US Fish and Wildlife withdraws 17 enhancement findings for elephant and lion

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Sorry, I don’t mean to intrude on the conversation taking place already. But, there are also people such as myself who are being influenced in the other direction as well. To GO HUNT ELEPHANT, because we can afford to. Whereas I might not have been able to otherwise. I am in the other boat. I can be completely happy with replica tusks or no “trophy” at all. Just the hunt and pictures as the trophy. I think over time if imports don’t happen, probably more people will decide to just go hunt for the experience.

Spot on!

Please go and hunt, it's your chance to give the ole number 1 to USFWS.

 

[johnnyblues]

Hmmmm. For me it comes really close but only because the budget can only go so far. Don’t you think I’d love to go to somewhere like Tanzania or Mozambique and do a traditional tented 21 day safari for 100k? Of course I would. So saying the experience verses the collection are very different, there not. For me they are the same, and I suspect for many other members. I guess what I’m saying is it’s tough to find the balance.

 

[wesheltonj]

. . . USFWS to my knowledge has no jurisdiction over foreign countries. . . . .

Not yet. However some laws are enforceable upon US citizens outside the USA. A few that come to mine. (1) Travel embargo; (2) Bribing a foreign official (good thing those payments at JNB are "tips"); (3) Protect Act of 2003 (and swearing that she looked 18 is not a defense).

 

[Hogpatrol]

Good discussion, bottom line, we're all on the same side.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Oh I think I'm getting very close to the quick for some, but I'm on solid ground

whether it offends someone or not.

At the risk of offending even more folks I think the real issue is that many don't like admitting that collecting is more important to them than the experience of hunting, or helping to fund conversation.

And again, there is nothing wrong with being a collector first.

I'm not in to the trophy thing as some may think. I generally look at game like this: Had venison inside tenderloins for dinner tonight

 

[cbvanb]

The Federal Government attitude is that all laws are enforceable against a US citizen, anywhere in the world. There will likely come a time when hunting certain species is made illegal for US citizens if the wrong people get their way.
My input on the “trinket” argument is this: we are consumers of a renewable resource that must be managed. If I got to a store and make a large purchase I can tell myself that I have made a contribution to the economy in the form of taxes, wages for the people who made and sold the items, etc. All of that is good, but not so good that I’m leaving my purchase on the counter. I want what I paid for.

 

[Royal27]

The Federal Government attitude is that all laws are enforceable against a US citizen, anywhere in the world. There will likely come a time when hunting certain species is made illegal for US citizens if the wrong people get their way.
My input on the “trinket” argument is this: we are consumers of a renewable resource that must be managed. If I got to a store and make a large purchase I can tell myself that I have made a contribution to the economy in the form of taxes, wages for the people who made and sold the items, etc. All of that is good, but not so good that I’m leaving my purchase on the counter. I want what I paid for.

Then I assume you never went to Africa since meat could not be imported back to the States, right?

 

[Hogpatrol]

Then I assume you never went to Africa since meat could not be imported back to the States, right?

Leave the meat, take the trophy.

 

[cbvanb]

Then I assume you never went to Africa since meat could not be imported back to the States, right?

Don’t be rediculous, we don’t hang meat on a wall. The value of a trophy is what each of us decides it is. That we have different values for the trinkets, as you call them, doesn’t make either one of us wrong. I don’t take issue with your opinion regarding the value of the hunt, only with your notion that an elephant hunt means the same with or without a trophy to bring home and display. For many hunters an elephant hunt is the culmination of a lifetime of dreaming and saving money, and it will only happen once. That trophy, whether tusks or hide or a mount, becomes a symbol for all the effort that was required to make it happen. It’s something that can be left behind for following generations, some of whom will appreciate all that it means.
And you seem to belittle all of that. On this we will forever disagree.
Would I hunt elephant now, when the prices have been driven down below the cost of a buffalo hunt in some cases? Sure. But I have elephant trophies, and I can understand someone who would not, for reasons I have already stated.

 

[Royal27]

Not belittling anyone at all, nor am I opposed to someone who won't hunt without the trophy, at all. I've said that multiple times in this thread and elsewhere. I will leave it at that.

 

[kevin masters]

Oh I'm not denying that limiting the consumption isn't the idea. It most certainly is. I'm arguing that HUNTERS are the ones who support the import ban and make it successful. Not USFWS, not PETA, not President Trump, but HUNTERS.

you have a very odd logic, just my opinion!!!

