Budgets and priorities

[steve white]

Personally I think the entire premise of 20-something’s owning a house is flawed. Understanding that we all have different backgrounds here but in my family I can think of exactly two people who have achieved that.

The first was my maternal grandmother who married an older widower. At the tender age of 21 she was helping to dig out the basement— while pregnant! The other was my father. After returning from WWII he and mom moved in with my grandmother but not until Dad built an apartment in the back of the house. Then he saved enough to purchase a lot and built our house himself, working nights and weekends. Concrete work was hired out but everything else (framing, plumbing, electrical, masonry, etc) was done by him with occasional help from friends and relatives. When our family moved in he was just short of 30 years old. It was a good sized house, about 900 sq ft.

We did our own automobile maintenance and repairs, etc. I still do except for the bigger jobs like replacing a clutch. Need daycare? Her name was either “Mom” or “Grandma” or sometimes “Aunt.” Big dinner celebration? No fancy restaurants or carry out, you set up the sawhorses or folding tables and everyone came over to the house where the ladies cooked up a storm (it made for good bonding as well). The main lesson was that you never paid somebody else to do what you can do yourself.

I also well remember my sister and her husband using empty cable spools for a table until they could afford proper furniture. Or second hand from family and friends. They made-do while saving until they could afford better.

Of course that meant you (or your family/friend network) possessed those skills. Contrast that to current day. A young relative who is getting married asked me to talk to her fiancé about adding some tools to the wedding registry. As we got into the conversation I realized the extent of the problem when he asked me, “so when you talk about 3/8” and 1/2” drive socket sets what does drive mean?” I was flabbergasted that a man approaching 30 didn’t know this. Needless to say he doesn’t currently own a decent set of tools. At least he seems willing to learn, so we can fix that.

Granted there are some jobs too physically demanding or require specialized skills but… Self sufficiency to the extent possible. You’ll never save for a house (or anything else) by paying someone else to do what you should be able to do for yourself. Allocation of available resources.

Your post makes me play back a lot of childhood memories!

 

[steve white]

Being in my 30’s this thread made me feel like I’m doomed.

Guess it’s time to start planning my next dangerous game hunt. Maybe I won’t come home and have to worry about the other stuff

You're YOUNG, you're far from doomed. If you can climb mountains, you can do anything you need to do!
You'll want to start the saving/investing asap, to give compound interest time to work for you.

 

[Alistair]

I’m so tired of hearing “Our grandparents could buy a house on one salary, but now we can’t even afford rent on two!”
Yeah, because Grandma wasn’t blowin’ half her paycheck on $12 iced coffee and avocado toast, that’s why!

Back then, if they wanted coffee, they made it at home. With grounds so strong it could remove rust. You didn’t drink it… you survived it.

And Grandma wasn’t out there “brunchin’.” You think she had time for brunch? No! She was at home, cooking something called whatever’s left in the house.

And don’t even bring up Uber Eats.

These people today are crying about money while living in a 4-bedroom house with two SUVs, six streaming services, and matching sleeve tattoos. You think Grandpa had a tattoo? Yeah it said “Korea, 1951.” And it came with nightmares, not realitic shading.

Oh, don’t even get me started on the kids. “We can’t make ends meet, but Brayden needs the new iPhone!” No, he doesn’t! You’re giving an $1100 phone to a kid who still eats glue and boogers.

When we were kids, the family phone hung on the wall. It had a cord long enough to jump rope with, and if you wanted privacy, you had to go stand in the pantry. And somehow, we survived.

And the TV? There was one. One.
It was in the living room, and Dad controlled it. If he wanted to watch bowling, guess what? You liked bowling.

Now every room’s got a 65-inch screen, the baby’s got an iPad, and you’re sitting there wondering why you can’t afford rent.
Because you’re living like rappers, that’s why!

Grandpa wasn’t out here leasing Teslas and buying $12 smoothies called “Detox Sunrise.” He was driving a truck that sounded like thunder and smelled like oil and cigarettes.

They lived within their means. Whatever Grandpa’s paycheck bought, that’s what they had. They didn’t try to keep up with the Joneses. They were just trying to keep the family fed and a roof over their heads.

So yeah, Grandpa could buy a house on one salary. But he also didn’t have 47 subscriptions and emotional-support crystals. He had one support system, Grandma, who told him to suck it up and mow the yard.

