Pet Peve: Extra fees on offers

[gillettehunter]

As a Hunter on a budget I carefully look at offers for hunts here and on other networks. I doubt that I'm the only one that is turned off by extra fees in hunt offers. Some offers look very good initially until you look at all the extras: to and from airport transport fees, charges for arrival and departure days, charges to deliver your trophies to the taxidermist, rifle permit fee, tax on ammo, arrival and departure fee to inspect your rifle [Kimberly airport plus probably others], government taxes on daily costs and the list could go on. Sometimes I think they'd like to charge me for the air I breathe. After all of the extras, there is then an expectation of tips.........
IMHO hunt offers could be simplified by just increasing the daily rates and giving us a complete price that doesn't require us to break out a calculator for 10 items on the list. I'm in the retail trade. I know you guys are in business to make a profit. I understand competition for hunting clients. I realize that there is a cost to go to an airport to get a client, but on a hunt that costs over $15,000 I would think that could be added in for free. Different story if the client wants to a charter flight.
I sometimes feel like that we, the US hunters in particular, are looked at like the golden goose to be plucked for every dollar that can be gotten. It just flat turns me off. Go through 10-15 hunt offers and you can see what I'm talking about. Rant is over. Bruce

 

[Brent in Az]

Tanzania has never been shy about costs. Ive seen daily costs charged for anti poaching. Air charters as high as $6500. For a single engine plane? You are correct on the golden goose theory.

 

[siml]

Bruce, most outfitters try and keep it simple. No grey areas. But I do agree when you see add 2% for this 3% for that, just include it in the day rate or trophy fee. I got asked on another thread about the costs of bullets into Mozambique, I don't bother charging per bullet, just included in the gun import permit.

 

[sierraone]

As a Hunter on a budget I carefully look at offers for hunts here and on other networks. I doubt that I'm the only one that is turned off by extra fees in hunt offers. Some offers look very good initially until you look at all the extras: to and from airport transport fees, charges for arrival and departure days, charges to deliver your trophies to the taxidermist, rifle permit fee, tax on ammo, arrival and departure fee to inspect your rifle [Kimberly airport plus probably others], government taxes on daily costs and the list could go on. Sometimes I think they'd like to charge me for the air I breathe. After all of the extras, there is then an expectation of tips.........
IMHO hunt offers could be simplified by just increasing the daily rates and giving us a complete price that doesn't require us to break out a calculator for 10 items on the list. I'm in the retail trade. I know you guys are in business to make a profit. I understand competition for hunting clients. I realize that there is a cost to go to an airport to get a client, but on a hunt that costs over $15,000 I would think that could be added in for free. Different story if the client wants to a charter flight.
I sometimes feel like that we, the US hunters in particular, are looked at like the golden goose to be plucked for every dollar that can be gotten. It just flat turns me off. Go through 10-15 hunt offers and you can see what I'm talking about. Rant is over. Bruce

I have seen many of these hunts posted during my time on AH. In nearly all if not all of the cases they are in countries other than South Africa. They are usually more than I can afford anyway. It usually appears that the governments of these countries require the extra taxes or fees and not the outfitter himself. IMO tips are a separate issue. But it sure would be easier, at least for me if the total costs of the hunt (day fees) had these included so hunters like you and I don't have to break out the calculator. For me it is a similar situation where some outfitters don't post any prices on their web sites. It would be much easier for someone of my financial ability to see the prices up front. Then I know immediately where I can afford to hunt with him or not. If not, then move on to the next outfitter!

 

[Brent in Az]

The one outfitter I saw in Tanzania charged an anti poaching fee for every animal harvested by a hunter. That can add a couple thousand dollars to a 21 day hunt. I understand that anti poaching efforts are expensive, but I think it would be prudent to hide those costs in the daily rate.

 

[sierraone]

The one outfitter I saw in Tanzania charged an anti poaching fee for every animal harvested by a hunter. That can add a couple thousand dollars to a 21 day hunt. I understand that anti poaching efforts are expensive, but I think it would be prudent to hide those costs in the daily rate.

Yes, Tanzania went off the deep end on hunting taxes and fees many years ago IMO. I probably could not afford a cull impala hunt there!!!

 

[Brent in Az]

Yes, Tanzania went off the deep end on hunting taxes and fees many years ago IMO. I probably could not afford a cull impala hunt there!!!

Dreams I'll never see!

