What’s your ideal Dangerous Game bolt gun?

[IvW]

My "guide gun" is CZ 458WM with an armtech stock. These are " go to's " for plenty PH's and Rangers over here. They are a bit "rough" but they function 100% every time, and 500gr at about 2000fps is all you need (and what you want) at close range. Mine has the standard 25" length barrel but they feel and handle better with a 23 or 24" barrel. Obviously you los a bit of V, but it makes no difference close up.
That having been said, the best close range weapon (IMO) remains a double in 470NE. So well proven that fewwould care to argue

Personally I do not like a 458 WM as a back-up rifle.

It was originally designed to duplicate the 470 NE which fired a 500 gr bullet @ 2100 fps and 5140 foot pounds energy. The 458 Win fell short and could not and still cannot reach this without undue chamber pressure which in hot conditions such as the valley or KZN leads to other serious issues.

The 458 Lott however achieves and exceeds these figures by a large margin without the chamber pressure issues associated with the 458 Win. Also the 458 Lott has the case capacity to shoot 550 grain bullets at respectable velocity.

There is a huge difference in performance between the two.

For those who regularly guide clients on buffalo and especially elephant the 458 Win is a poor choice.

On a DG back-up rifle there are a few things I personally do not like;

1. Small high pressure cases.
2. Inability to load the new heavier for caliber bullets.
3. Straight wall case.
4. Belt.

The 458 Win fails all 4 these criteria.

The only 458 I would personally consider would be the 450 Rigby with 410-450 gr bullets.

I would choose a 404 Jeff or the 416 Rigby over the 458 Win.

Personally I use a 500 Jeff, the most devastatingly effective combination on any DG under any circumstances.

Yes the big doubles are great for close range work and in an appropriate caliber with a competent user is also most effective but for bolt action user regularly hunting DG, I would steer well clear of the 458 Win.

 

[One Day...]

...458 Lott was not an original Mauser chambering in the M66(S).... did you ream the chamber of a .458 Win-Mag or got a new barrel?

HWL

Sorry for a delayed response. You are absolutely correct. The Mauser 66 had a .458 Win Mag factory chamber.

In the late 80's we did not have the current plethora of DG calibers. It was about impossible to find ammo for my 450 #2, and the .458 Win was still under lingering suspicion. Objectively, the early compressed load failures to ignite were long corrected, but we hunters tend to have a long memory about technicalities that can get oneself killed in the field, and, at any rate, the quietly downloaded .458 Win factory ammo, now reliable, did not - and still does not, I understand - deliver on the promise to match the .450/.470 performance. So after carefully verifying that feeding "should" work with the longer Lott cartridge, I had Griffin & Howe push a .458 Lott finishing reamer in the .458 Win chamber, which was simple enough, and that was essentially it.

The magazine well, feeding lips and feeding ramp did not require work per se, although it seems that no production rifle, even from Germany, receives nowadays the polishing necessary for truly smooth operation. I spent a few hours with progressively smoother grit sandpaper and various hand-made wood blocks to polish to a mirror finish the few truly important contact areas until the action literally "glided" in the receiver. If I open it and tilt the gun forward or backward, the bolt slides under its own weight forth and back in the action. Rounding up the side edges at the front of the action where the magazine box meets the feeding ramp also made a tremendous difference with the desired bullet blunt round nose profile. I will date myself if I say that I still shoot A Square trilogy of Lion-Load, Dead-Tough, and Monolithic-Solid, but 20 years ago they were the very best commercial ammo for the .458 Lott (and no-one else loaded commercially for it anyway if memory serves), and I played safe and purchased several hundreds of each.

If you have a Mauser 66 in .458 Win you can safely have it opened to Lott. It will actually feed the Lott better than the Win. I now have a Docter III red dot on mine, mounted on the 12 mm dovetail ramp of the barrel, because somehow over the last few years there always seem to be a little bit of fog around the front sight ;-) and it remains one of my most trusted guns. At 8 lb 13 oz it is maybe a bit too light for the Lott for comfortable all-day shooting, with 80 ft/lb of free recoil, (10 more ft/lb than an 11 lb .470 double), but heck! we do not need to stop cement trucks in their tracks on an hourly basis, do we?, and their is a lot of walking in between...

It is also amusing to note how the Mauser 66 telescopic action was derided by those who apparently never carried one in the field as "easy to jam in the sand of Africa" only to become the new "modern standard" under Blaser guise ;-)

As a parting thought, it perplexes me that people still buy rifles chambered in .458 Win, when .458 Lott ammo is now readily available, AND a . 458 Lott chamber will safely fire .458 Win all day long if this is the only ammo you happen to find at the local bazaar, 100 miles of dust away from Arusha. But to each their own...