Now folks are broke, tired, and stressed… and it’s not because of inflation… it’s because y’all keep ordering tacos from DoorDash like you’re royalty.

Wake up and smell the truth!!

I think I did this debate already on a different thread, but I'll give it another go, this time with a personal anecdote as data didn't seem effective last time.

I don't care very much about the 'fancy house' thing, never have, so when I bought my house in 2022, I intentionally chose something pretty small and pretty cheap.

It's a 3 bed, 1.5bath, 1500sqft house in Milwaukee. Built in the 1930's, and in a traditionally 'blue collar / lower middle class' neighborhood with a big Latin American population. Safe, low crime, nice people, close to the office, but not 'fancy' or especially 'desirable'.

It's everything I need what with me living alone, and for my salary it's very affordable.


That's not interesting. But what is interesting, is who I bought it from.

The previous owner was a guy called John C. He'd bought the place in 1984 at the age of 32. I met him when I viewed this place and again at closing. Both times we had a chat about his history with the house and his background. Basic small talk stuff whilst the paperwork got completed.

He worked as a mail carrier for USPS all his life. His wife didn't work.

I expect that buying this house was a real challenge for him back then, and I won't detract from that. Lots of scrimping and saving, lots of sleepless night worrying about money, lots of intentional lifestyle choices. Certainly not much eating out, and no fancy cars.

And yet, in 1984, a mail carrier bought my house on a single salary.


Fast forwards to 2022. I paid $315,000 for the place. In 2025, at least on paper, it's worth $357,000. Still a fair chunk below the median US house price.

A USPS mail carrier, in Milwaukee, is today earning $42,617/yr (https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Postal-Carrier-Salary-in-Milwaukee,WI).

After taxes, they take home $2926/month (https://smartasset.com/taxes/wisconsin-paycheck-calculator#axo5RqtmJp).

This house is worth approximately 8.4x annual gross earnings if John were to do the exact same job, and try to buy the exact same house in 2025.

No matter how hard '2025 John' tries, there is no mathematical way he'd be able to buy the place now on that single income. None.

Let's say '2025 John' still scrimped and saved, just as I'm sure he did in 1984. In doing so, he manages to save roughly 80% of his gross annual salary by 32 and get a 10% deposit. Not easy what with needing to pay for food, and rent, and everything, but not impossible with 5-10 years or so of careful budgeting.

However, worth remembering that finding that 10% in 2025 would require more scrimping and saving today than 1984 John would have done to find 30% down... and 1984 John had rent equalling 10% less of his monthly take home than 2025 John does...

Anyhow, now 2025 John has $35,000 and wants to buy a $357,000 house. Okay, what's the mortgage (including house insurance and property tax)?

$2,660.58 a month. https://www.mortgagecalculator.org/

So, 90.9% of his total monthly take home pay. Yeah...

Even if a bank would underwrite that mortgage, it doesn't matter how careful you are in every other aspect of your spending, the math simply does not math.

It leaves $265.42 a month, for everything else.

Utilities, car insurance, you're already underwater. Plus it'd be nice if you could afford to buy some ramen every once in a while, or you know, buy such luxuries as 'a tank of gas'...

Exact same house. Exact same job. Doable, if difficult, in 1984. Not a hope in 2025.

That's why people can't afford a house on a single salary like they used to, and that's why young people bitch and moan.

Fun fact, John told me that the reason that he was selling... is because he couldn't afford the property tax anymore, what with the skyrocketing value of the place.

I believe him. The property tax rate in Milwaukee is 2.03%. I paid nearly $7,000 for that expense last year, and if you're only earning $35,000 a year after taxes, I can see why that's stressful even without a mortgage.

It's the same story with all the houses round here. The older neighbors are all in lower-middle class professions, and most of them are single salary households. Yet the new families moving in, they're all upper-middle class dual income households.

This isn't gentrification. It's Milwaukee, and this neighborhood still isn't a particularly desirable area. Property prices here are still a fair bit below US median values.

It's just the simple fact that these days a 70th percentile, dual income family, is the bare minimum needed to buy pretty much any house comfortably...

What do the USPS carriers of today do? Or the 30 year old 2025 equivalent of all my older neighbors with their respectable, but lower-middle income jobs?

