Politics

[Vashper]

Just exactly what I was thinking. It is why one builds a strong fence to keep the bear contained, and why anyone who has had any close experience with the bear wants to be on the outside of the fence.

Oh, there's no objection to the fence, you're welcome. But moving the fence is a bad idea, it raises objections.

 

[Scott CWO]

Oh, there's no objection to the fence, you're welcome. But moving the fence is a bad idea, it raises objections.

Yes because you don’t like the NATO fence because it stops delusional Russian expansion. No one wants to invade Russia.

 

[Vashper]

.... Must make the average regime apologist and propagandist squirm just a bit.

I have heard more than once that NATO's expansion to the east is not an aggressive step at all, and it does not pose any threat to Russia. And I even read it, and even here. And now it turns out that we have to tremble and cringe. That's the answer to why such events unfolded after the fascist coup in Ukraine.
And what is the purpose of these steps, which are quite expensive, by the way, besides provoking Russia? There is definitely no benefit for Sweden and Finland. Logically speaking, this looks like preparation for an annihilating war against Russia, it is not needed for anything else.

 

[mdwest]

There is definitely no benefit for Sweden and Finland. Logically speaking, this looks like preparation for an annihilating war against Russia, it is not needed for anything else.

Theres no benefit to Sweden and Finland joining NATO?

Sweden was already spending above the NATO standard requirement prior to joining NATO (about 2.4% with an intent to raise spending to as high as 3.5% of GDP). Finland has been spending about 2.4% as well since 2020 and had already made plans to increase to approximately 3% prior to joining NATO.

So, there's no additional cost requirement to those countries.... And there are several benefits (joint training opportunities, access to inteligence/information, protection/security assurances, etc, etc, etc.)..

Finland in particular shares an 820 mile border with Russia, but only has a national population of about 6M people... being a NATO member allows Finland access to additional troops, additional materials, etc to secure its border..

Most studies Ive seen/read speak to the disadvantage to the US in allowing additional countries to enter NATO (the US has historically bankrolled a huge part of the administrative costs associated with NATO as well as has historically spent far more on defense than any NATO member.. adding countries potentially just adds costs to the US tax payer...)... that said, the reports Ive read from CATO and other think tanks that studied the addition of Finland and Sweden to NATO showed that allowing 2 new countries to join that are already spending adequate GDP on defense would be a net positive for the US, and allow the US to retract from Europe a bit and potentially save the US money while still allowing Europe reasonable pre positioned defense from Russia and/or any other perceived or real threats..

What detriments do you see in Finland and Sweden joining NATO? The only detriment I see is for Russia. Everything I am reading, seeing, and understanding is its a net positive for Finland, Sweden, NATO, and the US.

 

[Vashper]

Yes because you don’t like the NATO fence because it stops delusional Russian expansion. No one wants to invade Russia.

Scott CWO, that's not convincing. I remember the events of the 90s well. Baker promised Gorbachev that there would be no advance to the east, and the Germans talked about this at the highest level (by the way, the Germans respected this agreement for quite a long time). Yeltsin even agreed in 1996 to withdraw Russian missiles from Ukraine, in exchange for neutral status (this is the main content of the Budapest Memorandum). As a result, in 1999, NATO invited the Baltic tigers to join NATO. Yeltsin's policy was compromised and he had to leave. And the biggest problem now is not even the war, but the fact that no one believes the promises of the West, and this applies not only to Russians. Do you remember the deployment of anti-missiles in Poland? Allegedly "against Iranian missiles"? The Afghan taxi driver was laughing, I was driving with him somewhere in Europe, they like to talk about politics.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

Scott CWO, that's not convincing. I remember the events of the 90s well. Baker promised Gorbachev that there would be no advance to the east, and the Germans talked about this at the highest level (by the way, the Germans respected this agreement for quite a long time). Yeltsin even agreed in 1996 to withdraw Russian missiles from Ukraine, in exchange for neutral status (this is the main content of the Budapest Memorandum). As a result, in 1999, NATO invited the Baltic tigers to join NATO. Yeltsin's policy was compromised and he had to leave. And the biggest problem now is not even the war, but the fact that no one believes the promises of the West, and this applies not only to Russians. Do you remember the deployment of anti-missiles in Poland? Allegedly "against Iranian missiles"? The Afghan taxi driver was laughing, I was driving with him somewhere in Europe, they like to talk about politics.

Seem to remember the Russians signing a document promising to respect the boarders of Ukraine along about that time as well. In exchange for Ukraine giving up its nuclear deterrent.

 

[Vashper]

...

Finland in particular shares an 820 mile border with Russia, but only has a national population of about 6M people... being a NATO member allows Finland access to additional troops, additional materials, etc to secure its border..

...

