Looking for more reach then my .375 ..options?

[Scott CWO]

No matter the distance shot placement still counts. I took a Kodiak brown bear with my 338 LM from 250 yards. No way to get closer without spooking the bear. We were both on a beach with just a log pile between us. Took the shot from behind the log pile and instantly dropped the bear. After a minute you could see the bear try and get up and one more shot stopped that. I grew up on Kodiak and seen bears taken with various calibers including a skinning knife. Even with the big bores if you’re shot placement is poor then you’re gonna have a bad day.

Sure people do it but it’s not the best practice and for every good outcome, there are more poor outcomes. You’ve shot one bear. I’ve been there for dozens. Nobody would advocate shooting an African lion at 250 yards and a brown bear is not much different. It’s not a deer or moose. It’s DG.

 

[khesser]

Thank you for that...

For "Dangerous Game" hunting especially cape buffalo where shots are often within 50 yards wouldn't the 375 RUM be better?

At that distance the 375 RUM probably a better choice. Bullet choice also is a factor as well. But you can see at 100 yards they are very close in ballistics and by 200 yards you can see the better BC of the 338 bullet is carrying more energy.

 

[Carnivore hunter]

At that distance the 375 RUM probably a better choice. Bullet choice also is a factor as well. But you can see at 100 yards they are very close in ballistics and by 200 yards you can see the better BC of the 338 bullet is carrying more energy.

Yes. Also, the 338 Lapua Improved is roughly around 150fps to 200fps faster than the regular 338 Lapua.

 

[khesser]

Yes. Also, the 338 Lapua Improved is roughly around 150fps to 200fps faster than the regular 338 Lapua.

Yeah and I’m not sure I’d want one in a 10lb rifle. Mine is already a handful when you squeeze the trigger.

 

[khesser]

Sure people do it but it’s not the best practice and for every good outcome, there are more poor outcomes. You’ve shot one bear. I’ve been there for dozens. Nobody would advocate shooting an African lion at 250 yards and a brown bear is not much different. It’s not a deer or moose. It’s DG.

Now no one might advocate it but I’m confident if given the chance I could one and done one at that distance. Now the debate really is not that can a Lion be killed at that distance but is that the type of hunt you want to experience.

 

[Aaron N]

I haven't because living in canada it would be impossible to obtain

There are a couple suppliers

Cutting Edge Bullets – George's Shooting Shack

georgesshootingshack.ca

Cutting Edge : Hirsch Precision Inc., Shooting Sports Supplies

Hirsch Precision Inc. : Cutting Edge - Ammunition Accessories Reloading Gun Parts Optics Firearms CLEARANCE Optics Extras Hirsch Precision, Lapua, RCBS, Forster, Sightron Optics , Nightforce Optics, Target Shooting, Sniper, Hunting, Brass, Bullets, Ammunition, Competition, Tactical, Reloading...

www.hirschprecision.com

If you're close to the border, you can get an US mailbox, have CEB ship them there and drive them across. That's the route I take.

 

[Scott CWO]

Now no one might advocate it but I’m confident if given the chance I could one and done one at that distance. Now the debate really is not that can a Lion be killed at that distance but is that the type of hunt you want to experience.

I knew when I posted that someone who has done it would spout off about shooting DG over 200 yards. Lol. Here we go!

DG doesn’t always go bang flop. I’m a pretty fair shot and used to shoot competitively. The animal has a say in the matter. Like you, I’ve seen DG die easily from a well-placed proper cartridge bullet. I’ve also seen DG defy all logic and live through perfectly placed shots for a short time that leave me scratching my head in disbelief. Like I said, it’s DG, not a deer or kudu. One of my fellow guides and two hunters once shot a 10’6” brown bear 21 times before it finally died 5 yards from the guide. Several of those shots were normally fatal hits but tell that to the bear.

You realize 200 yards is two football fields? Isn’t that far enough?? You or I could PROBABLY kill a lion or brown bear at 500 yards if everything went well but the chances of a problem go WAY up.

Get back to me when you’ve had to follow up a wounded lion or brown bear. Or had multiple close calls or friends almost die. Foolish.

 

[Carnivore hunter]

I knew when I posted that someone who has done it would spout off about shooting DG over 200 yards. Lol. Here we go!

You realize 200 yards is two football fields? Isn’t that far enough?? You or I could PROBABLY kill a lion or brown bear at 500 yards if everything went well but the chances of a problem go WAY up.

Get back to me when you’ve had to follow up a wounded lion or brown bear. Or had multiple close calls or friends almost die. Foolish.

Is ALL 200+ yard shots on dangerous game bad and unethical or just with certain calibers and certain shooters?

If a highly skilled marksman shoots a lion or brown bear at 200+ yards with a 50 BMG, 375 Cheytec or 416 Cheytac is that unethical and stupid?

