why do people not use premium bullets?

[DLSJR]

Agreed, but a lower-SD-for caliber bullet will tend to expend all its energy inside the cat and may not even exit, especially w/ a higher V gun like a Wby people can shoot accurately (which is just fine)! Std. rem SPs are fine for that job, as are original Nos BTs, Berger originals and std. The distances are short and the target is fragile. You simply must make the perfect shot w/ those traditional bullets (as you mention.) You want to blow it out of the tree (or over if on the ground) and that's IT. No trailing whatsoever. I'd much prefer a HOT deer/elk cartridge (up to .338 or .358) with high velocity and low SD bullets rather than a traditional DG bigger bore on cats! You can even get a high V out of a 375 HH w/ low SD bullets (3,000+/- fps! 235-260ish gr).

The ‘expend all its energy inside an animal’ is a flawed concept as organ damage is what kills. While the bullet I shot didn’t expend ‘all’ of its energy inside the leopard, it expended a huge amount and still exited. That’s partly because of the bullet design but also because I shoot a 338. By its very nature, that cartridge and bullet has way more energy than so many smaller cartridges. The inside of the chest was a total mess and that exit hole meant a lot more blood on the ground for tracking, should it have been necessary. As it was, we saw the leopard laying dead while still 30+ yards away.

A couple final comments… #1; I don’t know a single PH who prefers just an entry hole over an entry AND exit hole, and I know quite a few experienced PH’s. #2; I personally wouldn’t shoot a leopard with a Berger if someone bought me the ammo and paid the trophy fee foe me. I’ve only shot 3 leopards but I have a pretty good idea of what works since the sum total of distance all 3 cats together covered was less than 30 yards. All 3 had large exit holes and were dead within a few seconds of being shot. All were shot with premium bullets.

 

[Rule 303]

Only deer I’ve ever lost is in the 270 using Nosler solid base 130 grain bullets. Just went through and the deer fell down but got up quickly and …
Never found.

Helps make my point that the plain jane cup and core bullets do vary in their performance.

 

[Dr Ray]

Helps make my point that the plain jane cup and core bullets do vary in their performance.

I do use premiums on bigger game.
Never a problem.

 

[mark-hunter]

In my previous posts, on this subject, I tried to explain that premium bullets are not always required for every game. Premium bullets are monolihic (expanding or non expanding), bonded or partition.
Non premium, or classics are all others like core lokts, cap and core, soft points, ballistic tips and similar.

Then I remembered, a series of articles by Chuck Hawks, on this subject.
Basically, there is 4 categories of game which determines 4 classes of bullets in weight and construction.
And there is several categories of calibers.
So, based on that, the caliber, and bullet will be chosen for specific game.
4 classes of game - comes from Winchester ammunition guide. (CXP controlled expansion)
CXP 1 - small varmints and predators
CXP 2 - thin skinned animals from deer and antelope, to balck bear. Up to 300 pounds
CXP 3 - Largest animals, elk moose, brown bear, zebra, eland, from 300 pounds to more then 1000 pounds. CXP 3 is threshold where premium bullets can start to be utilized.
CXP 4 - Dangerous game animals, bisons, African DG7, etc. Premium bullet area.

So, bullets are classified in these 4 categories, and will be chosen by caliber / animal system.
Generally speaking, when hunting CXP1 and CXP2 animals, soft points, cup and core bullets can be used, for moderate velocities.
CXP3 and CXP4 bullets will be used for larger animals, or DG, or high velocities.

Full set of articles is here.

Hunting Bullet Guide, Part One: Caliber and Weight

Hunting Bullet Guide, Part Two: By Manufacturer

And for those who want to know more, one more

Rifle Bullets for Big Game Hunting

When I analyze all this, I came to conclusion that I try to choose bullet having similar considerations and conclusions.