 

[Mekaniks]

I don't mind outfitters charging for extra fees separately from daily rates or trophy fees, AS LONG AS THE EXTRA FEES ARE LISTED CLEARlY AS POSSIBLE UPFRONT.
If I see a hunt offer that has extra fees that are not listed, or at least estimated, I keep moving on. As an example, if the VAT is not included in the trophy fees, JUST BE CLEAR UPFRONT.
Also, if I see a web site that does not have prices listed, or the listed prices are more than a couple years old, I keep moving on.
My 2c.....

 

[gizmo]

I have seen many of these hunts posted during my time on AH. In nearly all if not all of the cases they are in countries other than South Africa. They are usually more than I can afford anyway. It usually appears that the governments of these countries require the extra taxes or fees and not the outfitter himself. IMO tips are a separate issue. But it sure would be easier, at least for me if the total costs of the hunt (day fees) had these included so hunters like you and I don't have to break out the calculator. For me it is a similar situation where some outfitters don't post any prices on their web sites. It would be much easier for someone of my financial ability to see the prices up front. Then I know immediately where I can afford to hunt with him or not. If not, then move on to the next outfitter!

While I completely agree and understand where you are coming from as an outfitter posting pricing on your website is a nightmare, at least has been for me. Reason is simple. You have several different hunts in the same realm but prices can vary greatly. Case in point.
Blackbuck hunt: contact me to incquire. Or:
Blackbuck hunt: 300/day/hunter day rates
Trophy fee: $3200
Observer:$150/day/observer
Sounds very simple and usually it is but what if the client wants to bring 4 hunters and two observers well then that's different. Then we have 6 people, 4 animals, and two non hunters. In that circumstance I can then start to bring cost down a little to save the client some money. What if the client wants a Top 10 SCI animal. Not happening at $3200 and the trophy fee will be significantly higher. What if they want to fly into Lubbock and want airport pickup? My home base is amarillo and it's a total of 8 hours drive time to make Lubbock happen between pickup and return trip. That cuts into hunting days and there is a charge for Lubbock pickup but not amarillo. What if the client has a specific request on top of what would normally be included like a 100 year old bottle of scotch or a extended stay with touring and going to professional sporting events.
Not to mention animal pricing fluctuates. Some years I have an abundance of a certain animal and can offer them standard for that year at a much reduced cost, inversely some years I sell a bunch of a specific animal and shoot out all my shooters this have to bring in new animals which can drive the price up. Animal pricing can vary +- up to 20% in a given year if I have to bring them in.
What if hunters solely want cull/meat type hunts for non trophy animals.
I could go on and on and before you know it you website has 12 pages of various pricing options for one animal and clients are properly confused.
The simple solution is to put contact us for details and have an email or phone conversation which by the end of it everyone is crystal clear on expectations and pricing.
When I post hunt offers here on AH I include the pricing and what is included/excluded in the offer for that particular hunt expecting it to be booked within a reasonable time frame of the offer. Occasionally someone will find a two year old offer and inquire about it which a may or may not be able to match the pricing in the offer. It's great when prices go down but when they have gone up some people get plumb upset over it when they talk to you.
If you really want to piss someone off post an animal at a certain rate on your website and for a plethora of reasons that animal todaymay cost 10 or 20 % more than when you put the trophy fee on your website 5 years ago.
As an outfitter it is a constant juggling act to keep pricing information current and still have time to do other things than sit behind your computer all day.
When I post offers here I post the total cost of the hunt broke down into day fees, trophy fees, what is/isn't included as that is the forum rules and the format people are used to seeing here. When I advertise in other venues I may only list the total cost as an all inclusive hunt out the door from arrival to departure for a single price. I as a client prefer that because personally I really don't care that much as how a hunt is broke down (with a few exceptions) and am more interested in total cost and what I get for that cost as opposed to what each individual thing costs.
I completely agree that the 2% for this 3% for that stuff makes me want to drink heavily when I'm trying to figure out a hunt cost. Just add it into the day rate an go on with it. If someone asked then be prepared to completely break down the pricing for them.

 

[sierraone]

