Politics

[mdwest]

The problem is that in a lot of cases the problem is not black and white. A guy having mental issues might decide to grab a knife and attack etc., etc..

Having worked A LOT of mental health calls, I can tell you that this is 100% spot on..

When people (family member or otherwise) are having issues with another person that has mental health problems.. if the person isnt violent and/or isnt a threat, they typically dont call 911.. they either try to sit down with the person themselves (not always a bright idea).. or they will call a homeless shelter.. or they will call a mental health clinic, etc (whatever they think is appropriate)..

the overwhelming majority of mental health calls to 911 are tied to someone with mental health issues being violent or otherwise conducting a criminal act (more often than not it is an extreme case of "disturbing the peace")..

An example I can give from when I was on the streets.. we had a homeless guy named "Eddie" that hung around in the ward that I typically worked..

Eddie had a bicycle that he rode around town on... most of the time he'd just rummage through dumpsters looking for "treasures".. at any given time he'd have 30-40lbs of random stuff slung all over his bike.. he was pretty well known to everyone in the area.. and generally harmless.. the people at the Flying J truck stop would usually feed him a couple of times a day.. and he'd for the most part keep to himself..

But about once a week or so you'd find him on the corner of 7th and Broadway at the edge of a gas station parking lot (always the same spot for some reason), absolutely raising hell.. ranting and raving at every passing car... running customers off from the gas station.. etc.. so the gas station would call the police and have someone come out to run Eddie off..

The problem was Eddie was as strong as a bull... and Eddie ALWAYS had multiple knives among his "treasures"... and Eddie NEVER would agree to go to a shelter or to allow a mental health professional work with him, etc.. AND.. Eddie didnt mind going to jail.. he was perfectly cool with getting a warm bed and a few meals until his arraignment, where the judge would rescind him to custodial care, where he'd never show up, etc..etc.. (the system is a failure pretty much from end to end).. and he'd be back out riding his bike searching for treasure in 48 hours.. (without exaggerating this happened at least a couple of dozen times while I worked the area.. Im sure its happened hundreds of times over all the years)...

90% of the time you could roll up, get out of the car, etc.. Eddie would yell at you and keep hell raising.. you'd try to talk and reason with him for a few minutes and size the situation up.. and one of two things would happen... either Eddie wanted a bed and a meal.. so he would purposefully start a fight with you, often brandishing something like a knife or a hammer, etc.. which would get you to pepper spray him (we didnt have tasers at the time)... or.. he didnt really need a meal (Flying J had just fed him).. so he'd move on... he had no interest in talking with you.. and if you forced it, the fight would occur...

I dont care how good a social worker or mental health counselor you are... Eddie was not a case for you to deal with in the street...

and Eddie is exemplar of the overwhelming majority of mental health calls that cops respond to..

We had another "frequent flyer" mental health guy in the ward.. a HUGE guy.. probably 6'6", 290lbs.. that was in his mid 20's, but had the mental capacity of a 3 year old.. and like a 3 year old, he'd occasionally throw temper tantrums... the problem is you can control a 3 year old during a tantrum... controlling a 290 lb 3 year old however is another issue all together..

He lived at home with his mother and two sisters.. they were able to keep him under control most of the time.. but at least a couple of times a year we ended up getting called to the house because he was breaking things, physically threatening his sisters, etc..

At one point we literally had to bring the SWAT team to the house (I was on SWAT at the time)... he had armed himself with a piece of rebar that was about 3' long, had busted out a couple of windows in the house, was bleeding pretty badly, and wouldnt let his sisters leave (mom wasnt there at the time.. I cant remember why)... we ended up having to shoot him with a couple of "rubber rockets" after hitting the house with multiple canisters of CS just to take him into custody.. and it took the entire 6 man stack dog piling him to get him to the ground to be able to restrain him to begin with..

And.. once again.. just a few days later the courts released him.. didnt put him into a mental health institution.. just let him go back home to his moms place.. etc..etc..

again, not a call you send a social worker to for resolution..

I could go on and on and on about suicide threats, suicide by cop attempts, etc..etc.. and give a hundred reasons why making the decision to send a "counselor" of any type in first is a VERY bad decision..

