Why are Weatherby guns in 375+ calibers not liked on a Safari?

[IvW]

We are talking 375 and up I would imagine that means starting at 378 Weatherby and up.....

 

[grand veneur]

It is about rifles caliber 375 and more. The cartridges 378 WBY or 460 WBY are probably meant , may be also the cartridge 416 WBY.

Anyway , if you don't master any of the 3 cartridges mentioned , you also cannot use cartridges like the 500 Jeffery or 505 Gibbs or an DR caliber 500NE or 577NE.

That's why the topic would be rather :

"Why are big bore cartridges in 375+ calibers not liked on a Safari?"

Such a topic would not make much sense either.

 

[JimP]

Don't forget that Weatherby also had the 375 Weatherby before the .378 Weatherby.

 

[Ray B]

Don't forget that Weatherby also had the 375 Weatherby before the .378 Weatherby.

I consider the 375 Wby to be a very good cartridge, although I prefer a corner shoulder, the double radius is a small imperfection. It has qualities similar to the 375/8mm Mag, another great cartridge that lies in a very sweet spot for performance.

 

[Tanks]

... The beauty was that the bear never moved an inch. So is that too much? And if your answer is yes, then why is it too much and would a 378 or 460 be too much for even larger game in the hands of someone who can handle it?

Bear with .500 MDM 325 grain CEB tipped Safari raptor moving at 2,950 fps.

 

[Paul Homsy]

Tanks, I saw a beautiful black bear, cinnamon phase you took in New Mexico in one of your photos. Just for your information. It's not a "brown bear" as you refer to it. I can understand the color creating the misunderstanding but brown bears are something else altogether, I put a note on the photograph.

You aren't the first one to call a black bear a "brown bear". You'd be amazed at the number of tourists, American and foreign who call "brown bears" or "grizzlies" black bears they saw in Yosemite.

 

[Tanks]

Yeah, I was referring to the color, not the type. After I finish Big 5, next is a Kodiak.

 

[Paul Homsy]

Best wishes for much success with all of them !

 

[EfRed]

I'm a long time shooter, but have not hunted much. Mostly pistols, big bore pistols, which force you to handle recoil if you want to hit anything. I do have and like to shoot rifles as well. Among my rifles are 4 Weatherby Mark Vs, a 375 Safari Custom, a 340, a 300 (my fathers), and a 30-06. My first shot with the 300 was about 55 years ago, standing, at a rock about 350 yds away, about 2ft x 1.5 feet, in front of my Dad. I was nervous. Holding slightly high, I did break the rock, though the unexpectedly fast recoil lifted the rifle briefly out of my hands. Later, I learned to hold onto it a little better. I suppose this shot shows the 300 Mk V at its best, higher long range impact velocity and energy. It didn't hurt to shoot this rifle, it just had a surpisingly rapid recoil.

The 340 I haven't yet shot much, having just bought it. With reasonable handloads and a 200 Speer HotCor, it's very comfortable to shoot, not really different than the 300. I just got some 250's to play with, and expect more recoil from them, but less recoil impulse. For a general purpose rifle outside of buffalo and elephant country, it's about perfect, to me. Covers both end of things for NA very well.

The 375 Safari Custom is a superb and beautiful rifle, very nice wood. With the Weatherby factory loads, 300 gr Nosler Partition at 2800 fps (nominal), it does hurt the shoulder a little bit, so I limit the number of rounds I fire at a setting. Cost is also a factor with this round. The most excellent point is that it can be loaded down to 375 Ruger and to 375 H&H velocities, and is then very comfortable to shoot. So, if your really need the long range impact velocity and energy, the 375 Wby is a pretty good cartridge. If you are in a hunting situation, by all means load to the least necessary level. Or, just drop in some 375 H&Hs, which seem to function well in the rifle. It is heavy, about 11 lbs. For me, this is too heavy for a DGR, which needs to handle nimbly, damn the recoil. Same comment on my Ruger 458 Lott.

I've not shot the 30-06 yet, due to Covid19, but it handles very nicely, with a 24" bbl.

The low bolt lift is a great asset. So is the smooth action. I'm not particular happy with the Weatherby stock's appearance, though it does have some appeal, but I find it a very comfortable and effective stock to shoot and it comes to the shoulder well and quickly.

My father taught me when I was 10 years old to jam the bolt at both ends, to ensure complete cycling; this habit ensures the reliability of both push feed and CRF actions. The habit allows the full advantage of the low bolt lift of this action. So I'm having a custom rifle built on a Mk V action in 458 Lott, composite stock, with hi-vis fiber optic iron sights, to weigh ~ 8 to 8.5 lbs prior to scope.