While I completely agree and understand where you are coming from as an outfitter posting pricing on your website is a nightmare, at least has been for me. Reason is simple. You have several different hunts in the same realm but prices can vary greatly. Case in point.
Blackbuck hunt: contact me to incquire. Or:
Blackbuck hunt: 300/day/hunter day rates
Trophy fee: $3200
Observer:$150/day/observer
Sounds very simple and usually it is but what if the client wants to bring 4 hunters and two observers well then that's different. Then we have 6 people, 4 animals, and two non hunters. In that circumstance I can then start to bring cost down a little to save the client some money. What if the client wants a Top 10 SCI animal. Not happening at $3200 and the trophy fee will be significantly higher. What if they want to fly into Lubbock and want airport pickup? My home base is amarillo and it's a total of 8 hours drive time to make Lubbock happen between pickup and return trip. That cuts into hunting days and there is a charge for Lubbock pickup but not amarillo. What if the client has a specific request on top of what would normally be included like a 100 year old bottle of scotch or a extended stay with touring and going to professional sporting events.
Not to mention animal pricing fluctuates. Some years I have an abundance of a certain animal and can offer them standard for that year at a much reduced cost, inversely some years I sell a bunch of a specific animal and shoot out all my shooters this have to bring in new animals which can drive the price up. Animal pricing can vary +- up to 20% in a given year if I have to bring them in.
What if hunters solely want cull/meat type hunts for non trophy animals.
I could go on and on and before you know it you website has 12 pages of various pricing options for one animal and clients are properly confused.
The simple solution is to put contact us for details and have an email or phone conversation which by the end of it everyone is crystal clear on expectations and pricing.
When I post hunt offers here on AH I include the pricing and what is included/excluded in the offer for that particular hunt expecting it to be booked within a reasonable time frame of the offer. Occasionally someone will find a two year old offer and inquire about it which a may or may not be able to match the pricing in the offer. It's great when prices go down but when they have gone up some people get plumb upset over it when they talk to you.
If you really want to piss someone off post an animal at a certain rate on your website and for a plethora of reasons that animal todaymay cost 10 or 20 % more than when you put the trophy fee on your website 5 years ago.
As an outfitter it is a constant juggling act to keep pricing information current and still have time to do other things than sit behind your computer all day.
When I post offers here I post the total cost of the hunt broke down into day fees, trophy fees, what is/isn't included as that is the forum rules and the format people are used to seeing here. When I advertise in other venues I may only list the total cost as an all inclusive hunt out the door from arrival to departure for a single price. I as a client prefer that because personally I really don't care that much as how a hunt is broke down (with a few exceptions) and am more interested in total cost and what I get for that cost as opposed to what each individual thing costs.
I completely agree that the 2% for this 3% for that stuff makes me want to drink heavily when I'm trying to figure out a hunt cost. Just add it into the day rate an go on with it. If someone asked then be prepared to completely break down the pricing for them.

Erik, would just like to add. When I am looking at an outfitters web site, I would not expect it to cover all possibility pertaining to number of hunters, non hunters, etc. But it should give the "standard per hunter" day fees including fees, taxes and such, and then of course list the trophy fees for each of the animals that is allowed to be hunted on the property. And include the female or cull fees if they are allowed. By doing so, I know after a few minutes, can I afford to hunt here, and do they have the animals I want to hunt. Then when I contact the outfitter I don't waste his time or mine. I already know if he charges $2500 for a kudu and I can or will only pay $1200, that wasted time phone call or email never occurs! As far as running a business goes, have never done that, so can't comment on it.

 

[mdwest]

I totally get why an outfitter wouldnt want to publish prices online.. Gizmo's point is valid.. lots of variables out there depending on what the hunter actually wants to do.. and the industry is heavily geared toward offering customers customized hunts to meet their needs/requirements... while a lot of hunters might be satisfied with a "generic" blackbuck hunt.. many have something very specific in mind.. and costs will vary as a result..

All that matters to me is that when I see a quote from an outfitter that everything is listed.. there are no hidden fees, no approximations, etc.. Tell me exactly what I am paying for, and exactly what I am paying to for it.. and I'm happy.. I can make a decision from that point..

 

[PeteG]

It's very difficult to standardize the way a hunt offer comes through.
Each country has its own set of fees and charges over and above the trophy rate etc.
the only going that I can see is if you are comparing day rates and trophy fees within a country.
If you look at ranch hunts as opposed to GMA concession hunts in zambia, the concession has a bunch of associated costs.
Including the travel becomes tricky. There are ranches within 2 hours drive of Lusaka or a concession that is a 14 hr drive. Unfortunately for the client, costs like that are hard to absorb into the day rate unless your travel day is being charged out at full hunting day rates of over $1000 per day ( for example).

If an outfitter lists an all in price, then people want to know the breakdown and details, yet when the details are listed and priced they want to know the all in price.
Very difficult to please everyone all the time.

If a hunting concession has a government set quota of 2 kudu per year, and another concession has 10 kudu per year, does it not make sense that the 2 kudu concession would attract a slightly higher fee? I would think so.

In most cases it seems a one on one chat with the outfitter is the only/best way to get down to the details and work out a solution that works for you.

