve Africa and her biggest and baddest beasts.

Were I wealthy you'd be looking at an image of a Rigby or other such top-end bolt rifle, but I am not and so it's the mass-produced (which can be quite capable, once the idiosyncrasies common to a factory arm have been addressed).

 

[BeeMaa]

The one in the middle. It is of moderate weight, utterly reliable, impervious to anything, and of sufficient power to do all that could be asked of any rifle at any moment (400 grains, 0.416" diameter, 2,250 fps) .

The other two, 458 Lott and 30-06, are good rifles but the Lott is a bit much for all but the most extreme of situations (and noticeably more rifle to be carrying around all day). The 30-06 is of course a go anywhere, do anything rifle, just as long as that anywhere and anything doesn't involve Africa and her biggest and baddest beasts.

Were I wealthy you'd be looking at an image of a Rigby or other such top-end bolt rifle, but I am not and so it's the mass-produced (which can be quite capable, once the idiosyncrasies common to a factory arm have been addressed).

View attachment 223745

The one in the middle, is it a Ruger Guide Gun?
Maybe caliber 416 Ruger?
If so, I haven't seen one with a stock like that. Is it aftermarket?

 

[CTDolan]

It is a Guide Gun in 416 Ruger. The stock is an aftermarket Hogue with a full-length aluminum bedding block. As I recall the barrel contour (channel) required is "B".

https://www.hogueinc.com/ruger-m77-mkii-hawkeye-l-a-b-barrel-full-length-bed-block-stock-od-green

The reason for the switch is that I wanted something absolutely bomb proof, a rifle that I could toss in a river, come back a year later, dredge up, clean off and put back into service (the kind of thing that, in the middle of the Alaskan bush, won't become an area of concern).

 

[Dewald]

It is a Guide Gun in 416 Ruger. The stock is an aftermarket Hogue with a full-length aluminum bedding block....

The reason for the switch is that I wanted something absolutely bomb proof, a rifle that I could toss in a river, come back a year later, dredge up, clean off and put back into service (the kind of thing that, in the middle of the Alaskan bush, won't become an area of concern).

I feel exactly the same about my .416 Ruger Alaskan.

I have never handled the guide gun that replaced the Hawkeye Alaskan. Apart from a muzzle break, does the stock and action differ at all?