CXP 4 for dangerous animals

 

[Tam Dl]

That just sounds like good shooting! With a 338, you could probably have shot all 3 leopards with one shot. When the target gets that small, and the bullet that big, it is "pass the Prvi" time around here. Even a broken up bullet from a .366 will hit like a couple 308s. However, I am glad to say we only have black bear out the back...

 

[mark-hunter]

The bullets and terminal effect in hunting for devoted hunter (like me) is always interesting subject.
I have question about literature.

Can anybody recommend some book on bullet construction and terminal ballistics in hunting?

 

[Tam Dl]

All these he dropped, then he jumped back up stories remind me of:

1) Wasn't one reason why they invented the .50 BMG because in mass wave attacks, relatively small people were not getting the message when hit by 30 cal machine gun fire? Is that true, or did they mostly want to punk machines?

2) Just watched a piece on Wilson's channel about their new hog killing AR-15. One of the co-commentators on the panel said he was not all that sold on supressors ("silencers" for the lawyers in the crowd) because extensive combat and hunting experience indicated to him that the noise from the muzzle of the rifle was a significant factor in dropping game, and humans. Indicating just how organisms feel about getting shot is a big factor.

It does seem that not all failures to drop at the shot are proof of much, which is one reasons experience is such a poor guide. It takes titanic amounts of bloodshed before a reliable pattern appears, and it takes trained observers (could be accountants or doctors, but people with some ability to handle data). Then you get an African pro who has dumped thousands of heads, but his info is based on a time when they could only get bad rifles, and questionable ammo. I remember Don reported that once their department ran out of bullets so they lathe turned them. Whatever that was, it wasn't are that relatable.

Then you get confounding factors. The premise of the thread is "wouldn't you think..." Well the person who is serious enough they squared away all their gear, and practiced all the time will likely get better results for any number of reasons, might hunt with a more el primo outfits.

I do respect my own experience. I was in a plane crash once, a low percentage event. It was over 25 years ago, and I don't think there has been another one since. I still believe air travel is a risk, and when I think back to all the flying I did, I can think of a few other really sketchy situations. I just figure experience is there for a reason, even if it isn't "all that".

 

[Tam Dl]

The bullets and terminal effect in hunting for devoted hunter (like me) is always interesting subject.
I have question about literature.

Can anybody recommend some book on bullet construction and terminal ballistics in hunting?

Pass the popcorn!

There is Hatcher, all the old stuff is rapidly becoming out of date. I have read probably thousands of articles on the subject, most of them the usual merry go round. The art of gun writing is throughout a career to cover all sides of a subject...

I got lent a large box of old Rifle mags, they are full of interesting things.

This is actually an interesting and timely thread. If you look at where we are today, we are moving from Premium to something new in bullets. A hyper design phase. As if bullet design was being enabled by rapid manufacturing techniques to produce bullets of great complexity that are individually CNC machined. Maybe they can alter high pressure molding dies. Wilson, who is a devoted African hunter and fan of the 9.3x62, AND, is just starting to advertise the first bolt action hunting rifle he will manufacture, has some new horrendous ammo that is extremely destructive. I would guess he will make some other than hog, hunting ammo for his resurrection of Ultralite Arms. We will see.

I don't know if that is the bullet I want to eat around, but what it shows, and some of the novel handgun ammo shows, is how quickly radical new bullets are coming to the market. He has only had this ammo company up and running, less than a year, I think.

 

[Tam Dl]

The ‘expend all its energy inside an animal’ is a flawed concept as organ damage is what kills.

+1, however energy is the ability to do work. If all the work is going on inside the body, rather than zipping on past, there is a lot of potential there. The temporary wound channel thing seems to be real, so maximizing both specific puncture wounds and the channel should yield good results.

Then the dicussion moves to what drops animals the best, while retaining the food value. There I tip my hat to broadheads and round balls. I think most people get how special BHs are. I was sorry to see all the problems of pistol bullets usurp the round ball for hunting. It normally had large caliber, huge expansion, total weight retention, which while not always as violent and modern effects, left a lot of food value.

