Westley Richards Shotgun Help

[mikecatt13]

Can anyone shed some light on this WR 12 gauge? Everything look legit? Approximate value?

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/981438467

Thanks in advance!

 

[WAB]

This gun doesn’t look right. I can’t explain it, but I was just through their factory, handling a number of their guns, and this does not look like one. The wood finish for one, does not look anything like their oil finish. The case hardening is completely different. I could be way off but I’d steer clear.

Oh, and new they start at about $70,000. Something doesn’t add up.

 

[Berettaco]

Looks legit to me - had a 16 bore droplock a while back - super nice shotguns. This one has double triggers (most I’ve seen are single) and 2 sets of barrels - big negative is the 2.5” chambers. It has been professionally “restored” but I would imagine it was restocked at some time - I’m not a British double expert but I haven’t seen many from that era with stocks that nice - guessing it’s a new stick of French walnut.
I would guesstimate it to be worth around $10K.

 

[Berettaco]

Actually I’d bet a nice bottle of whisky that it has been restocked - the wood is still quite proud of the metal, vintage British doubles are usually sent in for maintenance and refinishing which results in wood to metal be equal or metal just a touch proud.

 

[discap]

Magnificent gun, all the right stuff. Definitely refinished/restored/restocked. I've had several. $10,000

Bill

 

[WAB]

Restocking would explain why it doesn’t look right to me. If it has in fact been restocked, I would want to know who did it. I am fairly certain it wasn’t done at the factory.

 

[discap]

Just curious, why would you care who restocked it? The work is fabulous. It is perfectly "headed up" even with the scalloped action. The wood stands proud just the right amount. Proportions on the stock are excellent. The leather covered pad is very nice.

Whatever his/her name is, their profession should be "professional stocker"

Bill

 

[WAB]

Just curious, why would you care who restocked it? The work is fabulous. It is perfectly "headed up" even with the scalloped action. The wood stands proud just the right amount. Proportions on the stock are excellent. The leather covered pad is very nice.

Whatever his/her name is, their profession should be "professional stocker"

Bill

I’d be more concerned about what you don’t see. The process of getting the bearing surfaces exactly right is critical. If I were buying, I would want to know that the stocker is experienced in this. Someone with a ton of experience on bolt guns could make a beautiful stock and get this bit wrong. Just my two cents and likely over valued at that

 

[discap]

I agree completely with your bolt action rifle comments.

The difference here is that the bearing points for a box lock are where it hits the action and these can be clearly seen in the photographs. This is where probably 90% of the recoil is taken up. The scalloped action is terribly difficult to match up to. From the pictures it is perfect. Most of the remaining inletting is simply to get the wood out of the way of the metal. The exception is the "through" screw in the tang. This must be a tight fit. The only way to check it is to remove it, which risks damaging the screw. The scalloped action is terribly difficult to match up to. From the pictures it is perfect.

Having done this a few times I would have no issue with the stocking based on the pictures.

What needs to be checked is the function of the ejectors and the trigger pulls.

Good discussion.

Bill

 

[318AE]

My sense is that it is both restocked and reblacked. It was likely in good shape ahead of being reblacked, and the engraving doesn’t look to be polished out, as it sometimes the case. I think the stock looks great, and is a much nicer piece of wood than I’ve seen on most vintage guns.

I agree - I would focus on function of the ejectors, trigger pull and wall thickness etc…

 

[mikecatt13]

Thank you guys! I'm quickly diving into the SxS world and learning (or trying to).

Since it's been restocked already, would having it converted to 2 3/4" devalue much?

Next question is...I've run across info that the NP 1 1/4 barrels are ok with modern 1oz target loads. What about the 1 1/8 which this gun has?

I'd like to avoid reloading, but would be willing for the right gun.

 

[BGHNTR416]

Go to RST for 2 1/2 inch shells. One ounce loads from them are great for vintage doubles. The description is very good and obviously this gun had been restocked and refurbished as stated. The work appears very good. The quality of the wood and the figure is amazing but isn't "British" and certainly not vintage British. This turns off some collectors. Someone spent a lot of money on that gun though.