I always find it interesting how guys that have never worked the streets in a major metro area (in any capacity.. garbage worker, cop, fire fighter, ambulance driver, dog catcher, etc.. doesnt matter.. just be a guy on the streets that knows and understand how things work, and why they work (or dont work) the way they do... think they have a better solution....

Things are far from perfect.. and there are things about the direction American law enforcement is moving that concern me (its becoming way to militarized in my opinion for example).. but... thousands of career police administrators, backed by tens of thousands of other experts across a variety of fields, combined with the courts, the hospitals, etc.. have created a system that for the most part works...

But we think a DJ has a better idea and can "fix" a problem as complex as mental health calls to police departments....

Who exactly is advising him would be my question? Or is he getting any advice from anyone that actually knows anything at all?

 

[Saul]

Please correct me if I am mistaken, but I thought several California cities tried piloting a social worker only response program, and they found that in the vast majority of cases, the social worker ultimately had to call for police response.

That is not to say that there is no role for social workers to respond WITH police to certain calls, and I think this could be a better use of resources than investing heavily in training officers to be able to handle such cases.

 

[Brent in Az]

NYC residents voted for this sh1t cake, let them eat it.

I have a goofy cousin that lives in NYC. Part of the dyed hair crowd. I'm sure she voted for it.

 

[rookhawk]

Please correct me if I am mistaken, but I thought several California cities tried piloting a social worker only response program, and they found that in the vast majority of cases, the social worker ultimately had to call for police response.

That is not to say that there is no role for social workers to respond WITH police to certain calls, and I think this could be a better use of resources than investing heavily in training officers to be able to handle such cases.

My wife's cousin is one of these fellows in CA. He rides along with PD, wears a bullet proof vest, and tries to negotiate with the mentally ill on PD calls.

He's a bit of a bleeding heart, so he likes his job. I do not know whether he is effective or not because I'm not sure those that do not want therapy react positively to "therapy in the moment of crisis".

The root problem is we have a homeless-industrial complex in CA that involves NGOs, Politicians, and other distorted interests in keeping people "walking zombies" as Elon Musk describes them. Institutionalization is the only remedy for the homeless because homelessness is a symptom, mental illness and drug abuse are the root causes.

 

[mdwest]

Please correct me if I am mistaken, but I thought several California cities tried piloting a social worker only response program, and they found that in the vast majority of cases, the social worker ultimately had to call for police response.

That is not to say that there is no role for social workers to respond WITH police to certain calls, and I think this could be a better use of resources than investing heavily in training officers to be able to handle such cases.

I think there is definitely a role for social workers to play.. they just arent, and never should be, first responders..

I had a HUGE amount of appreciation for our child services guys and gals when I was on the street... maybe I was just blessed, but I never dealt with any of them that werent absolute professionals, and 100% committed to making sure children were cared for..

Whenever I had to deal with a child abuse or child neglect case I immediately called them and asked them to come out and help.. and was super thankful that there are people out there like them that are not only able, but willing to deal with some of the most sad and depressing parts of humanity..

But... I cant think of a single call I ever made where there was child abuse or neglect involved where the case worker should have arrived first.. in fact, in the overwhelming majority of those cases it very likely would not have gone well for the case worker and not only the case worker, but the child would have been put in a position of extreme risk..

and there were absolutely mental health cases I worked where a mental health professional wasnt just needed, but WANTED... if once I arrived on a scene I found someone in a really bad place (depression, or confusion, etc) that wasnt acting violent or acting like they were going to hurt themselves immediately, I would call and get a mental health guy inbound as fast as they could get there (CIT or otherwise).. I would just try to sit and chat with the person the best I could.. but I know Im not the right guy for that job.. there are people out there that can do it a whole lot better than I could...

the truth however is those situations were the exception, not the norm... the norm was the call that involved violence, self hurt, or a crime being committed... ultimately someone else would get called in to finish the job... but the first task is always to secure the scene, and remove the threat of violence before you bring someone else in..

the one exception to the above was when dealing with elderly folks that had conditions like dementia, Alzheimer's, etc that might wander off and get lost or get separated from loved ones.. while those cases on occasion could turn violent.. most of the time you were just dealing with some guy that was distraught and confused and very upset.. he just needed someone to console him, calm him, assure him it was going to be ok, and then to help him find "home" and/or people he could recognize and/or trust.. those are the only cases I can think of off the top of my head where cops are often called and sent in first (usually concerns for the persons safety is why), where what was needed more than anything else was just a kind and friendly face that understood how to help them, and was willing to do it..

