The Rules We Lived By

[Major Khan]

Major - You really ought to write a book. What stories you could tell.

Thank you so much , Badger Matt .
I actually am writing a book , which is scheduled to be released by the end of this year . It is to be titled , " Man Eater : Descent Into Depravity".
The grand nephew of a deceased colleague of mine , Karim Shikari ( of Darjeeling , West Bengal ) is actually writing a book about Karim's exploits as well ( Karim killed 73 man eating panthers and a royal Bengal tiger in the Tea Gardens of Darjeeling in West Bengal , prior to 1972 . The royal Bengal tiger actually mauled Karim and removed a good chunk of flesh from Karim's right thigh .) .The young man's book is scheduled to be released less than 2 months from now . It is titled , " 74 Man Eaters : The Untold Story Of Karim Shikari . " This book is scheduled to be released in May . I have also contributed to that book by providing a few photographs for that young man to use.

 

[Major Khan]

Awesome resource. Thank you for sharing

Thank you so much for enjoying it.

 

[Major Khan]

I recognize one or two of those locations from one of my art history courses when I was at college. There must have been a considerable population of leopards in some of those areas if hunters were allowed a maximum of two (and for those curious, $75 in 1967 was around $580 in 2020); of course, the "major leopard population" in Uttar Pradesh in 2015 was less than 200. I'd be curious to see the limits for them in other states.

And this is completely unrelated but have you ever been to the Mehrangarh fortress in Jodhpur, Major Khan?

Also I found this old photo online. Obviously that's a leopard, not a cheetah, but then I read that the word for "leopard" in Punjabi is the same root for "cheetah" in English.

You are quite a well read gentleman , Webley . I have infact been to Mehrangarh museum quite a few times. It was built by Rao Joda .
Please allow me to elaborate on the subject of " Leopards " in India .
There are 2 species of leopard in India :
> The 1st is what we Central Indian and South Indian shikarees refer to , as " Village Panther " . In West Bengal , this species is referred to , as " Spotted Leopard " . These creatures lurk around villages and human settlements. They steal goats and chickens , which they carry off , as food . They are quite brazen and they do not fear human beings . They weigh anywhere from 60 to 80 pounds and are quite small ( the largest of these species will be around 5 feet in length . )
They were classified as vermin back in those days .
> The 2nd is what we Central Indian and South Indian shikarees refer to , as " Forest Panther ". In West Bengal , these species are referred to , as " Hunting Leopard " . They are generally shy around human beings and lurk within dense forested areas. They live on cheetal deer , 4 horned buck , hog deer , Chinkara , Barasingha , Kakar deer , black buck and immature boars . These brutes are FAR larger and heavier that their village panther counterparts . Their skulls are also at least twice as thick as those of a village panther . These creatures can weigh anywhere from 140 pounds ( in a small female forest panther ) to 218 pounds ( in an extremely large fully grown male . ) and the largest size these creatures can reach is around 8 feet in length . These brutes were classified as game animals .
Also , always remember this Golden Rule about Indian panthers : The panthers living in hilly regions will always weigh less and be smaller in size , than those panthers which live in open or flat terrain .

The panther in the photograph is a village panther / spotted leopard . Village panthers are quite easy to kill as their skulls are quite thin . A 12 Bore shot gun, loaded with an AAA cartridge ( which holds 44 pellets to the cartridge . ) is capable of folding these village panthers nicely , provided that you shoot them in the head at extremely close distances ( normally , around 5 paces . ) where the shot pellets do not have the chance to spread more than a couple of inches apart.
Of course , if you ever dare try using such a weapon on a forest panther , then you are in store for a painful mauling ( along with the terrifying possibility of turning an ordinary forest panther in to a man eater ... should the brute manage to escape wounded . ) For a forest panther , the operator should always use at least a .30-06 Springfield calibre rifle , loaded with a 220 grain Winchester Silvertip soft point cartridge .

The Bengali and Hindi term for any panther / leopard , is " Chita Baagh " which is a rather generic term ( as it tends to categorize all panthers / leopards , as a single species ) .

 

[Bullhunter]

actually am writing a book , which is scheduled to be released by the end of this year . It is to be titled , " Man Eater : Descent Into Depravity".
The grand nephew of a deceased colleague of mine , Karim Shikari ( of Darjeeling , West Bengal ) is actually writing a book about Karim's exploits as well ( Karim killed 73 man eating panthers and a royal Bengal tiger in the Tea Gardens of Darjeeling in West Bengal , prior to 1972 . The royal Bengal tiger actually mauled Karim and removed a good chunk of flesh from Karim's right thigh .) .The young man's book is scheduled to be released less than 2 months from now . It is titled , " 74 Man Eaters : The Untold Story Of Karim Shikari . " This book is scheduled to be released in May . I have also contributed to that book by providing a few photographs for that young man to use.

I will buy one of each.
Please bring me on the list.
Thank you.
F.

 

[baxterb]

Thank you so much , Badger Matt .
I actually am writing a book , which is scheduled to be released by the end of this year . It is to be titled , " Man Eater : Descent Into Depravity".
The grand nephew of a deceased colleague of mine , Karim Shikari ( of Darjeeling , West Bengal ) is actually writing a book about Karim's exploits as well ( Karim killed 73 man eating panthers and a royal Bengal tiger in the Tea Gardens of Darjeeling in West Bengal , prior to 1972 . The royal Bengal tiger actually mauled Karim and removed a good chunk of flesh from Karim's right thigh .) .The young man's book is scheduled to be released less than 2 months from now . It is titled , " 74 Man Eaters : The Untold Story Of Karim Shikari . " This book is scheduled to be released in May . I have also contributed to that book by providing a few photographs for that young man to use.