 

[sierraone]

@mikecatt13 If you can confirm this is in fact an old rebuilt/refinished WR and you want a 2.5 inch chamber, it is a great deal. I agree with @WAB about the stock finish. I have been to the WR factory also and have never seen a WR stock finish like this one. Also you can call L.D. McCaa at Gulf Breeze Firearms in Gulf Breeze Florida. He is the North American Westley rep at 850-932-4867. The Westley Shop is apart of the Gulf Breeze Firearms complex. If this gun is confirmed to be a Westley, its probably worth much more than the current owner is asking. At least that is my opinion. Good Luck.

 

[Major Bonkers]

Important: check the barrel wall thickness.

 

[rgsiii]

It looks to be restocked. The serial date is if I am reading it correctly places it from 1901-1908. The barrel has gunmaker to George V--he was king from 1910-1936. Makes me wonder if that barrel is original to the gun or added at a later date.
One of the barrel flats has no proof markings, apparently they are on the barrel. I think that a bit odd.
I would not rechamber it to 2 3/4. There are articles saying there is minimal pressure changes shooting 2 3/4 in 2 1/2 chambers.
You must use low pressure loads. RST used to be a good source for appropriate ammunition--it is erratically available. Some other appropriate ammunition is available from time to time.
Westley Richards USA does not have records in the US. They will refer you to the UK. I recently requested a history and it was a little over a month to get it back.

 

[discap]

One thing to remember. Shotguns have no "collector" value. I am talking about in comparison to Colt Single actions etc. I consider this a good thing. Shotguns have value because they are beautiful and you can hunt with them. If it's not beautiful and doesn't shoot it has no value. I have seen rusted hulks of Colt SAA sell for $10,000, pure "collector" value. A rusted Purdey with bad barrels and a busted stock is worth next to nothing.

So with this in mind, no you won't destroy the "collector" value by lengthening the chambers. If the chambers can be lengthened safely then I believe the population of potential buyers would actually increase. In the US no "proofing" is required. JJ Perodeaux can easily check to see if the chambers can be lengthened. I have done many myself, including a WR of the same era.

If JJ determines that he is unable to lengthen the chambers, you nowadays have the option to buy 2 1/2" shells. No harm no foul and a wonderful gun to hunt with.

Let the flaming begin

Just my $0.02 worth
Bill

 

[rgsiii]

Sherman Bell in the Double Gun Journal showed there was a minimal increase in pressure going from 2 1/2 inch shells to 2 3/4 inch. The issue is the pressure that is generated by our US rounds. The typical English game gun had a working pressure of a round 9,000 PSI, this is less than many of our lite loads. Repeated use of most our US loads will be detrimental these shotguns. Lengthening the chamber will offer no benefit and will decrease the value of the gun, if a person wants it to be in proof.

 

[discap]

rgsiii To reinforce your comments on pressure, notice that the WR only has a top extension for locking. Although from a leverage view it is good, it is the only thing that keeps the action closed. These should only be used with light loads. Plus they typically pattern better with lower velocity/pressure loads.

 

[BGHNTR416]

"To reinforce your comments on pressure, notice that the WR only has a top extension for locking"
Actually, it has a double underbite. The top extension is a 3rd bite, locking the barrels down in 3 places.

 

[Major Bonkers]

BGHNTR416 - that's correct. If the barrels are 'off face', it is a relatively easy matter to sort that out (by cold-welding additional metal to the lumps).

More serious is the erosion of the barrels by firing x-number of rounds through them. In the UK it is illegal to sell a weapon that is out of proof, with the result that a lot of shotguns on the verge of failing the minimum barrel thickness recommendations come up for sale, as well as shotguns that have - or would - fail re-proofing, so are sold as lock and stock only.

The cost of rebarrelling a shotgun is typically about the worth of a second-hand shotgun: ie. you have to buy the thing with worn out barrels, buy some new barrels, and you are left with something the value of which is not much far off from what you paid for it, but excluding what you spent on it.

Some 10 years ago, Holland and Holland quoted me £12,000 to rebarrel a shotgun (which was about what the shotgun was worth). About a year ago, Rigby quoted me something like £25,000 - memory fails me slightly - for rebarrelling (which was considerably more than the shotgun was worth). Westley Richards won't do it at all. If you have a pair, you run the risk that the barrels will be heavier or different between the two shotguns (even if they went back to the original maker - I have a pair of Westley Richards like this).

A shotgun is, like any machine, subject to wear and tear. At some point it becomes worn out; unless you have some very good reason to spend a lot of money on it - which you will never get back - it is best to treat it as a decorative object and buy a new one. Alternatively, you could run the risk that it will, literally, blow up in your hands.