The Thermal Camera (Thermal Imager) Debate

What do you think about Thermal Cameras in the Hunting Environment?

  • In my mind it is un-ethical (please expand below)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • In my mind it is ethical

    Votes: 5 27.8%
  • Ethics are not part of the equation it is a management tool to help manage and control wildlife

    Votes: 5 27.8%
  • I am fine with it for hogs

    Votes: 2 11.1%
  • I am fine with it for predators

    Votes: 3 16.7%
  • I am ok with the use of thermals during the day time on big game species, predators and hogs only

    Votes: 2 11.1%
  • I am ok with the use of thermals during day time on predators and hogs

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I would be ok with having to take a class and buy a permit to use one similar to archery

    Votes: 1 5.6%
  • I am ok with their use night and day, as long as legal on all legal game.

    Votes: 10 55.6%

  • Total voters
    18
  • Poll closed .

Muskox

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BLUF: Thermals are a tool for the hunter, the game agency, the wildlife manager, and the predator or hog hunter.

There are perceived and real ethical thoughts on thermals that create emotion.

Cons:
1. Thermals increase success finding wildlife in the woods. While this sounds like a positive, if you are issuing 100 tags as a wildlife agency and you increase success to 70-80% by allowing thermals, and you traditionally have 40-50% success you will have a hard drop over time in the quantity and quality of wildlife you are producing. Reducing opportunity in the long run, by straining the wildlife resource.
2. Every technology that increases harvest rate (I don't like that word either, but this is the language of wildlife management) is fraught with public opinion outcries. This is no different, as thermals are militaryesque in nature, and it can be perceived by hunters and non hunters alike as providing an unfair advantage.
3. Thermals do not allow for the positive ID 100% on all wildlife including antlers, antlers tend to be invisible with thermal spotters. But you can see body conformation on better quality models, and this can be used to determine if an animal is an adult male or not. Night vision does allow a hunter to see the antlers, but it does not highlight the animal so you can easily find them. There are multi-spectral models that are both thermal and night vision, these are $2500-10,000.
4. There is a significant entry to barrier, as most thermals are $600-10,000. Very good models can be had for under $1800. This may be seen by certain financial groups as a rich man's toy.
5. Species like Mule deer and Coues deer that live there entire lives by hiding during the day and being nocturnal at night, can be more easily found during the day time by scanning a hill, and looking for the small thermal dot of the head. Where many hours or minutes of glassing would be required to break a hill down. Creating a high harvest of mature deer, in a species that requires a soft hand with management.
6. In more open or vertical areas where a safe bullet backstop or kugelfang is not a problem, safety must be very critical to avoid shooting into an inhabited building.

Pros:
1. Thermals allow for expanded wildlife observation and in some cases control both day and night. They also work in fog.
2. Thermal allow for hunters to be more effective, and spend less time working on areas that do not have wildlife.
3. Thermals allow for some level of expanded safety, a thermal signature of a man walking isn't 100% discernible from a deer headed straight on, but over some time of observation it quickly becomes apparent. Me "is that a fox?, no that's a badger", transition to rifle with night vision bang flop. European badger at night in Slovenia. Fantastic!

Absolutes:
1. Thermals are not night vision, they can distort the image and cause you to think that what you are seeing is something else. Especially in the lower financial tier products. So not 100% successful for safety. I feel as though a thermal handheld should always be paired with a night vision rifle scope for predator work at night, not with another thermal rifle scope.
2. Thermals are not cheap!
 

I would be ok with having to take a class and buy a permit to use one similar to archery​



where is this the standard? Germany?

To my knowledge no state in the US requires a class or a permit to bow hunt.. your standard hunting license and hunter safety class applies just like it does for rifle hunting..
 
I personally don't consider it ethical to hunt big game with thermals. In every other circumstance, I'm ok with it.
 
I have had the same ethical discussion with others about the use of drones. I have seen drones used to locate big game to hunt and to push big game like high-tech dogs. For me when a drone, night vision, or thermals are used to guarantee success it takes the challenge out of hunting.

Another discussion is the use of Garmin Live Scope for fishing. I guess that hunting and fishing are just too hard for some people! The use of a Garmin Live Scope is a little different in that you still cannot make the fish bite.

I do use thermals, night vision, and drones to recover wounded animals and for predator hunting just not big game. I am not against the legal use of these tools in appropriate and legal situations.
 
Thermals are good for hunting game like hogs. I've used night vision that you would be amazed to see the level of detail possible in just the barest of light. No idea of if the same technology is available for civilians.

I do carry a thermal viewer for recovering game for after it gets dark and to make sure that the dog has pooped at night in wintertime.
 
I do carry a thermal viewer for recovering game for after it gets dark and to make sure that the dog has pooped at night in wintertime.
I can honestly say that's a use I haven't heard before. :LOL:
 
One of the drawbacks to the thermal scopes is the lack of depth perception.

I am ok with a handheld scanner for locating big game.
Having used one in thick cover, my experience was that it is not the end all that some people think it might be.

There is a ton of stuff that throw heat signatures, both day time and night.

Very useful tool for shooting things that need shooting after sunset, at known distances. We typically set a predator call at about 60 yards out and start calling.

A cool thing about thermal scopes is that you can see what is watching. I frequently see owls move in when I hit the distress call.
 
