Why are Weatherby guns in 375+ calibers not liked on a Safari?

rookhawk

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There is a lot of interest here in these topics so it might be worth taking a step back to understand form and function because there are many variables that come into all these “religious” doctrines.

The first thing to understand is Roy Weatherby founded a religion based on a principle: Speed Kills.

The Swedish Mauser in 6.5x55 Swedish would be the antithetical view to Roy’s religion. Heavy for caliber bullets fly true and their moderate speed results in more “hang time” in the animal to deplete the energy of the projectile by slowly burrowing a very large expanding mushroom into the animal. This ideology in contrast to Roy’s religion is best demonstrated by the 6.5x55, the 7x57, the .318 Westley, and other small bores. To a lesser extent, it is present in the large bores like the 404 Jeffery and the 450-400 NE.

So now that we know the golden rules of these two competing religions, what are the consequences that come from these primary commandments.

If you follow Roy, that speed creates a lot of recoil. It also creates a benefit of flat shooting guns. The MPBR (maximum point blank range) increases moderately in this religion but not substantially, yet the recoil increases a lot. Say 8% to 15% MPBR for 50% more recoil. So now that recoil must be contended with. Roy has an idea! Let’s take the montecarlo straight comb stock (you can mass produce them, they fit everyone the same....poorly) from bench rest shooting and lets them put negative drop at comb so your face doesn’t incline on the stock, but rather declined upon forward recoil getting your face off the stock before you are jarred by skidding your face over a gloss finish for 1”-2” of travel. It works. So now Roy’s religion has created new benefits and new problems. Bad stock fit for rapid snap shooting is a problem, but recoil management, mass production for fit with high ring scopes is a benefit. Now you have a stock that works from a bench to hold a giant scope with a flat shooting cartridge for modest improvements to long range shooting.

Is Roy correct? His theory does work. Speed does kill. Swedish theory is true also, hang time and heavy for caliber guns at moderate velocities kills really well too. They are killing with different mechanisms in different ratios. (Generally tissue damage versus hydrostatic shock and sheer)

So that was Roy’s premise and how it started. He was right to a more profound level on the little stuff, 257 and 270 weatherby works so well because it’s killing with small bullets at high speeds like .243 win and .25-06. Further, Roy’s ammo was optimized to max loads plus 2% more. How did he avoid lawyers saying he shouldn’t sell such hit ammo?

integrated supply chain. If you make the framers, and the actions, and the barrels, and you sole-source powder and brass from one private label (Norma) you can rigorously test and sell extreme ammo for extreme guns. To do this with non-Weatherbys you’d need to hand load and test under various conditions that no private individuals are really equipped to do.

So back to the traditional religion, they wanted the fast acquisition stock dimensions of England or Mid-century America. They wanted a low scope mount so the stock geometry works with irons or optics. They wanted feed to be assured. They wanted lighter weights without recoil discomfort. They wanted animals dead too. That’s where heavy for caliber bullets making big holes comes in. 450gr .404 Jeff at 38lbs to 43lbs of recoil is a perfect example of the antithesis of Roy’s religion. Yet it slays Buffalo way better than the .375HH because it is doing more “Swede” things than “Roy” things in its functions.

So this is why it’s such a complex discussion. What do you love about or hate about Roy’s religion? Some of his beliefs were probably not ideal, but consequences or solutions to following his other edicts.

Do you hate Roy calibers and recoil? Which ones and why? (For me, the bigger, the worse)

Do you hate Roy’s stocks that are needed more and more the bigger you go?

Do you hate his push feed actions?

Do you hate the factory max load principle because you get 95% there by factory loading standard cartridges.

Do you dislike the uninformed snobbery that thinks a gun 15% more to any other department store gun is the best that there is when it’s still in the utility-camp price point?

Do you have historical biases that were true and made Roy a fool that aren’t true anymore? (Jacket separation by launching bullets that fast before bonded bullets existed)

It’s a quagmire. But I lean against Roy because he was an inventor that took little appreciation in history. He thought he discovered most of this stuff, ignoring 10,000 brilliant inventors that tried it all and evolved a strategy over 200 years with tremendous thought, avoiding Roy’s conclusions because of the dozen consequences to his premise “speed kills”.
 

Arthur Morta

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We get a number of 'big guns' at our club range, like the 577's 600's, and so on. The other day I experienced the blast from a 378WM with a muzzle recoil suppressor and it was another level all together. Not pleasant to be anywhere near that beast!

I wonder whose that was Kevin?
 

Kevin Peacocke

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You my friend! I take my hat off to you, I would never be able to tolerate that recoil, the noise was enough! You definitely have the most powerful rifle on the range.
 

BeeMaa

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There is a lot of interest here in these topics so it might be worth taking a step back to understand form and function because there are many variables that come into all these “religious” doctrines.