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I have a goofy cousin that lives in NYC. Part of the dyed hair crowd. I'm sure she voted for it.

Offer her a cup of organic vegan coffee to have with the cake.

 

[HWL]

Why they don't just leave Europe?

HWL

Assuming most Europeans agree with you, why hasn’t Germany told the US to pack up and leave yet? (FWIW I think Poland and a few other countries would love for Germany to do that.. they’d welcome the economic advantages of a US military installation on their soil… they’d welcome additional defense advantage would simply be icing on the cake)…

If the other NATO nations don’t find value in their partnership with the US, why not simply form a new alliance that doesn’t include the US…

Last I checked the Brits love the F15 and F35 squadrons at Lakenheath… they bring a ton of money to the region, and the joint training they do with the RAF has been invaluable to them…

The Poles seem pretty happy about Camp Kosciuszko… you might recall that US V Corps HQ was in Germany until 2013… we moved it to Poland in 2020… the economy around Poznan appears to be doing well with the influx of senior US military officers and support personnel as well as the increased number of troops now coming to Poland to train, etc..

The Italians appear to love the US 173rd Airborne being in Vicenza.. and they absolutely love the US 6th Fleet being based in Naples…

So maybe the problem is a German one rather than a European one? And maybe your linear view of the value being only in defense and forgetting about all of the economic and other political advantages that come with the bases isn’t all that well thought out..

I wonder what Kaiserslautern would look like in 5 years if Ramstein Air Base left tomorrow and how many Germans within about a 30 mile radius would feel about it after the local economy collapsed.. 6200 Germans are employed by the base and 54,000 Germans are employed by companies that support the base..

You again do not understand!
We do not need an unreliable ally.
At any price!
Your senat or your president does a fart into the wrong direction, and the US are not willing to fight with us any longer.
We do not need that, we can take care of ourselves.
China or Russia or both would like to cooperate with Europe!
There is no shortage of partners.

HWL

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

You again do not understand!
We do not need an unreliable ally.
At any price!
Your senat or your president does a fart into the wrong direction, and the US are not willing to fight with us any longer.
We do not need that, we can take care of ourselves.
China or Russia or both would like to cooperate with Europe!
There is no shortage of partners.

HWL

“China or Russia or both would like to cooperate with Europe!”

I’m sure this would work out swimmingly

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

“China or Russia or both would like to cooperate with Europe!”

I’m sure this would work out swimmingly

I’ll bet you think honey badgers wouldn’t make wonderful house pets!!

 

[mdwest]

You again do not understand!
We do not need an unreliable ally.
At any price!
Your senat or your president does a fart into the wrong direction, and the US are not willing to fight with us any longer.
We do not need that, we can take care of ourselves.
China or Russia or both would like to cooperate with Europe!
There is no shortage of partners.

HWL

you again fail to understand..

Europe does not share your opinion.. YOU stated EUROPE in your post...

The UK continues to welcome US forces, Italy continues to welcome US forces, Poland continues to welcome US forces, Spain and Portugal have major US military installations and continue to welcome US forces, Greece, Netherlands, Turkey, and Belgium all have US military installations and continue to welcome them.. and truthfully, whether YOU like it or not, the German government continues to welcome them as well... or we'd be seeing the German government doing something to remove them..

the US military presence in Europe is not only about defense for European nations.. it is also about the economy.. and the US military contributes substantially to those economies..

Germany could ask the US to leave tomorrow... why do you not think your politicians have made that happen yet?

You may not like the current US President... you may not like the current US Senate.. but Germany had no problem letting its own military fall into a state of decay for numerous past US presidents and senates... whose fault is that?

If you think Germany is capable of taking care of itself militarily you either have no clue about Germanys current military capability or no understanding of the threats surrounding Germany...