 

[leslie hetrick]

my late father killed a trailer load of game over a 55 year hunting career with a 7x57 mauser, useing 154 gr RN bullets at 2600 fps. they all died very quickly according to him. he knew full well the limitations of his rifle and was a true hunter, i never heard him say he shot a game animal at over 200 yards. he said and i saw many of the animals he shot and they had decent exit holes. that 7x57 rifle is long gone, but i use a 7mm08 rem 700 and that same bullet kills just as good today.

 

[Badboymelvin]

Hey guys,

Living down in Australia I used Woodleigh's in all my calibers - from the .300Wby to the .458WM.
I consider Woodleigh projectiles a 'premium' bullet and they have never let me down.

Just recently I've started using the Australian made Atomic 29 projectiles in my 425 Express and will be using them in my .308Norma, magnum when it arrives.

The Atomic 29 is an all copper, hollow-point projectile and I also consider this a 'premium' bullet, so l guess you could say that I use 'premium' bullets exclusively in my rifles.

My passion is deer hunting and l just don't fire that many rounds.
So once I've finished load development, chronograph work and sighting in, what's left will last me a long time and as I just said, I just don't fire that many rounds when l'm hunting...
So 'premium' bullets - although more expensive, don't break the bank FOR ME.

And when the chips are down (and they've been down plenty of times) having a good Woodleigh or Atomic 29 loaded in your rifle, just gives me that much more confidence...

Russ

 

[K-man]

See below. Traces are all over. I was surprised my self when I was reading about non lead bullets, and their benefits

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/X-rays-radiographs-of-four-animals-shot-with-expanding-lead-based-bullets-a-A-roe_fig1_326321990

View attachment 556054

Hmm. Must have been shot with a Hornady dgs... just had to stir the pot again...

 

[Hogpatrol]

See below. Traces are all over. I was surprised my self when I was reading about non lead bullets, and their benefits

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/X-rays-radiographs-of-four-animals-shot-with-expanding-lead-based-bullets-a-A-roe_fig1_326321990

View attachment 556054

This article has false info. Leaded aviation gas is still used worldwide, even in the U.S.. Wouldn't put it past the anti-hunters to photo shop to "prove" their case.

 

[Forrest Halley]

@Forrest Halley
You would shoot 3rds or 4ths if they sold them your such a titewad.
It's a wonder you don't shoot cast in everything because they're even cheaper.
But then again you do give squirrels 9 warning shots with your 22 before you actually shoot it..
Ha ha ha ha ha
Bob

Hey now I'm just trying to keep things fair! After all the trees are short and it's sort of a foregone conclusion when I get them treed.

I see where Remington has just come out with the all copper Core Lokt bullet at about the same price point as Barnes. Except they need to lose the “Lokt” part cause there’s no jacket to lock onto anything with the monometal bullet. For the same price I’ll stick with Barnes.

Maybe they'll stay together now?

They’ll probably load those in their “new” .360 BUCKHAMMER too.

You're hung up on the hammer aren't you...

"Why do people not use premium bullets?"

Because bullet placement is more important than bullet construction. Not all game animals need a premium to kill them, and some rifles might shoot a standard cup and core hunting bullet more accurately than a premium bullet.

I now hunt almost exclusively with premium (Barnes TSX and TTSX) bullets in my .375 RUM and my .300 Weatherby.

But I haven't always and still don't always use premium bullets for certain game animals or in all of my hunting rifles.

Here are some (high dollar?) animals that I made one shot, DRT kills on with standard cup and core hunting bullets...

A 375" bull elk from a DIY public land hunt in Montana with a 180 gr Sierra Gameking bullet from my .30-06.


My first Montana Bighorn from a DIY Solo hunt with a 117 gr Sierra GameKing bullet from my .257 Ackley


Another Montana Bighorn from an Unlimited unit, also on a DIY solo hunt with my .257 Ackley and a 117 gr Sierra GameKing bullet.