I guess they rent, then they die. Retirement is probably difficult under that paradigm too, at least 1984 John had 30 odd years of no rent to pay, and got a $315k lump sum at 70 or so out of this place.

Still, these lazy young people should just cut back on those $12 Starbucks I guess... that'll solve their conundrum...

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

You're YOUNG, you're far from doomed. If you can climb mountains, you can do anything you need to do!
You'll want to start the saving/investing asap, to give compound interest time to work for you.

That was a joke …. I’ve been having this conversation day in and day out for over a year with several peers. Personal choices and personal accountability (or lack there of) is what got each of us to exactly where we are today.

I didn’t grow up with much but learned the value of sacrifice, hard work, and saving at a young age. It took roughly 30 years to understand why my parents were rarely at sports games vs friends and even my younger siblings, why we never took family vacations/trips, why our holidays looked different than the rest of the kids in school, why my parents both had 2-3 jobs while I was little, and why I wasn’t “given” a car at 16, but was expected to start working and saving at 12.

All that said I’m in the group of people who owned a home in their 20’s, I also own land elsewhere, I’ve maxed my investments for years, and I hunt Africa annually. Aside from my mortgage (and a recent new car purchase) I’m completely debt free. I could pay off my car tomorrow as well as a significant portion of my mortgage but the interest rates are low enough I’d rather let my money work for me else where earning a higher interest rate.

 

[CBH Australia]

@Alistair Star Bucks mightt not be the only problem but if you don’t make sacrifices it adds to the problem.

I’m fortunate to have been in a time in a town where I could buy something old and affordable and renovate myself and I realise that.

But if I have the mindset I can’t make a difference and have the Starbucks anyway it’s still reducing any opportunity to save. I haven’t been to America but what I see here are young people don’t seem to go without but still want a standard of house that they can’t afford

 

[Alistair]

@Alistair Star Bucks mightt not be the only problem but if you don’t make sacrifices it adds to the problem.

I’m fortunate to have been in a time in a town where I could buy something old and affordable and renovate myself and I realise that.

But if I have the mindset I can’t make a difference and have the Starbucks anyway it’s still reducing any opportunity to save. I haven’t been to America but what I see here are young people don’t seem to go without but still want a standard of house that they can’t afford

That's fair, and the lifestyle creep is a factor and it certainly doesn't help anyone.

But then... I do get it. Your parents tell you 'live within your means, save hard, don't waste money, buy an old car, you'll have a house by 30'. They did that, it worked, that was good advice... in 1980. That'd work for basically any salary.

Yet you do that in 2025, and you're nowhere close, and honestly, you've spent 6 years scrimping and saving to accumulate $30k, only to watch the house you want appreciate 45k and for a mortgage to still be totally impossible... I get why 'screw it, might as well live a little, not like I'm ever winning that game anyway' becomes the mindset.

The good advice for young people in 2025 is different, it's 'Get into the 90th percentile plus for wages'. Do that, you can live the middle class lifestyle. But of course, 90% of people fail to get into the 90th percentile, so, marginally useful advice at a wider population level.

 

[Flbt]

That was a joke …. I’ve been having this conversation day in and day out for over a year with several peers. Personal choices and personal accountability (or lack there of) is what got each of us to exactly where we are today.

I didn’t grow up with much but learned the value of sacrifice, hard work, and saving at a young age. It took roughly 30 years to understand why my parents were rarely at sports games vs friends and even my younger siblings, why we never took family vacations/trips, why our holidays looked different than the rest of the kids in school, why my parents both had 2-3 jobs while I was little, and why I wasn’t “given” a car at 16, but was expected to start working and saving at 12.

All that said I’m in the group of people who owned a home in their 20’s, I also own land elsewhere, I’ve maxed my investments for years, and I hunt Africa annually. Aside from my mortgage (and a recent new car purchase) I’m completely debt free. I could pay off my car tomorrow as well as a significant portion of my mortgage but the interest rates are low enough I’d rather let my money work for me else where earning a higher interest rate.

I think I did this debate already on a different thread, but I'll give it another go, this time with a personal anecdote as data didn't seem effective last time.

I don't care very much about the 'fancy house' thing, never have, so when I bought my house in 2022, I intentionally chose something pretty small and pretty cheap.