 

[One Day...]

Personally I do not like a 458 WM as a back-up rifle.

It was originally designed to duplicate the 470 NE which fired a 500 gr bullet @ 2100 fps and 5140 foot pounds energy. The 458 Win fell short and could not and still cannot reach this without undue chamber pressure which in hot conditions such as the valley or KZN leads to other serious issues.

The 458 Lott however achieves and exceeds these figures by a large margin without the chamber pressure issues associated with the 458 Win. Also the 458 Lott has the case capacity to shoot 550 grain bullets at respectable velocity.

There is a huge difference in performance between the two.

For those who regularly guide clients on buffalo and especially elephant the 458 Win is a poor choice.

On a DG back-up rifle there are a few things I personally do not like;

1. Small high pressure cases.
2. Inability to load the new heavier for caliber bullets.
3. Straight wall case.
4. Belt.

The 458 Win fails all 4 these criteria.

The only 458 I would personally consider would be the 450 Rigby with 410-450 gr bullets.

I would choose a 404 Jeff or the 416 Rigby over the 458 Win.

Personally I use a 500 Jeff, the most devastatingly effective combination on any DG under any circumstances.

Yes the big doubles are great for close range work and in an appropriate caliber with a competent user is also most effective but for bolt action user regularly hunting DG, I would steer well clear of the 458 Win.

Amen!

 

[Dr Ray]

Nice gun.

Wow! What else could I say?

 

[Dr Ray]

How’s this for a dangerous game rifle!
My sons friend converted a 50 cal barrel to a 71 cal. Fires something like a 750 grain Bullets at 3000 FPS.
“Friend” did this by not necking down the 50 caliber.
Now that’s “knock down power”.
Use ???errrr T. rex !

 

[One Day...]

That having been said, the best close range weapon (IMO) remains a double in 470NE. So well proven that few would care to argue

Amen too!

The interesting age-old debate being of course what to prefer between: the one-second SECOND shot from the double; and the three-second THIRD shot from the bolt action; 'cause, truth be told, if the two shots from the double somehow do not do the trick, things can get rapidly interesting, pumping those big nitro express shells in and out of the twin pipes... But of course, this is assuming that there is more than 3 seconds before the impending inconvenience... The other side of the question being follow up shots on a fleeing jumbo who did not get the memo about the brain shot...

PS: superior beings who always kill/stop anything, anywhere, at any distance, and under any circumstances, with only one shot need not feel concerned obviously ;-)

 

[One Day...]

How’s this for a dangerous game rifle!
My sons friend converted a 50 cal barrel to a 71 cal. Fires something like a 750 grain Bullets at 3000 FPS.
“Friend” did this by not necking down the 50 caliber.
Now that’s “knock down power”.
Use ???errrr T. rex !

If memory serves, John 'Pondoro' Taylor - a man of considerable practical experience as one of the last professional ivory hunters, and famed author of the grand classic book African Rifles & Cartridges - reckoned that to genuinely shock a multi-tons elephant nothing could work short of a "field gun" (the British terminology for what we call ... a piece of artillery, as in a 105 mm howitzer or something like that. Would respectfully suggest that your kid's friend start experimenting with more serious rounds such as the 30 mm GAU-8 Avenger (better known as the A10 primary weapon), or may I suggest the ever favorite 40 mm Bofors, not to mention the universally respected German flak and pack 88 mm LOL LOL LOL

 

[HWL]

If you have a Mauser 66 in .458 Win you can safely have it opened to Lott. It will actually feed the Lott better than the Win. I now have a Docter III red dot on mine, mounted on the 12 mm dovetail ramp of the barrel, because somehow over the last few years there always seem to be a little bit of fog around the front sight ;-) and it remains one of my most trusted guns. At 8 lb 13 oz it is maybe a bit too light for the Lott for comfortable all-day shooting, with 80 ft/lb of free recoil, (10 more ft/lb than an 11 lb .470 double), but heck! we do not need to stop cement trucks in their tracks on an hourly basis, do we?, and their is a lot of walking in between...

It is also amusing to note how the Mauser 66 telescopic action was derided by those who apparently never carried one in the field as "easy to jam in the sand of Africa" only to become the new "modern standard" under Blaser guise ;-)

I asked the question, because there is a Mauser 66S in .458 Win-Mag, suffering in my gunsafe.

I bought it for cheap before years, but we never became real friends.

It came with a Zeiss 2,5-10x52 Diavari, I replaced by a Zeiss 1,5-4,5x18 Diavari.

But it still has double set trigger, witch I like to hunt with, but NOT on a dangerous game rifle.