The first thing to understand is Roy Weatherby founded a religion based on a principle: Speed Kills.

The Swedish Mauser in 6.5x55 Swedish would be the antithetical view to Roy’s religion. Heavy for caliber bullets fly true and their moderate speed results in more “hang time” in the animal to deplete the energy of the projectile by slowly burrowing a very large expanding mushroom into the animal. This ideology in contrast to Roy’s religion is best demonstrated by the 6.5x55, the 7x57, the .318 Westley, and other small bores. To a lesser extent, it is present in the large bores like the 404 Jeffery and the 450-400 NE.

So now that we know the golden rules of these two competing religions, what are the consequences that come from these primary commandments.

If you follow Roy, that speed creates a lot of recoil. It also creates a benefit of flat shooting guns. The MPBR (maximum point blank range) increases moderately in this religion but not substantially, yet the recoil increases a lot. Say 8% to 15% MPBR for 50% more recoil. So now that recoil must be contended with. Roy has an idea! Let’s take the montecarlo straight comb stock (you can mass produce them, they fit everyone the same....poorly) from bench rest shooting and lets them put negative drop at comb so your face doesn’t incline on the stock, but rather declined upon forward recoil getting your face off the stock before you are jarred by skidding your face over a gloss finish for 1”-2” of travel. It works. So now Roy’s religion has created new benefits and new problems. Bad stock fit for rapid snap shooting is a problem, but recoil management, mass production for fit with high ring scopes is a benefit. Now you have a stock that works from a bench to hold a giant scope with a flat shooting cartridge for modest improvements to long range shooting.

Is Roy correct? His theory does work. Speed does kill. Swedish theory is true also, hang time and heavy for caliber guns at moderate velocities kills really well too. They are killing with different mechanisms in different ratios. (Generally tissue damage versus hydrostatic shock and sheer)

So that was Roy’s premise and how it started. He was right to a more profound level on the little stuff, 257 and 270 weatherby works so well because it’s killing with small bullets at high speeds like .243 win and .25-06. Further, Roy’s ammo was optimized to max loads plus 2% more. How did he avoid lawyers saying he shouldn’t sell such hit ammo?

integrated supply chain. If you make the framers, and the actions, and the barrels, and you sole-source powder and brass from one private label (Norma) you can rigorously test and sell extreme ammo for extreme guns. To do this with non-Weatherbys you’d need to hand load and test under various conditions that no private individuals are really equipped to do.

So back to the traditional religion, they wanted the fast acquisition stock dimensions of England or Mid-century America. They wanted a low scope mount so the stock geometry works with irons or optics. They wanted feed to be assured. They wanted lighter weights without recoil discomfort. They wanted animals dead too. That’s where heavy for caliber bullets making big holes comes in. 450gr .404 Jeff at 38lbs to 43lbs of recoil is a perfect example of the antithesis of Roy’s religion. Yet it slays Buffalo way better than the .375HH because it is doing more “Swede” things than “Roy” things in its functions.

So this is why it’s such a complex discussion. What do you love about or hate about Roy’s religion? Some of his beliefs were probably not ideal, but consequences or solutions to following his other edicts.

Do you hate Roy calibers and recoil? Which ones and why? (For me, the bigger, the worse)

Do you hate Roy’s stocks that are needed more and more the bigger you go?

Do you hate his push feed actions?

Do you hate the factory max load principle because you get 95% there by factory loading standard cartridges.

Do you dislike the uninformed snobbery that thinks a gun 15% more to any other department store gun is the best that there is when it’s still in the utility-camp price point?

Do you have historical biases that were true and made Roy a fool that aren’t true anymore? (Jacket separation by launching bullets that fast before bonded bullets existed)

It’s a quagmire. But I lean against Roy because he was an inventor that took little appreciation in history. He thought he discovered most of this stuff, ignoring 10,000 brilliant inventors that tried it all and evolved a strategy over 200 years with tremendous thought, avoiding Roy’s conclusions because of the dozen consequences to his premise “speed kills”.
I make it easy...I'm an atheist.
 

RayAtkinson

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Most PHs and many seasoned hunters of DG consider the Wby to have too much velocity and tend to tear up bullets particularly at close range..Thats the primary complaint, too much velocity tends to slow down penetration as a matter of fact,, a bullet expanding too fast slows the bullet down...These are the problems that raised their ugly head..Justifiable? I doubt it, probably came about by poor bullet choice..Ive seen the 300 Wby perform miracles on game of all sorts, owned a couple of them but wasn't my cup of tea, I preferred the .338 and 9.3x62 for light rifles as rule with others of various caliber just for determining my search for the perfect caliber, have yet to arrive at a particular caliber..
 

Mike Van Horn

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There is a lot of interest here in these topics so it might be worth taking a step back to understand form and function because there are many variables that come into all these “religious” doctrines.