There is no doubt that recoil will be vicious in this rifle with full house 500 gr of 550 gr bullets. But I'll mostly shoot 350's loaded to 2600-2700 or so, which is a much tamer beast. If a circus elephant goes mad here in town, I'll just take the scope off, load some 500s, and get fairly close. If I get the elephant, I think the city will probably pay to have my unconscious body trucked back in from the next county. That said, there is a notable lack of wild elephants in my neighborhood, due no doubt to the presence of my elephant rifles and my own eternal vigilance.

I've always wondered about the 378, the 416, and the 460. These are very special purpose cartridges. I've chosen to save myself the trouble, and avoid them. You can practice and learn to control the rifle even with these rounds, but no real point unless you are a PH and need the big boom for backup. Even then, I'd probably pick a 500 Jeffery or 505 Gibbs or a 500 NE, to avoid that vicious recoil impulse. The recoil with these old cartridges is still very substantial. IF the 450 NE was effective for hunting, then so are the 458 WM and the 458 Lott.

So, my 2 cents on Weatherbys. Good rifles, some good cartridges which do extend effective range, despite Mr. C. Hawkes' MEPB range concept. He should also remember that 30 extra yds is 30 extra yds, and that energy at impact deserves consideration.

Pooh-poohing others choice of gun & cartridge is an arrogant exercise. Weatherby's as good as anything else, when properly applied - a pro-viso that applies to all rifle cartridge combinations. A good PH may fear his client, but shouldn't, without reason, fear his choice of rifle and cartridge. Also, the world being what it is, a PH needs to focus on teaching the ignorant, and saving those resistant to his teaching.

Twice, my father had accidental discharges with his 300 Weatherby Mk V. Both times, he was unloading the rifle by cranking rounds through the chamber. The factory manual advises using the floorplate to unload. His first rule was muzzle awareness, so neither of these ADs caused an injury. One should read and follow to the manual.

 

[rookhawk]

Twice, my father had accidental discharges with his 300 Weatherby Mk V. Both times, he was unloading the rifle by cranking rounds through the chamber. The factory manual advises using the floorplate to unload. His first rule was muzzle awareness, so neither of these ADs caused an injury. One should read and follow to the manual.

Another reason to marvel at the Winchester Model 70 / Mauser 98 action. The safety goes beyond an intercepting safety sear and has a blocking scheme to hold the firing pin back in the shroud independent of any function of the fire control system. Moving the safety simply un-parks the firing capability from the bolt onto the fire control group in the action. Paul Mauser was a genius, that's one of many reasons these rifles and their many copy-cats are preferred for hunting.

 

[EfRed]

Another reason to marvel at the Winchester Model 70 / Mauser 98 action. The safety goes beyond an intercepting safety sear and has a blocking scheme to hold the firing pin back in the shroud independent of any function of the fire control system. Moving the safety simply un-parks the firing capability from the bolt onto the fire control group in the action. Paul Mauser was a genius, that's one of many reasons these rifles and their many copy-cats are preferred for hunting.

Mauser action good, I agree. I have several, and am having a Granite Mountain Mauser action built in .404 Jeffery. So no hate for Mausers here, only admiration for a sound design.

Has no one ever experienced an Accidental Discharge with a Mauser ? Has no one ever had a bolt cycling problem because the bolt is too close to the scope ? Has no one ever blown up a Mauser due to a clogged bbl ? Weatherby just as good I think, stronger, quite a lot quicker to cycle, bolt doesn't come close to scope, won't blow up if clogged. But, I have to admit, I've never personally had a Mauser AD, and there are incidences of Mk Vs doing that. To my knowledge, Dad never tinkered with the trigger or anything else on his Weatherby, a mid-sixties US Mk V, and it AD'd.

Also having a 404 built on a Weatherby Mark V action. I'll do an apples to apples comparison when these are in my hands.

Safe handling. Know your rifle. Pick what you like. I like both. Until I can experiment with my 404s, I'll choose the Mk V where speed/reliability of cycling matters and where the handling qualities of the rifle are equal. And for the record I wish the Mk V had a 3 position safety and an unblemished record of no ADs.

 

[EfRed]

Another reason to marvel at the Winchester Model 70 / Mauser 98 action. The safety goes beyond an intercepting safety sear and has a blocking scheme to hold the firing pin back in the shroud independent of any function of the fire control system. Moving the safety simply un-parks the firing capability from the bolt onto the fire control group in the action. Paul Mauser was a genius, that's one of many reasons these rifles and their many copy-cats are preferred for hunting.

And, not least, thanks for replying, Rookhawk !

 

[rookhawk]

Very little opportunity for an accidental discharge on a Mauser 98, win 70, or its clones. The bolt shroud safety lever is parking the safety off of the firing system of the receiver by .018”. So the cocked bolt, cocking piece slid back, is physically held off of the function trigger/seat of the action when on safe.