You probably think that the border there is something like the perimeter from Harry Harrison's novel "The Indomitable Planet". The Finns don't guard this border at all, why? Forests and deep swamps. There are two or three checkpoints on the roads, that's all. The European Union demanded that the Russian border service protect this border from illegal migrants, because the Finns and Norwegians had no right not to let them in! It's absurd.

 

[spike.t]

One for the military people.....not good

Short version of his brother detailing what's happened

Full length with his brother who is a royal marine describing what has happened

 

[rookhawk]

I genuinely regret you and your family, or anyone's family, had such an experience - in Canada or anywhere else. I merely pointed out my own experiences over twenty-five years. Those are simple facts, not gaslighting (you really ought to look up that term since you like to use it a lot.) And yes, I am indeed "informed" about my trips to and from Canada. Apparently, those experiences upset you because you feel it contradicts your narrative in some way?

I am taking you at your word, you had one bad experience. I would be interested to know how many other transits lower than 35K feet there were. However, I will absolutely accept your experience as fact, and assume you are not deliberately gaslighting me or anyone else. Though, by your definition, your experience would seem to be a better "gaslighting by anecdote" example, whatever that is, than mine.

Since we're chatting about problems in Canada at the border I'd throw this one out: I've been to Canada dozens of times in my life/career for both business and personal travel. Only TWICE I can recall NOT being screwed with and run through a litany of enhanced questions out of the totality of travel experiences: Once landing in Moncton NB for a Salmon trip, and once crossing at Pigeon River for a bear hunt. ALL other times I was flying via air and was dressed in a suit and a tie....a guaranteed way to get a full colo-rectal from the Canucks at the airports. You see, Canadian government doesn't care about potential terrorists coming into their nation but they are REALLY concerned that you're going to make $1 on business over the course of a 2-3 day trip so they need to interrogate you every damned time just to make sure. I always flew in a day early for board meetings to allow for the full Canada experience at the airports.

On several of these trips I was in the employ of a household name major Canadian corporation but it made zero difference. Same scenarios every time from 1997-2022.

No thanks. I'm good. Pass.

 

[Scott CWO]

Scott CWO, that's not convincing. I remember the events of the 90s well. Baker promised Gorbachev that there would be no advance to the east, and the Germans talked about this at the highest level (by the way, the Germans respected this agreement for quite a long time). Yeltsin even agreed in 1996 to withdraw Russian missiles from Ukraine, in exchange for neutral status (this is the main content of the Budapest Memorandum). As a result, in 1999, NATO invited the Baltic tigers to join NATO. Yeltsin's policy was compromised and he had to leave. And the biggest problem now is not even the war, but the fact that no one believes the promises of the West, and this applies not only to Russians. Do you remember the deployment of anti-missiles in Poland? Allegedly "against Iranian missiles"? The Afghan taxi driver was laughing, I was driving with him somewhere in Europe, they like to talk about politics.

Other than Ukraine after Russia invaded them and Germany in WWII, has anyone invaded Russia from the countries you mentioned? Or any other country?

Russia is looking to expand back to USSR borders. That is the only reason you don’t like NATO expansion.

If your reasoning is to prevent invasion, you are being paranoid. Why don’t you throw away your “Evil Empire” conquests and become a friend of the West? Gorbachev almost got you there but then your government turned into an oligarchy and mafioso corrupted kleptocracy. How many billions does Putin need? He’s a pariah who cannot travel to the West to enjoy his wealth. What’s the point of all that money? Why do you and your countrymen allow this to happen?? You are afraid to say or do anything. Facts.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

If your reasoning is to prevent invasion, you are being paranoid. Why don’t you throw away your “Evil Empire” conquests and become a friend of the West? Gorbachev almost got you there but then your government turned into an oligarchy and mafioso corrupted kleptocracy. How many billions does Putin need? He’s a pariah who cannot travel to the West to enjoy his wealth. What’s the point of all that money? Why do you and your countrymen allow this to happen?? You are afraid to say or do anything. Facts.

We should not blame our Russian friend. After all, many Russians die because for some reason they keep falling out of windows...

In all fairness, this is a public forum. If anyone in Russia posts anything against thier government, they too may fall out of a window. Unfortunately, this is not a joke...

 

[spike.t]

We should not blame our Russian friend. After all, many Russians die because for some reason they keep falling out of windows...

In all fairness, this is a public forum. If anyone in Russia posts anything against thier government, they too may fall out of a window. Unfortunately, this is not a joke...

Maybe he should just stay quiet...sucked up too much putin kool aid me thinks.....

 

[Altitude sickness]

I live :30 from a major US Canadian border crossing. I’ve driven back and forth many times. As a kid we used to go to concerts, dinner, movies. Etc. In Sarnia Ont.

Then as an Adult Fishing, Bear hunting, visiting relatives.