The first thing to understand is Roy Weatherby founded a religion based on a principle: Speed Kills.

The Swedish Mauser in 6.5x55 Swedish would be the antithetical view to Roy’s religion. Heavy for caliber bullets fly true and their moderate speed results in more “hang time” in the animal to deplete the energy of the projectile by slowly burrowing a very large expanding mushroom into the animal. This ideology in contrast to Roy’s religion is best demonstrated by the 6.5x55, the 7x57, the .318 Westley, and other small bores. To a lesser extent, it is present in the large bores like the 404 Jeffery and the 450-400 NE.

So now that we know the golden rules of these two competing religions, what are the consequences that come from these primary commandments.

If you follow Roy, that speed creates a lot of recoil. It also creates a benefit of flat shooting guns. The MPBR (maximum point blank range) increases moderately in this religion but not substantially, yet the recoil increases a lot. Say 8% to 15% MPBR for 50% more recoil. So now that recoil must be contended with. Roy has an idea! Let’s take the montecarlo straight comb stock (you can mass produce them, they fit everyone the same....poorly) from bench rest shooting and lets them put negative drop at comb so your face doesn’t incline on the stock, but rather declined upon forward recoil getting your face off the stock before you are jarred by skidding your face over a gloss finish for 1”-2” of travel. It works. So now Roy’s religion has created new benefits and new problems. Bad stock fit for rapid snap shooting is a problem, but recoil management, mass production for fit with high ring scopes is a benefit. Now you have a stock that works from a bench to hold a giant scope with a flat shooting cartridge for modest improvements to long range shooting.

Is Roy correct? His theory does work. Speed does kill. Swedish theory is true also, hang time and heavy for caliber guns at moderate velocities kills really well too. They are killing with different mechanisms in different ratios. (Generally tissue damage versus hydrostatic shock and sheer)

So that was Roy’s premise and how it started. He was right to a more profound level on the little stuff, 257 and 270 weatherby works so well because it’s killing with small bullets at high speeds like .243 win and .25-06. Further, Roy’s ammo was optimized to max loads plus 2% more. How did he avoid lawyers saying he shouldn’t sell such hit ammo?

integrated supply chain. If you make the framers, and the actions, and the barrels, and you sole-source powder and brass from one private label (Norma) you can rigorously test and sell extreme ammo for extreme guns. To do this with non-Weatherbys you’d need to hand load and test under various conditions that no private individuals are really equipped to do.

So back to the traditional religion, they wanted the fast acquisition stock dimensions of England or Mid-century America. They wanted a low scope mount so the stock geometry works with irons or optics. They wanted feed to be assured. They wanted lighter weights without recoil discomfort. They wanted animals dead too. That’s where heavy for caliber bullets making big holes comes in. 450gr .404 Jeff at 38lbs to 43lbs of recoil is a perfect example of the antithesis of Roy’s religion. Yet it slays Buffalo way better than the .375HH because it is doing more “Swede” things than “Roy” things in its functions.

So this is why it’s such a complex discussion. What do you love about or hate about Roy’s religion? Some of his beliefs were probably not ideal, but consequences or solutions to following his other edicts.

Do you hate Roy calibers and recoil? Which ones and why? (For me, the bigger, the worse)

Do you hate Roy’s stocks that are needed more and more the bigger you go?

Do you hate his push feed actions?

Do you hate the factory max load principle because you get 95% there by factory loading standard cartridges.

Do you dislike the uninformed snobbery that thinks a gun 15% more to any other department store gun is the best that there is when it’s still in the utility-camp price point?

Do you have historical biases that were true and made Roy a fool that aren’t true anymore? (Jacket separation by launching bullets that fast before bonded bullets existed)

It’s a quagmire. But I lean against Roy because he was an inventor that took little appreciation in history. He thought he discovered most of this stuff, ignoring 10,000 brilliant inventors that tried it all and evolved a strategy over 200 years with tremendous thought, avoiding Roy’s conclusions because of the dozen consequences to his premise “speed kills”.

While we're taking a step back, maybe we should read the OP topic!!
375+
 

rookhawk

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While we're taking a step back, maybe we should read the OP topic!!
375+

I started with the principle that created the movement. Roy just kept upping the size and making bigger guns under the same principles. The bigger they go, the more problematic they become. The additional consequences to achieve Roy’s solutions with large bores are why they aren’t as popular.
Don’t want push feed. Don’t want excessive recoil. Don’t want jacket separation. Don’t want bad stock geometry. Don’t want a flinch. Don’t want a muzzlebreak to prevent a flinch. Don’t want ammo running at max load in a tropical environment. Don’t want a mass produced rifle on a safari.

pick any of the above. But do so understanding why Roy did what he did.
 

BeeMaa

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Tortoise and the Hare...we all know who won that race.
 

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