Perhaps if can in a few years if it will actually invest in its own defense to the degree necessary to meet its threats.. Currently Germany has exactly ZERO 5th Generation fighters.. Its got US F35's on order.. and oh, by the way, the German company Rheinmettal is producing the fuselages for those F35's.. and making a ton of money in the process... Germany has exactly ZERO nuclear submarines and manages only a fleet of 6 diesel subs.. Germany has exactly ZERO nuclear munitions.. but hosts a LOT of US nuclear munitions that act as deterrents against Russian aggression (Ukraine has no nukes anymore by the way.. and no nuke deterrent against Russian aggression).. The German Army is NOT meeting its own established strength requirements and has not met those requirements since 2018.. It is currently short about 20,000 soldiers from its minimum manning...

If you think Germany, today, is prepared to take care of itself militarily.. I'd love to know how youve come to that conclusion..

Germany is not NATO.. and the rest of NATO does not agree with you (see all countries in Europe above that are still very happy to have a US military presence and the reasons they are happy to have it).... If Germany is to "take care of itself" it needs NATO or some other alliance to be able to do so..

If you think you'd prefer to partner with China or Russia.. by all means do so..

I think its pretty comical that you believe either of those nations would treat you any better... but.. please, convince your politicians to do so... lets give it 20 years or so and see how things turn out for Germany...

You dont like Donald Trump... so what? Do you really think that anyone cares at this point? Do you really believe your opinion matters? If it does, why isnt your country doing anything about it?

If you havent figured it out.. A lot of people dont like Donald Trump.. to include a lot of Americans... which by the way includes a lot of AH members..

Do you believe crying about it online fixes anything or changes anyones opinion? Really? Surely youre smarter than that..

 

[jeanes]

IIRC, the last time Russia cooperated with Europe Poland got the shaft.

 

[Nyati]

You do realize that both numerically and proportionately more Europeans live in the US than US citizens live in Europe correct?

1.7m US citizens live in Europe out of a population of approximately 340m..

4.7m Europeans currently live in the US out of a population of 744m..

And we sorta hope Europe keeps Rosie, Robin Wright, and Richard Gere..

We’d really appreciate it if you guys would convince Harry to go home.. and if he could take George Soros with him, that would be swell…

Sorry to disappoint you, but Richard has recently gone back to the USA

So you keep him, we have enough lefties of our own

 

[Tanks]

China or Russia or both would like to cooperate with Europe!

In regard to Russia, weren't they one of the countries that guaranteed Ukraine's security in return for removal of nuclear weapons from Ukraine?

 

[Brent in Az]

Offer her a cup of organic vegan coffee to have with the cake.

Nah ...they deserve to eat it dry with no lube.

 

[Brent in Az]

Another 20 years and German's may be praying to Allah, if you keep letting you know who in.

 

[rookhawk]

Another 20 years and German's may be praying to Allah, if you keep letting you know who in.

Liberal white college-age students from upper middle class families?

Whenever a problem is in the paper from a "diverse community" its always run by the rich little suburban marxists.

 

[Brent in Az]

Liberal white college-age students from upper middle class families?

Whenever a problem is in the paper from a "diverse community" its always run by the rich little suburban marxists.

I was referring to the Neanderthal migrants from other areas of the world.

 

[rookhawk]

I was referring to the Neanderthal migrants from other areas of the world.

I know. I’m just saying that behind the mask of those, is the other. Soros and suburban Marxist white kids are the ringleaders and importers.

 

[Brent in Az]

I know. I’m just saying that behind the mask of those, is the other. Soros and suburban Marxist white kids are the ringleaders and importers.

Much of that happened under Merkel's watch. No doubt she's tied into that faction. She is also responsible for blocking Ukraine and Georgia expanding NATO

 

[Doug Hamilton]

About as well as sending out a cop to do a health check on someone with mental problems. Different tools for different situations. No one expects a social worker to roll in and stop a bank heist, and not every call needs a cop. Some calls might need one of each.

If a competent (key word) mental health professional can be found and available (another key word),' sending one out to assist with a person who is having mental health.issues it could be useful. The problem is that these people are rare. I have a degree in Social and Behavioral Science. I worked in prisons as an officer, sergeant and Shift Commander over 22 years. I was credited with.reducing the number of "use of force" incidents during my time at a men's prison. You cannot talk every mentally deranged, violent individual out of it. In my experience, most police officers have training to defuse most situations, but there will always be times where force is the only option in dealing with.violent, dangerous people. Sending a social worker out instead of a police officer will more often lead to to a poor result.