So how can you make this design have an AD? Not sure. Pulling out guesses: if there was debris obstructing and bulging from the bottom of the cocking piece and it was driven home with much gusto, maybe you could override the trigger, but in that situation the firing pin is still held captive by the bolt safety catch. It would then go off when the safety lever was flipped. Farfetched, but in theory.

Another way Is of the safety was improperly installed and therefore the safety is not withdrawing the firing pin from contact with the sear....that’s bad. A drop or jar could make it go off. But this is easy to avoid by buying good quality guns and by observing it was properly installed. (When you flick the safety, you watch the cocking piece traveling back a reasonable distance.

This is the best system that has been developed. Unlike Rem 700 and many other designs and litigations/recalls, the mauser system works very well and has been copied dozens of times. The weatherby does not use this system.

 

[ZG47]

@EfRed The Mauser 98 and post- WWII (prewar catches were two-position) Winchester Model 70 actions are fitted with three position breech-bolt mounted lever-operated safety catches with ample travel and positive retention in each position. The Weatherby Mk V action is equipped with a two-position breech-bolt mounted lever-operated safety catch that has very short travel.

The Weatherby safety catch is better than a trigger block, as fitted to the Remington Model 700 action et al but ... honestly speaking, Mr Weatherby should have, in my opinion, insisted upon a three-position safety catch for his proprietary action. In thirty six (36) years of military and civilian shooting, including 14 years managing a civilian outdoor range complex and over 16 years taking people for their firearm licence; I have never heard, with all due respect, of a design/manufacturing related accidental discharge with a Weatherby MK V action.

 

[crs]

"For a PH to claim Weatherby rifles do not work displays ignorance. " or possibly just lacking some communication skills. To me, the above quote is meaningless and to be ignored or questioned.

WRT WBY quality, shootability and cost, my 5 foot tall daughter shoots a WBY Mark V 7 mm WBY Mag with 50mm Leupould scope and both she and the rifle can shoot! We bought it slightly used because the owner claimed it was not accurate and shot 6 inch groups. It turned out the bore needed the copper removed and now it shoots sub minute of angle groups.
Years ago, her Montana elk guide trotted a mile to tell me that she had just made a 400 yard one shot kill on a mule deer buck. No surprise for me. She was also the ONLY hunter at that outfitter camp who made a one shot bullseye with the WBY and her Savage .243 (including me) . She passed the pre-hunt accuracy test quickly. We bought those rifles because they were good guns and LEFT handed.
Just said that as a parent trying to teach kids not to over generalize . Not all WBY shooters are rich jerks.

 

[rookhawk]

"For a PH to claim Weatherby rifles do not work displays ignorance. " or possibly just lacking some communication skills. To me, the above quote is meaningless and to be ignored or questioned.

WRT WBY quality, shootability and cost, my 5 foot tall daughter shoots a WBY Mark V 7 mm WBY Mag with 50mm Leupould scope and both she and the rifle can shoot! We bought it slightly used because the owner claimed it was not accurate and shot 6 inch groups. It turned out the bore needed the copper removed and now it shoots sub minute of angle groups.
Years ago, her Montana elk guide trotted a mile to tell me that she had just made a 400 yard one shot kill on a mule deer buck. No surprise for me. She was also the ONLY hunter at that outfitter camp who made a one shot bullseye with the WBY and her Savage .243 (including me) . She passed the pre-hunt accuracy test quickly. We bought those rifles because they were good guns and LEFT handed.
Just said that as a parent trying to teach kids not to over generalize . Not all WBY shooters are rich jerks.

all due respect on the final sentence. I know very few rich people that would want a weatherby. They are marginally more expensive than any other mid-range gun in the rack. I don’t think people persecute weatherby owners because they are snobs or rich, they just think they own the best functioning gun because it was the most expensive gun at the hardware store.

I like some of the calibers Roy made, I like vintage guns more than modern, and I like British stock principles more than weatherby combs, and I like CRF and three position or tang safeties. For those reasons, I’m not a weatherby action guy. Still, I want a Mauser in 257 weatherby made by a best American mid-century maker.

 

[Bert the Turtle]

I think the Weatherby cartridges do some things that for a really long time were the only game in town for getting higher-than-usual velocities for a given caliber. Those cartridges can do things that other cartridges could not and in the right hands and for the right reasons are useful. Perhaps there are other reasons, but in my view, the primary reason for those high velocities is to flatten trajectory and (more importantly in my opinion) shorten flight time thereby reducing wind drift at distance. The wrong reason is to make it kill better at ordinary ranges.