 

[Odinsraven]

As most hunts are tailor made to suit the client .... airport transfers on a 14 day hunt are not a lot 5 day hunt almost 3x .....

I am an outfitter of sorts or booking agent for friends and buddies and it is tough to explain it ....funny thing is some are hunting and fishing guides here in Iceland ......and use dammed near the same formula ........ quite funny actually

 

[TTundra]

I don't mind outfitters charging for extra fees separately from daily rates or trophy fees, AS LONG AS THE EXTRA FEES ARE LISTED CLEARlY AS POSSIBLE UPFRONT.
If I see a hunt offer that has extra fees that are not listed, or at least estimated, I keep moving on. As an example, if the VAT is not included in the trophy fees, JUST BE CLEAR UPFRONT.
Also, if I see a web site that does not have prices listed, or the listed prices are more than a couple years old, I keep moving on.
My 2c.....

+1 on this.

Websites are how you hook your clients, and you only have so many seconds to get their attention before they go to the next. Best to make sure they stay on your page for a while and have some good click thrus. One factor (but not the only factor) that makes me stay on a page and give an outfitter more of a look, is detailed pricing information...a pricing page that looks like time was spent on it. The more information on the page, the more likely I am to inquire about my specifics because its less amount of questions I need to type out in that first email.

 

[gillettehunter]

It's very difficult to standardize the way a hunt offer comes through.
Each country has its own set of fees and charges over and above the trophy rate etc.
the only going that I can see is if you are comparing day rates and trophy fees within a country.
If you look at ranch hunts as opposed to GMA concession hunts in zambia, the concession has a bunch of associated costs.
Including the travel becomes tricky. There are ranches within 2 hours drive of Lusaka or a concession that is a 14 hr drive. Unfortunately for the client, costs like that are hard to absorb into the day rate unless your travel day is being charged out at full hunting day rates of over $1000 per day ( for example).

If an outfitter lists an all in price, then people want to know the breakdown and details, yet when the details are listed and priced they want to know the all in price.
Very difficult to please everyone all the time.

If a hunting concession has a government set quota of 2 kudu per year, and another concession has 10 kudu per year, does it not make sense that the 2 kudu concession would attract a slightly higher fee? I would think so.

In most cases it seems a one on one chat with the outfitter is the only/best way to get down to the details and work out a solution that works for you.

Hi Pete. I can concede some of what your saying is correct. A 14 hour drive is a bit different than a 2 hr. What gripes me is the 2-4 hour drive on a $15,000 plus safari and they want $2-400. Just seems to be
plucking the client clean. Sure there is fuel and time, but can't that be built in and not another line item? I get that we may pay the same amount. Part of it is how we FEEL about what we have to pay.
In your Kudu example if there are only 2 permits it may be because the property is smaller or has less animals. If the 2 are BIGGER then it would make sense to me to charge more. Just because its more exclusive doesn't make the hunting any better. In fact if the low quota is because of lower populations it could be a worse place to go. Then a higher price is in fact not in the clients best interest.
I understand that different countries have different pricing schemes. Sometimes they even make sense.... I also realize that we have to pay in order to play. I also realize that the PH/outfitter have to make $$ or they don't stay in business. I just think some of the little charges are petty and ought to be either free or added under another line. My best Bruce

 

[PeteG]

Hi Pete. I can concede some of what your saying is correct. A 14 hour drive is a bit different than a 2 hr. What gripes me is the 2-4 hour drive on a $15,000 plus safari and they want $2-400

Absolutely 100% agree with this.
It largely depends on where you "want" to hunt as well.
What I would question in addition and probably could class as my peeve, travel days shouldn't have an impact on hunting days.
Let's say you book a 10day hunting safari, I would expect 10 days of hunting. If it's a 6 hr drive there and 6 hrs back, do it before and after the 10days starts. If that needs to be paid for, so be it, but would love to not see that included in th hunt days.

With regard my kudu comment, a lot has to do with the conservation aspect of the concession and the future plans of the area. Not necessarily that there are too few animals to hunt. But I do see your point where a client could worry about an area that only offers a small limited quota. It shouldn't however deter you from talking to the outfitter and discussing the options though.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