It's a 3 bed, 1.5bath, 1500sqft house in Milwaukee. Built in the 1930's, and in a traditionally 'blue collar / lower middle class' neighborhood with a big Latin American population. Safe, low crime, nice people, close to the office, but not 'fancy' or especially 'desirable'.

It's everything I need what with me living alone, and for my salary it's very affordable.


That's not interesting. But what is interesting, is who I bought it from.

The previous owner was a guy called John C. He'd bought the place in 1984 at the age of 32. I met him when I viewed this place and again at closing. Both times we had a chat about his history with the house and his background. Basic small talk stuff whilst the paperwork got completed.

He worked as a mail carrier for USPS all his life. His wife didn't work.

I expect that buying this house was a real challenge for him back then, and I won't detract from that. Lots of scrimping and saving, lots of sleepless night worrying about money, lots of intentional lifestyle choices. Certainly not much eating out, and no fancy cars.

And yet, in 1984, a mail carrier bought my house on a single salary.


Fast forwards to 2022. I paid $315,000 for the place. In 2025, at least on paper, it's worth $357,000. Still a fair chunk below the median US house price.

A USPS mail carrier, in Milwaukee, is today earning $42,617/yr (https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Postal-Carrier-Salary-in-Milwaukee,WI).

After taxes, they take home $2926/month (https://smartasset.com/taxes/wisconsin-paycheck-calculator#axo5RqtmJp).

This house is worth approximately 8.4x annual gross earnings if John were to do the exact same job, and try to buy the exact same house in 2025.

No matter how hard '2025 John' tries, there is no mathematical way he'd be able to buy the place now on that single income. None.

Let's say '2025 John' still scrimped and saved, just as I'm sure he did in 1984. In doing so, he manages to save roughly 80% of his gross annual salary by 32 and get a 10% deposit. Not easy what with needing to pay for food, and rent, and everything, but not impossible with 5-10 years or so of careful budgeting.

However, worth remembering that finding that 10% in 2025 would require more scrimping and saving today than 1984 John would have done to find 30% down... and 1984 John had rent equalling 10% less of his monthly take home than 2025 John does...

Anyhow, now 2025 John has $35,000 and wants to buy a $357,000 house. Okay, what's the mortgage (including house insurance and property tax)?

$2,660.58 a month. https://www.mortgagecalculator.org/

So, 90.9% of his total monthly take home pay. Yeah...

Even if a bank would underwrite that mortgage, it doesn't matter how careful you are in every other aspect of your spending, the math simply does not math.

It leaves $265.42 a month, for everything else.

Utilities, car insurance, you're already underwater. Plus it'd be nice if you could afford to buy some ramen every once in a while, or you know, buy such luxuries as 'a tank of gas'...

Exact same house. Exact same job. Doable, if difficult, in 1984. Not a hope in 2025.

That's why people can't afford a house on a single salary like they used to, and that's why young people bitch and moan.

Fun fact, John told me that the reason that he was selling... is because he couldn't afford the property tax anymore, what with the skyrocketing value of the place.

I believe him. The property tax rate in Milwaukee is 2.03%. I paid nearly $7,000 for that expense last year, and if you're only earning $35,000 a year after taxes, I can see why that's stressful even without a mortgage.

It's the same story with all the houses round here. The older neighbors are all in lower-middle class professions, and most of them are single salary households. Yet the new families moving in, they're all upper-middle class dual income households.

This isn't gentrification. It's Milwaukee, and this neighborhood still isn't a particularly desirable area. Property prices here are still a fair bit below US median values.

It's just the simple fact that these days a 70th percentile, dual income family, is the bare minimum needed to buy pretty much any house comfortably...

What do the USPS carriers of today do? Or the 30 year old 2025 equivalent of all my older neighbors with their respectable, but lower-middle income jobs?

I guess they rent, then they die. Retirement is probably difficult under that paradigm too, at least 1984 John had 30 odd years of no rent to pay, and got a $315k lump sum at 70 or so out of this place.

Still, these lazy young people should just cut back on those $12 Starbucks I guess... that'll solve their conundrum...

Property tax needs to be done away with.