I think the bad reputation came when they were purchased for the wrong reasons. A 375HH does about what needs to and can be done with a 375 for ordinary buffalo hunting at ordinary distance. If a guy shows up with a 375 Weatherby, the PH didn't know why he chose that. If he chose it because he felt he needed it to be more deadly than an ordinary 375HH, that would of course make any rational person wonder why does this guy think he needs that extra boost? Maybe because he isn't confident of his shooting? And if we are honest, more than one client has done exactly that. Experience that a few times and he could be forgiven for generalizing.

Beyond that, the bullets in the 1950s and 60s may not have been up to the velocities encountered up close and so there would then be a hardware problem on top of the perceived shooter problem.

 

[EfRed]

Very little opportunity for an accidental discharge on a Mauser 98, win 70, or its clones. The bolt shroud safety lever is parking the safety off of the firing system of the receiver by .018”. So the cocked bolt, cocking piece slid back, is physically held off of the function trigger/seat of the action when on safe.

So how can you make this design have an AD? Not sure. Pulling out guesses: if there was debris obstructing and bulging from the bottom of the cocking piece and it was driven home with much gusto, maybe you could override the trigger, but in that situation the firing pin is still held captive by the bolt safety catch. It would then go off when the safety lever was flipped. Farfetched, but in theory.

Another way Is of the safety was improperly installed and therefore the safety is not withdrawing the firing pin from contact with the sear....that’s bad. A drop or jar could make it go off. But this is easy to avoid by buying good quality guns and by observing it was properly installed. (When you flick the safety, you watch the cocking piece traveling back a reasonable distance.

This is the best system that has been developed. Unlike Rem 700 and many other designs and litigations/recalls, the mauser system works very well and has been copied dozens of times. The weatherby does not use this system.

Thank You, Rookhawk, for this interesting and useful information. The Weatherby does indeed seem to suffer by comparison. It can still be operated safely, but I do acknowledge foolproof is best. But, hardheaded, I still love my Weatherbies, and my Mausers, too!

 

[Tanks]

.... I think the bad reputation came when they were purchased for the wrong reasons. A 375HH does about what needs to and can be done with a 375 for ordinary buffalo hunting at ordinary distance. If a guy shows up with a 375 Weatherby, the PH didn't know why he chose that. If he chose it because he felt he needed it to be more deadly than an ordinary 375HH, that would of course make any rational person wonder why does this guy think he needs that extra boost? Maybe because he isn't confident of his shooting? And if we are honest, more than one client has done exactly that. Experience that a few times and he could be forgiven for generalizing.
...

Seriously?

You turned the whole discussion around to .375H&H is all one needs?

So, using your logic, then the PH thinks the same for everyone that shows up with calibers that start with a .4xx and .5XX after all "a 375HH does about what needs to and can be done with a 375 for ordinary buffalo hunting at ordinary distance"?

 

[Bert the Turtle]

Seriously?

You turned the whole discussion around to .375H&H is all one needs?

So, using your logic, then the PH thinks the same for everyone that shows up with calibers that start with a .4xx and .5XX after all "a 375HH does about what needs to and can be done with a 375 for ordinary buffalo hunting at ordinary distance"?

I have no idea where you got the idea that I said 375HH is all one needs. Please look again at what I wrote and what you quoted. I will bold the important part that you seem not to have taken into consideration: "a 375HH does about what needs to and can be done with a 375 for ordinary buffalo hunting at ordinary distance".

That very specifically says what can be done with a 375. I said nothing whatsoever about what can be done with a 4xx or 5xx let alone there being no need for a 4xx or 5xx.

All I said was that at ordinary buffalo hunting distance (i.e. <100 yards), that a 375HH is going to give you about as much as you can get with a 375. That is to say, the extra velocity afforded by a 375 Weatherby isn't going to give you much benefit at close range (ordinary buffalo hunting distance).

I can plausibly see misinterpreting my statement "he needed it to be more deadly than an ordinary 375HH, that would of course make any rational person wonder why does this guy think he needs that extra boost?" as meaning that I think a 375HH is all one needs. However, that sentence begins "If a guy shows up with a 375 Weatherby, the PH didn't know why he chose that. If he chose it because he felt he needed it to be more deadly than an ordinary 375HH..." I am very specifically (and in my opinion clearly) referring to a 375 Weatherby vs. a 375HH.

In my opinion, if you want more than a 375HH gives you at <100yards, the answer is to go to something bigger, not to drive the 375 bullet faster. Driving the bullet faster than say 2600fps has utility for use at range, not for up close. Again, my post opens by discussing the utility of the added velocity of the Weatherby cartridges.

For the record, I do not think a 375HH is all one needs, and shot my 3 buffaloes and my elephant with a 404. Not that it is much bigger, but it does illustrate my belief that if one wants something more than a 375HH (at close range) one should choose something bigger, not something faster.