As an adult, retired military and with nothing on my criminal record. I’ve been grilled like they found the Outlaw Jose Wales.

“Look Jethro we got the Josey Wales”

One fond memory was 3 of us going bear hunting. And having our hunting supplies for a week spread out on a parking lot and while searching they lay all over my archery gear, take apart my arrows to look down the shafts, trash everything and then when they don’t find anything, tell us you’re free to go.

We just left home :30 minutes prior after days of strategic packing and now our shit is laying on an acre of pavement to repack. So now our 12 hr drive is delayed 2 hours.

I really love this highly secretive interrogation tactic. They use

Barney stares at his screen, like he seeing your deepest, dark secrets, and ask you questions. Like have you ever been convicted of a felony. When you said no, he says, are you sure? Looking at his magical screen like he sees something you forgot about. Then you start getting pissy and say “yeah I’m pretty sure I would remember if I had a felony”.

They then use that as an excuse that you’re getting lippy and escalate to the next level of BS. Sir pull over to that lane and another Barney will meet you.

My last example was when helping a friend go to customs at the border to get his 4457‘s documented. It was like I was trying to sneak across the Berlin wall.

I got so pissed off knowing millions were at that very moment strolling across our southern border while me standing there answering ridiculous questions from Barney. And I didn’t even have weapons to check serial numbers.

Yep, you finally got me. I’ve been evading the federales with Poncho and Lefty for years, and I finally stumbled into your dragnet.

Don’t even get me started on going into Quebec.

I don’t like to say never but I’m pretty confident. I will never step inside Canada again.

And to be clear, I’ve been screwed with by American Barney’s far more often coming back home. more than Canadians when going into Canada. Most of the time the Canadian BP were fine.

I must look like a criminal

 

[Tundra Tiger]

Maybe he should just stay quiet...sucked up too much putin kool aid me thinks.....

I get and even on some level respect him sticking up for his home country. But I want to believe that on some level he sees the utterly indefensible position of Russia's invasion of Ukraine... or maybe not. It turns my stomach as an American that our president wants to give Putin what he sought to take all along.

 

[Dragan N.]

Scott CWO, that's not convincing. I remember the events of the 90s well. Baker promised Gorbachev that there would be no advance to the east, and the Germans talked about this at the highest level (by the way, the Germans respected this agreement for quite a long time). Yeltsin even agreed in 1996 to withdraw Russian missiles from Ukraine, in exchange for neutral status (this is the main content of the Budapest Memorandum). As a result, in 1999, NATO invited the Baltic tigers to join NATO. Yeltsin's policy was compromised and he had to leave. And the biggest problem now is not even the war, but the fact that no one believes the promises of the West, and this applies not only to Russians. Do you remember the deployment of anti-missiles in Poland? Allegedly "against Iranian missiles"? The Afghan taxi driver was laughing, I was driving with him somewhere in Europe, they like to talk about politics.

Here is a list of declassified documents which show what Western leaders told Gorbachev:

NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard | National Security Archive

Western leaders gave multiple assurances against NATO expansion to Gorbachev in 1990-1991 according to declassified American, Russian, British, Germans documents

nsarchive.gwu.edu

These are documents from Western archives which show that Gorbachev was led to believe that NATO would not expand one inch eastwards. But hey this is somehow "Russian propaganda" or "Putin's talking points".

Ukraine brings back bodies of over 900 fallen soldiers

These included service members killed in the Kurakhove, Pokrovsk, Bakhmut, Vuhledar, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia, Sumy, and Kharkiv sectors of the front, as well as those in Russian morgues.

kyivindependent.com

Speaking of the present war, the Ukrainians acknowledge that they received the bodies of 909 Ukrainian soldiers in the latest body exchange between Russia and Ukraine. However the Ukrainian media omits the fact that the Russians received the bodies of only 43 Russian soldiers in return. This certainly explains why the Ukrainians are facing a critical manpower shortage...

 

[spike.t]

Here is a list of declassified documents which show what Western leaders told Gorbachev:

NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard | National Security Archive

Western leaders gave multiple assurances against NATO expansion to Gorbachev in 1990-1991 according to declassified American, Russian, British, Germans documents

nsarchive.gwu.edu

These are documents from Western archives which show that Gorbachev was led to believe that NATO would not expand one inch eastwards. But hey this is somehow "Russian propaganda" or "Putin's talking points".

Ukraine brings back bodies of over 900 fallen soldiers

These included service members killed in the Kurakhove, Pokrovsk, Bakhmut, Vuhledar, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia, Sumy, and Kharkiv sectors of the front, as well as those in Russian morgues.

kyivindependent.com

Speaking of the present war, the Ukrainians acknowledge that they received the bodies of 909 Ukrainian soldiers in the latest body exchange between Russia and Ukraine. However the Ukrainian media omits the fact that the Russians received the bodies of only 43 Russian soldiers in return. This certainly explains why the Ukrainians are facing a critical manpower shortage...