 

[fourfive8]

Almost seems like the USFWS has become more and more of a political tool and less and less of a conservation tool. They (USFWS/current DC Admin) tipped their hand when confronted by Botswana official about illegal international elephant (parts) trade and responded proudly by saying that no elephants (parts) have recently been imported into the US- acknowledging the faulty premise that a legally harvested and imported elephant part has something to do with a poached elephant part ending up in China!! An answer that wreaks of the anti-hunting/anti-hunter political sentiment at all levels in DC. I'm very certain the Chinese and other users of illegal animal parts are quite happy with current US political and USFWS policies..

 

[IdaRam]

Please go and hunt, it's your chance to give the ole number 1 to USFWS.

Absolutely! I am trying to make it happen. Damn tax man ain’t making it easy for me this year though Looking forward to new tax code changes!

 

[jeff]

A PH told me that hunting a trophy bull elephant and not getting to keep the ivory is like marrying a beautiful woman and not being allowed to having sex with her.

 

[enysse]

A PH told me that hunting a trophy bull elephant and not getting to keep the ivory is like marrying a beautiful woman and not being allowed to having sex with her.

LOL, well it certainly doesn't help marketing!

 

[johnnyblues]

Don’t be rediculous, we don’t hang meat on a wall. The value of a trophy is what each of us decides it is. That we have different values for the trinkets, as you call them, doesn’t make either one of us wrong. I don’t take issue with your opinion regarding the value of the hunt, only with your notion that an elephant hunt means the same with or without a trophy to bring home and display. For many hunters an elephant hunt is the culmination of a lifetime of dreaming and saving money, and it will only happen once. That trophy, whether tusks or hide or a mount, becomes a symbol for all the effort that was required to make it happen. It’s something that can be left behind for following generations, some of whom will appreciate all that it means.
And you seem to belittle all of that. On this we will forever disagree.
Would I hunt elephant now, when the prices have been driven down below the cost of a buffalo hunt in some cases? Sure. But I have elephant trophies, and I can understand someone who would not, for reasons I have already stated.

Man that was well said! Thank you.

 

[Scott Slough]

A PH told me that hunting a trophy bull elephant and not getting to keep the ivory is like marrying a beautiful woman and not being allowed to having sex with her.

No it is like getting to have sex with her but only getting show pictures to your friends..you can have sex with her and enjoy it...or you can whine about it on a listserve!

 

[Bruce]

I can sympathise and agree to NOT being dictated to regarding what/ when/ where I hunt etc.
For me, living in RSA, I can import from anywhere that I hunt ( Zimbabwe/ Zambia/ Namibia/ Mozam bique etc) and probably Europe and South America as well, should I get to hunt there someday.
My predicament and DISPLEASURE is that IN South Africa, when hunting trophies I cannot even get to keep the meat. I hunt for the pleasure and adventure and also for the meat...most Outfitters/ Landowners today are making extra money from selling the meat after the hunt is over. I therefore have difficulty in finding suitable hunting areas where I can hunt properly, enjoy the adventure with my sons and friends AND KEEP THE MEAT!!!
So, I don't have govt telling me what I can and cannot do... BUT the Oufitter/ Landowner doing that!!

 

[wesheltonj]

I can sympathise and agree to NOT being dictated to regarding what/ when/ where I hunt etc.
For me, living in RSA, I can import from anywhere that I hunt ( Zimbabwe/ Zambia/ Namibia/ Mozam bique etc) and probably Europe and South America as well, should I get to hunt there someday.
My predicament and DISPLEASURE is that IN South Africa, when hunting trophies I cannot even get to keep the meat. I hunt for the pleasure and adventure and also for the meat...most Outfitters/ Landowners today are making extra money from selling the meat after the hunt is over. I therefore have difficulty in finding suitable hunting areas where I can hunt properly, enjoy the adventure with my sons and friends AND KEEP THE MEAT!!!
So, I don't have govt telling me what I can and cannot do... BUT the Oufitter/ Landowner doing that!!

I am sure if you paid them what they are selling the meat for, they would be happy to let you keep the meat.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

No it is like getting to have sex with her but only getting show pictures to your friends..you can have sex with her and enjoy it...or you can whine about it on a listserve!

Hah, that's funny! And correct.