As a Hunter on a budget I carefully look at offers for hunts here and on other networks. I doubt that I'm the only one that is turned off by extra fees in hunt offers. Some offers look very good initially until you look at all the extras: to and from airport transport fees, charges for arrival and departure days, charges to deliver your trophies to the taxidermist, rifle permit fee, tax on ammo, arrival and departure fee to inspect your rifle [Kimberly airport plus probably others], government taxes on daily costs and the list could go on. Sometimes I think they'd like to charge me for the air I breathe. After all of the extras, there is then an expectation of tips.........
IMHO hunt offers could be simplified by just increasing the daily rates and giving us a complete price that doesn't require us to break out a calculator for 10 items on the list. I'm in the retail trade. I know you guys are in business to make a profit. I understand competition for hunting clients. I realize that there is a cost to go to an airport to get a client, but on a hunt that costs over $15,000 I would think that could be added in for free. Different story if the client wants to a charter flight.
I sometimes feel like that we, the US hunters in particular, are looked at like the golden goose to be plucked for every dollar that can be gotten. It just flat turns me off. Go through 10-15 hunt offers and you can see what I'm talking about. Rant is over. Bruce

Having seen some of this myself Bruce, as a client I'm very much inclined to agree with you. I know the first outfitter I hunted with in RSA also has an operation in Mozambique. I'm not sure if he still has it on his website, but he at least used to have every nickle and dime identified on his website and it kind of made a mess when you tried to figure out the bottom line. Personally I don't care if 2% is to cover the scout, 5% is to cover the local community or anything else like that. Just tell me the bottom line, it's just not necessary to explain to me where each and every dollar goes to. That kind of info is just noise and confuses things.

But I definitely do not wish to get surprised by things either. So if you tell me this is the out the door price, it had better be unless something extra that was not agreed to initially is added.

Now after having said that, I'll offer a contrarian point of view. Please don't take this as disagreeing with you, just that I've been on the "other side of the table" for a few years now. At the shows every so often we'll become aware of an offer that immediately on the surface seems crazy low.

Now this could just be a so called "loss leader" where the outfitter offers a few animals over a few days that taken on it's own would result in either a loss or no profit at best. But they make the offer in the hopes you'll add days and/or animals to the list and hope they make a profit that way, I'm sure you know that game.

But the other way to play that game, is to nickle and dime that person on all the other fees such as delivery of animals to the taxidermist or what have you. Personally I find this short sighted and likely an outfitter will not build up a base of return clients much less clients who will refer you to others.

Now if you're an outfitter that doesn't want to jerk people around like that, what do you do? Your suggestion is to have it covered by increased daily rates. A fair suggestion, but you have to explain that to someone who asks why your daily rate is higher? For someone who is experienced like yourself and presuming the explanation is accurate you'll get it and understand. For that person who is looking at their first trip, they might not. As such charging the same daily rate, or at least reducing it and thus not cover the cost of some other item until it's itemized later, may be the only way the new guy starts to understand how to make an apples to apples comparision when shopping for a hunt.

Again not disagreeing with you at all Bruce. I'm totally with you from a client's perspective. The challenge is that an outfitter has to be able to communicate with both the experienced hunter as well as the inexperienced, what works for one does not necessarily for the other.

 

[AfricaHunting.com]

The challenge is that an outfitter has to be able to communicate with both the experienced hunter as well as the inexperienced, what works for one does not necessarily for the other.

I could not agree with you more PHIL, certainly a difficult position for outfitters to be in.

Many hunters will right away reject outfitters just based on looking at their daily rates pricing so by including in the daily rates government taxes, arrival and departure days, fees, transfers, permits, licenses, scouts, gun rental, pre-baiting, baiting, beverages, delivery of trophies to taxidermist, etc... an outfitter will not be in the position to compete at a glance with most outfitters who do not include all or most of these extras in their daily rates pricing. We have all seen also the hunting outfitter who has zero daily rates and only charges high trophy fees...

One can always contact an outfitter to request an all inclusive price tailored around one's specific hunting safari.

 

[Uintaelkhunter]

Having seen some of this myself Bruce, as a client I'm very much inclined to agree with you. I know the first outfitter I hunted with in RSA also has an operation in Mozambique. I'm not sure if he still has it on his website, but he at least used to have every nickle and dime identified on his website and it kind of made a mess when you tried to figure out the bottom line. Personally I don't care if 2% is to cover the scout, 5% is to cover the local community or anything else like that. Just tell me the bottom line, it's just not necessary to explain to me where each and every dollar goes to. That kind of info is just noise and confuses things

He still has the area Phil i still talk to Ian and see Wayne's mom a few times per year.

As to the 2% gov fees as such I believe they do this just as we look at there offers I believe they have government officials looking at there advertizing as well and we all know how government wants there cut.

I'm with you though I hate to see all the little ads on's I just want a total price so I know what to budget and compair to similar outfitters. Having helped a few friends with there first time trip I have had one want a breakdown of every cost though

 

[siml]

@PHOENIX PHIL spot on, show the bottom line.