Presumably because most Russian dead are left where they fall.....the Russians don't sem too bothered about collecting their dead...and I doubt the Ukrainians can be bothered either.....

‘A lot of Russians have been killed. We like this’: on the frontline with a Ukrainian artillery unit

Soldiers expect Moscow to launch summer offensive and dismiss US efforts to bring peace as ‘pretty disappointing’

www.theguardian.com

 

[Dragan N.]

Presumably because most Russian dead are left where they fall.....the Russians don't sem too bothered about collecting their dead...and I doubt the Ukrainians can be bothered either.....

‘A lot of Russians have been killed. We like this’: on the frontline with a Ukrainian artillery unit

Soldiers expect Moscow to launch summer offensive and dismiss US efforts to bring peace as ‘pretty disappointing’

www.theguardian.com

If Russia doesn't care to retrieve fallen soldiers from the battleground, how do they give 909 bodies of Ukrainian soldiers to Ukraine? If Ukraine does care to retrieve soldies from the battleground, why do they only give Russia 43 and how is that Russia was able to pick up 909 bodies left by Ukrainians and Ukraine was only able to pick up 43 bodies left by Russians, especially if losses are ~5 to 1 in favor of Ukraine, as per the Green T-shift?

 

[Rocked and Loaded]

And the damage done to international relations and business will be his legacy.

Quite possibly.

It’s definitely a mixed bag. I love his domestic policy but disagree with most of his foreign policy thus far.

 

[Aaron N]

"You will never convince me . . ."

Finally, we get the bottom line. There's no point in having a discussion or debate with people who will never be convinced. Facts won't matter, and evidence won't matter. It's like trying to convince a flat earthed that the earth is round.

I'm not saying who's right and who's wrong in this debate, but I am saying there's no point to the debate at all if people don't care what the other side has to say.

To be fair, a disc is still round……

 

[Red Leg]

I have heard more than once that NATO's expansion to the east is not an aggressive step at all, and it does not pose any threat to Russia. And I even read it, and even here. And now it turns out that we have to tremble and cringe. That's the answer to why such events unfolded after the fascist coup in Ukraine.
And what is the purpose of these steps, which are quite expensive, by the way, besides provoking Russia? There is definitely no benefit for Sweden and Finland. Logically speaking, this looks like preparation for an annihilating war against Russia, it is not needed for anything else.

Vashper I know this will conflict with your self-perception, but 90% of the American people rarely think of Russia if at all. Those of us who do think of you tend to view Russia as a paranoid schizophrenic 12 year old schoolchild with a loaded AK and a grenade in their backpack as he wanders the halls of his middle school. I know it is hard to accept, but no one wants anything that you have. No one has demonstrated that more than the peoples of Central Europe. That is a relationship built over a thousand years culminating in Soviet tanks, jackboots, and terror of the KGB and MVB. Their governments and peoples would be insane not to want to align themselves with the West and to acquire some sort of security assurances. Your nation's behavior in Ukraine has only solidified those perceptions and finally driven Sweden and Finland into membership in the Atlantic Alliance.

Outside of a normal trading relationship, there is nothing that you have that this country or frankly any NATO member needs - unless, it is perhaps sane leadership and to be left alone.

The facts are your nation brutally invaded a country that had been independent for 30 years. Based on the air assault landings in Homstomel and the beleaguered Russian troops north of Kiev, the intent clearly was a Hungarian or Czech model of quickly seizing the country. The strategic genius in the Kremlin and his sycophantic generals seemed to have missed the part about the Ukrainian people having a vote as well. They are continuing to vote at your nation's enormous cost every single day.

You have suffered nearly a million casualties in Ukraine. Sure, most were those second class Asian dependents about which a Muscovite has no real interest, but you also lost the core of your modernized army. Many of those young officers were future leaders in your nation. How much more of your future are you and your fellow citizens willing to discard for the sake of an ex-KGB thug's vanity?

Finally, if I may offer you and whomever reads your mail a suggestion. Your paranoia is focused in the wrong direction. Despite their help with drones and munitions, Iran hates you far worse than they hate us. For the moment, they have trapped themselves in a conflict with Israel and their nuclear aspirations. But when that passes, they will resume their destabilization efforts in Russia's Muslim south and southeast. The West will be a useful ally when that happens.

Also, you have a simmering territorial conflict that could erupt at any point that Xi or a successor believes he needs to distract domestic opinion from the trajectory of China's economy or failure with respect to Taiwan. I would note, even an unclassified assessment of the correlation of forces between the PLA and the Russian armed forces would have me sleepless in Moscow. Other than another internal catastrophe, those are your actual international threats - not NATO.