I have a cousin that his kids are grown and have good jobs.
His wife just died. He was thinking of giving the house to one of the kids.
But looking into it said they could not afford it.
It’s on a hoa ( sucks ) but it is what it is. Hoa fees are about 7k a year now.
Insurance and property taxes are the big killer on the home.
It’s in Jacksonville
When he bought it 40 years ago or so it was 270k house
The property tax people say it’s value at 1.3 m now where it’s at and everything.
That’s one hell of a hit on tax

 

[steve white]

Having money saved for opportunity is the reason some folks can buy an English shotgun, cash on the barrel head at a windfall. You had the cash.
Same with business sometimes. Ted Ferguson of Amarillo, Tx. was about to be fired from his job at a business that sold automobile springs--folks broke a lot of them in all the potholes back then. He asked why he was being let go.
"Ted, you haven't done a thing wrong" the boss told him. "I just can't get the bank to loan me another 8 thousand dollars, or I could franchise."
"What would you offer someone who gave you the money?" asked Ted.
"I'd be willing to make them an equal partner" said the boss.
"I have ten thousand in the bank" said Ted.

He had sent all his paycheck during the war to his mother. He had loaned other soldiers money at times till payday, with interest. He had saved and was ready. I KNEW HIM, heard this from his own mouth. He was a millionaire who gave big money to Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Ft. Worth, Tx. I drove him up there when he wrote a big check in 1981. He was brother-in-law of my landlady.

It takes capital. Saving is not impossible, it makes things possible. Few do it.

Sometimes it is easier to acquire than to buy. Crack houses the city has condemned. For a good while, you could buy for a song, BUT the law said you had to live there personally at least five years. The idea was that you would improve the neighborhood.
There are several towns in Texas, half dying, that will GIVE you a lot if you will move there. No. joke.

If it's all impossible, why are the Mexicanos DOING it all over my neighborhood? They are fixer upping like there is no tomorrow. Answer: that's who we used to be.

BTW, what happened to all the folks who weren't ashamed to buy a doublewide trailer as a starter?

 

[steve white]

Here's a plan for you that others are working:
In Mullein Tx one of the biggest industries is foster kids. You would not believe the numbers. It is so far from anything that the kids don't run off. The schools and the churches are geared for the numbers, AND MULTIPLE PEOPLE ARE USING THE CHECK TO PAY OFF THEIR RANCHETTES.

 

[Flbt]

I know or should I say knew a few small places in ga. That would bacilly give you a house if you lived there I think it was 10 years.
The town was built up by a feed mill and paper mill. After they went out of business when people died and left there house to someone. It really was not worth the tax so they house were never calmed.
Had a buddy that was left one he let the town have it. Was not worth the tax. And it would have been to far a drive to work to be able to live there. Now we’re are talking early 90s
So I have no idea about there doing now if they have not unincorporated the town.

Property tax is getting crazy
I have part of gggrandads farm
It’s still used as a farm. Property tax says it worth 5 k a acre for tax purposes.
The last part my dad added back to it he payed $450 a acre.

One of the cousins has 9 acers
Not big enough for the farm exemption they don’t live on it so no homestead
They can only put one house on it. And only because the original house was on that piece.
Normally you would have to have 10 acers for 1 house.
She told me the county says it tax value per acer 16k
She pays more for that 9 acers in tax than I do for the rest of the farm.

I have another plot 1/2 acer so no farm help with the tax the tax value is 10k.
When I got it the tax value was 500$ early 00s

 

[steve white]

I know or should I say knew a few small places in ga. That would bacilly give you a house if you lived there I think it was 10 years.
The town was built up by a feed mill and paper mill. After they went out of business when people died and left there house to someone. It really was not worth the tax so they house were never calmed.
Had a buddy that was left one he let the town have it. Was not worth the tax. And it would have been to far a drive to work to be able to live there. Now we’re are talking early 90s
So I have no idea about there doing now if they have not unincorporated the town.

Property tax is getting crazy
I have part of gggrandads farm
It’s still used as a farm. Property tax says it worth 5 k a acre for tax purposes.
The last part my dad added back to it he payed $450 a acre.

One of the cousins has 9 acers
Not big enough for the farm exemption they don’t live on it so no homestead
They can only put one house on it. And only because the original house was on that piece.
Normally you would have to have 10 acers for 1 house.
She told me the county says it tax value per acer 16k
She pays more for that 9 acers in tax than I do for the rest of the farm.