So, the rifle is still a construction site, and I think about, it is worth to invest the money (trigger and rechambering)to turn it into a real DG rifle


HWL

 

[One Day...]

I asked the question, because there is a Mauser 66S in .458 Win-Mag, suffering in my gunsafe.

I bought it for cheap before years, but we never became real friends.

It came with a Zeiss 2,5-10x52 Diavari, I replaced by a Zeiss 1,5-4,5x18 Diavari.

But it still has double set trigger, witch I like to hunt with, but NOT on a dangerous game rifle.

So, the rifle is still a construction site, and I think about, it is worth to invest the money (trigger and rechambering)to turn it into da DG rifle


HWL

As you can guess, I will say "yes", but I am highly partial ;-)

On the practical side of things, pushing a .458 Lott reamer in a Mauser 66 .458 Win chamber (the barrel does not need to be unscrewed from the action since it is not screwed in to begin with) will probably cost all of $50 - I am guessing - and the 1,5-4,5x18 Diavari shall do nicely, although I personally prefer no glass "really up close and personal" and I would highly recommend the Docter III (or Trijicon, or Leupold, or etc. etc.) red dot as a light, unobtrusive, and true two-eyes-open shooting solution... Mine is mounted on a EAW quick detachable mount for the 12 mm dovetail barrel ramp, from Optics-Trade.eu.
Not sure about the cost of a single trigger (and why on earth would somebody order a stecher double trigger on a .458 !?!?!?) in Germany, but please allow me to share a secret treasure with you. You can order one from Numrich in the US for $51 (https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/1606790).
You will also need a taller front sight ($15) because the .458 Lott barrel timing (i.e. recoil effect on point of impact) is different from that of the .458 Win and you will likely shoot high with your backup iron sights.

PS: I just noted that Numrich only ships to the US (where I live) but I will be happy to get it for you and ship it to you if you decide to go this route.

 

[HWL]

....and why on earth would somebody order a stecher double trigger on a .458 !?!?!?... in Germany, but please allow me to share a secret treasure with you. You can order one from Numrich in the US for $51 (https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/1606790).

Germans are strange, sometimes, I know this...

...and thanks for the link,... but this is a trigger for a M66..... and will not work in a M66S.

Nontheless, good to know, that a Lott will work flawlessly in a M66S.


HWL

 

[Foxi]

my favorite PH in Zimb (500 elephants on his list) is using a .375 H+H
"all bigger things are for cowards"
It seems he is the opposite of Mark Sullivan.

A thread for a lot of chips and beer

 

[IvW]

my favorite PH in Zimb (500 elephants on his list) is using a .375 H+H
"all bigger things are for cowards"
It seems he is the opposite of Mark Sullivan.

A thread for a lot of chips and beer

He either shoots straighter than me or he has bigger b.lls!

 

[Bruce]

He either shoots straighter than me or he has bigger b.lls!

Probably BOTH!!!

 

[revturbo9967]

Maybe this is a good place to ask this question. I have a weatherby mark V in 338 Lapua mag. Its sporting a 4.5-27 vortex razor scope. It’s a factory barreled action and it seems the barrel is getting tired as I’ve seen groups starting to open up. I have a few other long range rifles so this one doesn’t hold any value to me. From what I know the dangerous game calibers the .585 bolt face can handle are 416 rigby, 416 weatherby , 460 weatherby and 470 nitro express. If I wanted to change this over , what caliber would everyone suggest? Obviously the optics and adjustable stock on it now would need to go if I want to make this a “dangerous game” rifle. I would certainly add iron sights to it too. Any suggestions would be great . Thanks

 

[IvW]

Maybe this is a good place to ask this question. I have a weatherby mark V in 338 Lapua mag. Its sporting a 4.5-27 vortex razor scope. It’s a factory barreled action and it seems the barrel is getting tired as I’ve seen groups starting to open up. I have a few other long range rifles so this one doesn’t hold any value to me. From what I know the dangerous game calibers the .585 bolt face can handle are 416 rigby, 416 weatherby , 460 weatherby and 470 nitro express. If I wanted to change this over , what caliber would everyone suggest? Obviously the optics and adjustable stock on it now would need to go if I want to make this a “dangerous game” rifle. I would certainly add iron sights to it too. Any suggestions would be great . Thanks

Dump the scope.

416 Rigby would be the best choice. Anything with Weatherby behind the caliber number is a no no. 470 NE in a bolt action DG is asking for trouble. Just make sure you locktite the allen screw below the bolt in the rail.

Not the best action for a DG rifle though. Push feed and the mag only holds 2. Very strong is the main plus point but all the rest are strong enough.