 

[BJH65]

Is ALL 200+ yard shots on dangerous game bad and unethical or just with certain calibers and certain shooters?

If a highly skilled marksman shoots a lion or brown bear at 200+ yards with a 50 BMG, 375 Cheytec or 416 Cheytac is that unethical and stupid?

I think most guides recognize that there is perhaps an additional level of stress for the hunter of DG that have horn, tooth and claw and always a good idea to get as close as possible to account for this, usually 100 yards or less.

I’m sure the guide will assess the hunters ability and competence. I shot a large grizzly in Alaska at 200 yards with a 300 Win Mag, this was as close as we could get, but I had a rock solid rest on a hump of tundra in the prone position.

 

[Scott CWO]

Is ALL 200+ yard shots on dangerous game bad and unethical or just with certain calibers and certain shooters?

If a highly skilled marksman shoots a lion or brown bear at 200+ yards with a 50 BMG, 375 Cheytec or 416 Cheytac is that unethical and stupid?

Not worth the risk in most cases. That’s the point.

Hypothetical questions. How about an M1A1 Abrams?

 

[khesser]

I knew when I posted that someone who has done it would spout off about shooting DG over 200 yards. Lol. Here we go!

DG doesn’t always go bang flop. I’m a pretty fair shot and used to shoot competitively. The animal has a say in the matter. Like you, I’ve seen DG die easily from a well-placed proper cartridge bullet. I’ve also seen DG defy all logic and live through perfectly placed shots for a short time that leave me scratching my head in disbelief. Like I said, it’s DG, not a deer or kudu. One of my fellow guides and two hunters once shot a 10’6” brown bear 21 times before it finally died 5 yards from the guide. Several of those shots were normally fatal hits but tell that to the bear.

You realize 200 yards is two football fields? Isn’t that far enough?? You or I could PROBABLY kill a lion or brown bear at 500 yards if everything went well but the chances of a problem go WAY up.

Get back to me when you’ve had to follow up a wounded lion or brown bear. Or had multiple close calls or friends almost die. Foolish.

You’re the one I feel wants to make a spectacle of this post.

You give examples of animals not going down easily and I ask at what distance were these animals shot at?

Do you also frown upon bow hunters that go after DG with a guide backing them up with a rifle. I personally think anyone going after a big brownie with a bow is half crazy but hey it’s their ass if it doesn’t go well.

I have gone after a wounded Kodiak brown bear a friend shot. Thankfully when we found him he had expired so no close call.

 

[Scott CWO]

You’re the one I feel wants to make a spectacle of this post.

You give examples of animals not going down easily and I ask at what distance were these animals shot at?

Do you also frown upon bow hunters that go after DG with a guide backing them up with a rifle. I personally think anyone going after a big brownie with a bow is half crazy but hey it’s their ass if it doesn’t go well.

I have gone after a wounded Kodiak brown bear a friend shot. Thankfully when we found him he had expired so no close call.

You’re the one talking about that you would shoot a lion at 250 yards. Luckily, there’s probably not a trained PH in Africa that would allow it and you’re not allowed to hunt lion on your own. Now we know why laws are put in place.

I have guided bow hunters with the agreement that I will shoot the bear if it goes wrong.

I think we have all seen animals die very quickly from a well placed arrow or bullet. Many of us have also seen animals defy logic and take long enough to die that could have or did injure someone. You’ve got to draw the line somewhere. For me with brown bears, it’s 200 yards but that’s still no guarantee of anything.

 

[khesser]

You’re the one talking about that you would shoot a lion at 250 yards. Luckily, there’s probably not a trained PH in Africa that would allow it and you’re not allowed to hunt lion on your own. Now we know why laws are put in place.

I have guided bow hunters with the agreement that I will shoot the bear if it goes wrong.

I think we have all seen animals die very quickly from a well placed arrow or bullet. Many of us have also seen animals defy logic and take long enough to die that could have or did injure someone. You’ve got to draw the line somewhere. For me with brown bears, it’s 200 yards but that’s still no guarantee of anything.

My saying I’m confident comes from knowing what my rifle and bullet choice are capable at given distances. When I can look at the data and see my rifle and bullet combination delivers more energy at 250 yards than some DG rifles deliver at 50 or a 100 yards shows it’s not so much the distance as it is what you are using to hunt with.

You have a 200 yard limit. Do you base that off of the rifle, bullet, or shooter? I have seen hunters I wouldn’t trust to make a 100 yard shot let alone one at 200.

All I’m saying is some arbitrary distance shouldn’t be the determining factor on what is a safe limit or not. Having a firm understanding of ballistics and ones capabilities is far more important. If my 338 delivers more energy at 250 yards than a 300Win Mag at the muzzle why should I be limited to 200 yards?