Another Montana Unlimited Unit Bighorn ram from an Unlimited unit, also on a DIY solo hunt with my .257 Ackley and a 117 gr Sierra GameKing bullet.


And this Northwest Territories Dall ram from my first guided hunt, but also shot with my .257 Ackley and a 117 gr Sierra GameKing bullet.

Brother if you still have that first camera, use it. It makes you look a lot younger!

I actually think California has pushed a lot of great eviro law. I remember in the boat field when they banned linear poly and people thought it was the end of the world. Within a few weeks they turned to water based (so called) linear poly, and we lived. Guitar finishes were harder, but eventually we got on top of it, both moving to old natural finishes, and for goodness sake, Taylor figured out how to powder coat wood, I think. They banned Harley type engines, and Harley caved, but S&S figured out how to handle the oil escape. Sometimes they made the world better.

But these days you can't buy a glass without there being a disclaimer that the state of california has determined glass causes cancer. Probably the work of the company's legal department, but it has moved on to where everything one hears is just BS now.

California burns every year too. It's like God is trying to get rid of some of those people or hoping it will melt off the US and fall into the ocean.

my new pet project (i fully intend to sell the rights to 35) is the 350-.50 BMG (Biden Must Go!)

Ohh great idea.
New and Improved Features:
•Gun shows up to hunt without actually being the popular choice.
• The rifle looks like it is five hundred years old and will stop working at any moment.
• The report of the rifle doesn't make any sense and you're a racist for asking for clarification.
•The bullet travels ten feet, falls down and then gets back up with assistance.
• Bullet sniffs hair and creeps out the does then goes around in circles endlessly.

 

[poco]

lol being from 2 farming families, i left out a major group of chemicals: pesticides/herbicides. No bueno. Don't believe the BS. Don't use 'em. Watch Food, Inc. Michael J. Fox shows clear signs of pesticide/herbicide exposure, as do/did many others closer to home. It's an industry that shifted (the need to purchase) seed, equipment, and chemical purchases to a few Monopolies, whereas prior it was done by those in your local communities, for le$$ (and minimal toxics; seed farmers/dealers, mechanical weed control, no chems other than fertilizer/lime, sell product locally-greater profits for all locals involved. No need for "Farm Aid" as a result of selling out to Big Ag and being crushed at every angle (loans, new widgets requiring new equipment, etc. etc. etc. like premium bullets, but at the $100Ks level.)

Monsanto
and their roundup ready seed is no bueno, we are forced to buy it ! Buy the seed or pay for legal fees ( millions in chemicals, technology fees, equipment)
glad I mostly get to use whatever bullet I want , depending on state and country

 

[PerH]

LFB make a 177 bonded 7x57 ammo

And Geco 165 TM

Brenneke TIG 177 7mm

 

[C.W. Richter]

Monsanto
and their roundup ready seed is no bueno, we are forced to buy it ! Buy the seed or pay for legal fees ( millions in chemicals, technology fees, equipment)
glad I mostly get to use whatever bullet I want , depending on state and country

My Dad died as a result of the required seed treatment, as well as the medi treatments required.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Thank you for your contribution, experiences, and photos! Always enjoy your perspective...

Why thank you, Alan. My experience is substandard, at best.

 

[Sideshow]

I hear sorry good things about this company https://drtammo.com/hunting/
Anyone here used them?

 

[Rule 303]

I hear sorry good things about this company https://drtammo.com/hunting/
Anyone here used them?

Until I looked at their web site I thought DRT stood for Dead Right There I am not found of those sorts of rounds. Not all deer breds are the same. What works on a White Tail may not penetrate enough on a Red or Rusa or Sambar. Don't mind if 3 or 4 petals are shed as they should have enough energy in them to fan out more than a couple of inches. I would also like the petals to stay attached to the bullet until they at least 4" into the animal.