I have another plot 1/2 acer so no farm help with the tax the tax value is 10k.
When I got it the tax value was 500$ early 00s

My brother is big into bees. In Texas, you qualify for farm exemption if you raise bees on as little as 5 acres! You don't even have to be the one doing the bee keeping. Just a thought YMMV

 

[Flbt]

My brother is big into bees. In Texas, you qualify for farm exemption if you raise bees on as little as 5 acres! You don't even have to be the one doing the bee keeping. Just a thought YMMV

Probably could.
I tried to talk her into planning pines at least timber land has a tax brake.
But she 79 with a husband that getting bad with demita. Or all timers.
So she said she wasn’t to much able to do anything like that.

Her call
You can tell people but they do what the want
To.

Bees are not bad we have 12 hives and hope to split them next spring.

 

[Troubleshooter]

Classic…. Every OZ boomer rant includes Avocado toast and high priced coffee!

Avocado toast - I’ve spent a total of 3 months traveling around OZ and I can’t recall seeing Avocado toast on the menu and never seen a $12 cup of coffee. While I did have Starbucks the other day in the US and the most expensive drink was $7 and yes I do see it as a waste.

......what's avocado toast?......no wait......thank God I don't!

Here I found some for you!

 

[Troubleshooter]

Having money saved for opportunity is the reason some folks can buy an English shotgun, cash on the barrel head at a windfall. You had the cash.
Same with business sometimes. Ted Ferguson of Amarillo, Tx. was about to be fired from his job at a business that sold automobile springs--folks broke a lot of them in all the potholes back then. He asked why he was being let go.
"Ted, you haven't done a thing wrong" the boss told him. "I just can't get the bank to loan me another 8 thousand dollars, or I could franchise."
"What would you offer someone who gave you the money?" asked Ted.
"I'd be willing to make them an equal partner" said the boss.
"I have ten thousand in the bank" said Ted.

He had sent all his paycheck during the war to his mother. He had loaned other soldiers money at times till payday, with interest. He had saved and was ready. I KNEW HIM, heard this from his own mouth. He was a millionaire who gave big money to Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Ft. Worth, Tx. I drove him up there when he wrote a big check in 1981. He was brother-in-law of my landlady.

It takes capital. Saving is not impossible, it makes things possible. Few do it.

Sometimes it is easier to acquire than to buy. Crack houses the city has condemned. For a good while, you could buy for a song, BUT the law said you had to live there personally at least five years. The idea was that you would improve the neighborhood.
There are several towns in Texas, half dying, that will GIVE you a lot if you will move there. No. joke.

If it's all impossible, why are the Mexicanos DOING it all over my neighborhood? They are fixer upping like there is no tomorrow. Answer: that's who we used to be.

BTW, what happened to all the folks who weren't ashamed to buy a doublewide trailer as a starter?

Exactly correct, you save regardless of current circumstances so that you are able to take advantage of the inevitable opportunities which will become available. Investing helps tremendously. Was it not Benjamin Franklin who called compound interest the 8th Wonder of the World?

Many people of all ages bemoan that they “have no money” and say that they want a (house, safari, whatever) but their spending choices tell me about their actual priorities.

 

[Beck]

I know a RV dealer in Missouri, last year they sold 153 units, this year to date 13 units.

And people think things are good.

ouch

 

[Beck]

There is a reason why we are starting to see 50 year mortgages.

My local Ford dealer said that Ford my be offering 15 year loans on trucks in the near future.

And that is just a terrible idea. Average vehicle life in the USA is 12.5 years

 

[Troubleshooter]

The average age of my personal vehicles is 26 years. They tend to last longer when the owner takes care of them himself.

 

[Philip Glass]

Good points. The coffee and eating out is what gets me about people these days. I'm a millionaire (not hard to do these days) and seem to be the only one brown bagging it! Every wage earner in town goes out to eat for lunch these days! No wonder everyone is over weight.

 

[Aaron N]

Here's a plan for you that others are working:
In Mullein Tx one of the biggest industries is foster kids. You would not believe the numbers. It is so far from anything that the kids don't run off. The schools and the churches are geared for the numbers, AND MULTIPLE PEOPLE ARE USING THE CHECK TO PAY OFF THEIR RANCHETTES.

There couldn’t be a more wrong reason for fostering than economic benefit

 

[fourfive8]

My parents and grandparents grew up in and lived through two world wars and a depression. They must have instilled in me an innate sense about security and debt. IMO, unnecessary, foolish debt is the enemy of future security.