My comfort zone is not your comfort zone or the next guys. I won’t argue that with more distance comes a greater chance for error but I also do everything to make that error as small as possible.

 

[Beck]

Some interesting perspectives here. I was under the impression that brown bears are often taken at distances from 200-300 yards. I thought I read that in Boddington's "Per Shot North America", maybe I need to read that again or maybe he is just wrong. I do feel like Boddington is usually pretty well informed though.

 

[Beck]

I was wrong, he suggests limiting shots to 250 yards.

 

[colorado]

I absolutely love my model 70 in
375 h&h but i want a caliber that is equivalent in power but has longer reach out and touch them range... Opinions?

Have it rechamberd to 375 Weatherby. Easy, cheap and worthwhile. You can still shoot 375 H&H ammunition through it. I have chrono'd 300g Partitions at 2800 fps through my 375 Weatherby (24" barrel). Should outperform a 338 Win Mag at any reasonable distance. I've also shot 350g Woodleigh HD SPs at 2550 fps through the same rifle. I got my brown bear with factory 375 H&H Remington ammo loaded with 300g A-Frames. It just works.

 

[Rafiki]

I absolutely love my model 70 in
375 h&h but i want a caliber that is equivalent in power but has longer reach out and touch them range... Opinions?

Yes, get closer.

 

[sgt_zim]

Thank you for that...

For "Dangerous Game" hunting especially cape buffalo where shots are often within 50 yards wouldn't the 375 RUM be better?

Not really. Kevin Robertson, a much respected and retired veterinarian and PH from Zimbabwe asserts with decades of experience that about 2400 fps is the ideal MV for 300 gr caliber .375 bullets, as well as 286 gr caliber .366 bullets.

A blogger/podcaster I follow (who's interviewed KR 5 or 6 times) did a gel test with a 300 gr 375 H&H at about 2475 and a 286 gr 9.3x62 at around 2320. While the 375 did make a slightly wider wound-channel, it was out-penetrated by the 9.3x62 by several inches. I don't say that to say 9.3 is preferable, but the higher MV forced the 375 bullet to open slightly wider, causing wider frontal area and more rapid deceleration.

But even at 2550, a 300 gr mono has a very good chance of making an exit wound on a buffalo because they don't open as much as bonded core bullets do. It's for that reason alone that some outfitters don't want to see hunters show up in camp with a 375 (H&H, Wby, RUM, or Ruger) and TSX ammo. A 375 RUM or 378 Wby magnum is even "worse."

 

[Scott CWO]

My saying I’m confident comes from knowing what my rifle and bullet choice are capable at given distances. When I can look at the data and see my rifle and bullet combination delivers more energy at 250 yards than some DG rifles deliver at 50 or a 100 yards shows it’s not so much the distance as it is what you are using to hunt with.

You have a 200 yard limit. Do you base that off of the rifle, bullet, or shooter? I have seen hunters I wouldn’t trust to make a 100 yard shot let alone one at 200.

All I’m saying is some arbitrary distance shouldn’t be the determining factor on what is a safe limit or not. Having a firm understanding of ballistics and ones capabilities is far more important. If my 338 delivers more energy at 250 yards than a 300Win Mag at the muzzle why should I be limited to 200 yards?

My comfort zone is not your comfort zone or the next guys. I won’t argue that with more distance comes a greater chance for error but I also do everything to make that error as small as possible.

I base it off of my experience with clients and advice from my peers and mentors. Guides talk about these types of things when we get together and industry norms are established. Perhaps @1dirthawker will weigh in with his considerable brown bear guiding experience after reading my posts above.

Yes, arbitrary lines are established. In most African countries, the minimum DG caliber is 375. For brown bears, I like to see clients bring a 338 or 375. Colorado has a centerfire .24 caliber minimum for big game and a .50 caliber minimum for muzzleloaders. Colorado and several states have archery broadhead minimums as well. These things are decided based on past issues with weapons and people.

Your confidence is nice but no one is infallible and if you haven’t ever made a poor shot or had an issue in your hunting career, you are either the exception or have not hunted extensively.

 

[sgt_zim]

Is ALL 200+ yard shots on dangerous game bad and unethical or just with certain calibers and certain shooters?

If a highly skilled marksman shoots a lion or brown bear at 200+ yards with a 50 BMG, 375 Cheytec or 416 Cheytac is that unethical and stupid?

The goal, especially for animals with platter-sized hooves or lots of fangs and claws all of which can cover 200 yards in 6 or 7 seconds, is to give yourself the highest probability of a clean, one-shot kill and ensure the animal expires with as little suffering as possible. There is no universe where a 200+ yard shot has the same probability of that as a 50 yard shot.

In war, a wounding shot is nearly as good as a fatal shot. With animals, the metric changes rather drastically.