I can honestly say that's a use I haven't heard before. :LOL:
Works well in winter when there's snow on the ground and the dog has wandered off into one of the dark corners of the yard
492437498_23940088018910653_1671827615375775886_n.jpg
 
The only cons that I have in using my day/night thermal scope, a DNT335 are:

Eye injury
Doesn't work when: looking into fog, heavy dew/ light or misty rain, heavy grass/brush

The pros are:

Visibility is like looking through a HD camera lens,
Ability to video the shot, game & non game animals in daytime and at night
Has an active built in range finder that allows to range an animal while it is moving which allows me to adjust my point of aim

Hunting solo using a night vision or thermal scope eliminates fumbling around with a spotlight when legally hunting night animals ie raccoons, coyotes, hogs/pigs, jackals, porcupines, other varmints that only come out at night.
 

I would be ok with having to take a class and buy a permit to use one similar to archery​



where is this the standard? Germany?

To my knowledge no state in the US requires a class or a permit to bow hunt.. your standard hunting license and hunter safety class applies just like it does for rifle hunting..
Dave, actually Montana does require you to take a bow hunter specific safety course separate from the normal hunters ed course in order to purchase a bow hunting permit prior to archery hunting elk or deer etc
 
Dave, actually Montana does require you to take a bow hunter specific safety course separate from the normal hunters ed course in order to purchase a bow hunting permit prior to archery hunting elk or deer etc
Same with Idaho. I used to teach Hunter's Ed, and you need a separate Bowhunter Education class if you're going to go bowhunting. Plus, you cannot use any electronics on your bow here. When I moved up here, they finally allowed compound bows to be used, and we *just* got permission to use Lumenocks and mechanical broadheads (not that I'd use a mechanical). In fact, we are the last state to allow it. Still can't have any electronics: no lights, no thermals, no night vision, not even a GoPro camera.
 
Same with Idaho. I used to teach Hunter's Ed, and you need a separate Bowhunter Education class if you're going to go bowhunting. Plus, you cannot use any electronics on your bow here. When I moved up here, they finally allowed compound bows to be used, and we *just* got permission to use Lumenocks and mechanical broadheads (not that I'd use a mechanical). In fact, we are the last state to allow it. Still can't have any electronics: no lights, no thermals, no night vision, not even a GoPro camera.

No lights? Does this mean no pin lights for low light/visibility such as in the early morning / late evening hours or foggy mornings?

I can relate to not allowing flashlights on bows due to poachers; and mechanical broadheads bad rep of failing to properly open.

Having a flashlight on my stabilizer during our archery club 3D night shoots brought about a lot of jokes. When I stated how and why I mounted a flashlight to my stabilizer the jokes stopped and soon after more and more members added flashlights to their stabilizer.

A flashlight mounted on a bow is like having a third hand. I can carry my bow, turn on the flashlight to see where I'm walking, and my gun hand is free to draw my firearm (handgun) if/when it becomes necessary. ie on snakes, in bear country, coyotes while dragging a deer out, etc.

Inquisitive minds are asking:

Why no GoPro camera?
 
No lights? Does this mean no pin lights for low light/visibility such as in the early morning / late evening hours or foggy mornings?

I can relate to not allowing flashlights on bows due to poachers; and mechanical broadheads bad rep of failing to properly open.

Having a flashlight on my stabilizer during our archery club 3D night shoots brought about a lot of jokes. When I stated how and why I mounted a flashlight to my stabilizer the jokes stopped and soon after more and more members added flashlights to their stabilizer.

A flashlight mounted on a bow is like having a third hand. I can carry my bow, turn on the flashlight to see where I'm walking, and my gun hand is free to draw my firearm (handgun) if/when it becomes necessary. ie on snakes, in bear country, coyotes while dragging a deer out, etc.

Inquisitive minds are asking:

Why no GoPro camera?

Archery regs here state "any electronic or tritium-powered device attached to or incorporated into an arrow, bolt, crossbow, or bow; except lighted nocks are allowed. Hunters with a physical or visual disability may apply for a Reasonable Modification Permit". That means no lights, no cameras. Since GoPros are electronic, that falls into the "no electronics on your bow" category. As to why... the common complaint up here is that F&G uses a group of 20-40 hunters when deciding on what the hunting regs should be, and the bulk of these guys are very, very old school. There was a time when compound bows weren't legal. Lumenocks were made legal in '22ish. Maybe '23. Same with mechanicals. Myself, not a fan of mechanicals, the wife and I both had blade deployment failures while on a hog hunt.

When I taught Hunter's Ed, the F&G guys specifically told me to reiterate "no electronics means no electronics, even cameras".

Muzzleloading is similar. No electronics, no optics- only irons or peep sights. Have to use loose black power or Pyrodex. Have to use patched round ball or conicals. No 209 primers for ignition, has to be flint, percussion or musket caps and the ignition system has to be exposed to the elements. It's significant enough that CVA and a couple other muzzleloader manufacturers have a "northwest compliant" version of their firearms.
 
Now I have to ask:
Are these same restrictions for rifles/shotguns?
 
Now I have to ask:
Are these same restrictions for rifles/shotguns?
no electronics except for scopes that use tritium or battery powered reticles. For hunting,you can't even have a rangefinder attached to the rifle, it has to be totally separate.
 
I’ve hunted Idaho and didn’t know any of those regulations existed..

I knew Idaho was very restrictive on muzzleloaders… but didn’t realize they were thst restrictive on archery…
 
Leo Pulsar.jpg

I shot this leopard with my Pulsar as a pic.
For observing great.
For hunting different.
In Germany only for foxes and boars allowed at nighttime.
 

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