 

[revturbo9967]

Dump the scope.

416 Rigby would be the best choice. Anything with Weatherby behind the caliber number is a no no. 470 NE in a bolt action DG is asking for trouble. Just make sure you locktite the allen screw below the bolt in the rail.

Not the best action for a DG rifle though. Push feed and the mag only holds 2. Very strong is the main plus point but all the rest are strong enough.

thank you. i should add i have custom bottom metal that allows for 4 in the rifle . 3+1

 

[revturbo9967]

also, i thought the 460 roy was a good caliber for DG. why is it not?

 

[Rick Cox]

Maybe this is a good place to ask this question. I have a weatherby mark V in 338 Lapua mag. Its sporting a 4.5-27 vortex razor scope. It’s a factory barreled action and it seems the barrel is getting tired as I’ve seen groups starting to open up. I have a few other long range rifles so this one doesn’t hold any value to me. From what I know the dangerous game calibers the .585 bolt face can handle are 416 rigby, 416 weatherby , 460 weatherby and 470 nitro express. If I wanted to change this over , what caliber would everyone suggest? Obviously the optics and adjustable stock on it now would need to go if I want to make this a “dangerous game” rifle. I would certainly add iron sights to it too. Any suggestions would be great . Thanks

This reminds of an axe that has been in my family for generations, it is on its six handle and third head...

 

[One Day...]

...and thanks for the link,... but this is a trigger for a M66..... and will not work in a M66S.

Hmmm... I am curious, what is the difference between the M66 and M66S? I always thought that the "S" stood for stutzen (full length so-called "mannlicher" stock) and that they were mechanically identical. The only 2 versions of the rifle, that I know off, and I am not sure which is the newest, are the one with the Weatherby-style pivot safety, and the one with the transversal push button safety. Both lock the firing pin, not the sear, which makes them "true" mechanical safeties. If there are other differences than the stock between M66 and M66S, please describe, I am interested...

 

[One Day...]

From what I know the dangerous game calibers the .585 bolt face can handle are 416 rigby, 416 weatherby , 460 weatherby and 470 nitro express

FYI, the list also includes the .450 Rigby, a fairly new creation (1993) by Paul Roberts, the then-owner of Rigby (before it was sold to the a group of US investors and moved in California, then bought back by Roberts and moved back to London). It is simply the .416 Rigby necked up to .450.

By all accounts, the .450 Rigby delivers performance on par with the .458 Lott - which everyone agrees is satisfactory from a ballistics perspective - but it is a better cartridge design, and maybe the best .45-class DG caliber design, because it develops lower pressure, has a bottleneck case design, and does not embarrass itself with a useless belt.
I would wager that a number of us aficionados of the .458 Lott would have picked the .450 Rigby instead if it had been widely available before the late 1990's / early 2000's. I know that I would have... It has been apparently taking off very nicely since CZ started offering it in their 550.

I am not sure I would consider a Weatherby high-pressure, hyper velocity cartridge for close-range DG work. The risk of bullets blowing apart on big bones is always there. Please note that I am not knocking down Weatherby; my own favorite plains-game rifle is a .340 Wby and it works wonderfully when I need to reach out. But I did have a personal experience with a big Newfoundland moose who soaked up four 210 gr Nosler Partition at 35 yards, the first three of them having disintegrated on its shoulder bones with little but surface damage... The fourth one slipped between two ribs just behind the shoulder and struck it like a lighting bolt. I only shoot 250 gr. Partitions with it now, which have roughly the same trajectory but more recoil, and I use the gun only when I know that I will likely be shooting things reasonably heavy at likely long distances (e.g. black & blue wildebeest, red hartebeest, eland, etc. in the Eastern Cape; elk in the western US; moose in Canada, etc.). I will be using it this coming August on a 12 days / 14 species plains-game hunt with Huntershill near East London...

I would probably also stay away from a rimmed cartridge in a standard box magazine rifle. I know that some slanted boxes were designed to deal with rimmed cartridges, where they would ride ahead of each others and the rims would not catch on each other during feeding (Heym did a .500 NE such rifle), but the Mark V will not allow that.

But if you are considering .416 or .460 Wby, it implies that you are comfortable, or at least ready to deal, with their recoil. In this case, your decision is all made for you. I am going to make @IvW smile, but I mean it: re-barrell to .500 Jeffery and be happy ever after.

PS: you may need a new bolt because the .500 Jeff rebated rim diameter is different, but Weatherby will be happy to sell you one of the .375 H&H family bolts that can be opened up for the .550 Jeff. The rim diameter spec on the .460 Wby seems to be 0.579" and the that of the .500 Jeff seems to 0.575" so that may work as is (?)