Excellent, both sound interesting. Look forward to reading them.

 

[WebleyGreene455]

You are quite a well read gentleman , Webley . I have infact been to Mehrangarh museum quite a few times. It was built by Rao Joda .
Please allow me to elaborate on the subject of " Leopards " in India .
There are 2 species of leopard in India :
> The 1st is what we Central Indian and South Indian shikarees refer to , as " Village Panther " . In West Bengal , this species is referred to , as " Spotted Leopard " . These creatures lurk around villages and human settlements. They steal goats and chickens , which they carry off , as food . They are quite brazen and they do not fear human beings . They weigh anywhere from 60 to 80 pounds and are quite small ( the largest of these species will be around 5 feet in length . )
They were classified as vermin back in those days .
> The 2nd is what we Central Indian and South Indian shikarees refer to , as " Forest Panther ". In West Bengal , these species are referred to , as " Hunting Leopard " . They are generally shy around human beings and lurk within dense forested areas. They live on cheetal deer , 4 horned buck , hog deer , Chinkara , Barasingha , Kakar deer , black buck and immature boars . These brutes are FAR larger and heavier that their village panther counterparts . Their skulls are also at least twice as thick as those of a village panther . These creatures can weigh anywhere from 140 pounds ( in a small female forest panther ) to 218 pounds ( in an extremely large fully grown male . ) and the largest size these creatures can reach is around 8 feet in length . These brutes were classified as game animals .
Also , always remember this Golden Rule about Indian panthers : The panthers living in hilly regions will always weigh less and be smaller in size , than those panthers which live in open or flat terrain .

The panther in the photograph is a village panther / spotted leopard . Village panthers are quite easy to kill as their skulls are quite thin . A 12 Bore shot gun, loaded with an AAA cartridge ( which holds 44 pellets to the cartridge . ) is capable of folding these village panthers nicely , provided that you shoot them in the head at extremely close distances ( normally , around 5 paces . ) where the shot pellets do not have the chance to spread more than a couple of inches apart.
Of course , if you ever dare try using such a weapon on a forest panther , then you are in store for a painful mauling ( along with the terrifying possibility of turning an ordinary forest panther in to a man eater ... should the brute manage to escape wounded . ) For a forest panther , the operator should always use at least a .30-06 Springfield calibre rifle , loaded with a 220 grain Winchester Silvertip soft point cartridge .

The Bengali and Hindi term for any panther / leopard , is " Chita Baagh " which is a rather generic term ( as it tends to categorize all panthers / leopards , as a single species ) .

Well-read in some ways, woefully unlearned in many others, but always good at looking things up and researching. My professors taught me well. "Chita Baagh" might, based on my extremely small understanding of those languages, be translated literally as "adorned tiger". I like that.

In the USA, and down in Mexico and Central & South America, we have the animal known variously as the cougar/puma/mountain lion/panther. It seems that they're not unlike your leopards in that their sizes differ based on location, with smaller ones found closer to the Equator (where they have to compete with jaguars for prey) and larger ones gradually north and south. I'm sure that studies will have been done about leopard size vs habitat in India; I wonder if the "village panthers" became smaller due to human contact or if they were already a smaller (and therefore more opportunistic about stealing food) type.

What I find intriguing about that photo, though, is that the men have the leopard not to be hunted but to be a hunter. The Ancient Egyptians trained cheetahs, and possibly hyenas, as hunting animals, and leopards were kept captive by royals and priests in Africa, paraded on leashes as status symbols, but... Well a leopard isn't a bloodhound, is it? Dogs have been bred for their uses, while that leopard might well decide he's had quite enough of being collared and carried around in a cart and turn on his handlers. Makes me wonder how common that practice was, and what they intended to hunt for.

 

[Ridgewalker]

In the Western Hemisphere our cougars are very secretive and rarely attack humans. They mainly survive here in Colorado eating mule deer and elk.
When I lived a mile up Sunshine Canyon from Boulder, CO we had them on our property quite often taking deer. We watched one stalking a small group of does on our patio one evening.

A couple of years ago a friend of mine who lives in the middle of Boulder sent me a photo of one napping in his yard.

They cannot be hunted in most of the county because it is county parks, so there is a large number of them chasing the deer which are also protected.

By the way, “The Rules We Live By” as almost as complex as Colorado’s big game rules. Interesting comparing them. You almost need a lawyer now to keep you from accidentally breaking the law.

 

[WebleyGreene455]

In the Western Hemisphere our cougars are very secretive and rarely attack humans. They mainly survive here in Colorado eating mule deer and elk.
When I lived a mile up Sunshine Canyon from Boulder, CO we had them on our property quite often taking deer. We watched one stalking a small group of does on our patio one evening.

We have very few left here in Georgia, if any at all, and the Florida populations are nearer the bottom of that state. But that said, there's actually a small wildlife center in my hometown that has one or two and there are unconfirmed sightings elsewhere in the state, so perhaps one day there might be more. They used to range across the entire US.

 

[Major Khan]

I will buy one of each.
Please bring me on the list.
Thank you.
F.

It shall be my privilege to have such an accomplished fire arms write such as yourself , read my book , Bull Hunter.

 

[Major Khan]

In the Western Hemisphere our cougars are very secretive and rarely attack humans. They mainly survive here in Colorado eating mule deer and elk.
When I lived a mile up Sunshine Canyon from Boulder, CO we had them on our property quite often taking deer. We watched one stalking a small group of does on our patio one evening.

A couple of years ago a friend of mine who lives in the middle of Boulder sent me a photo of one napping in his yard.

They cannot be hunted in most of the county because it is county parks, so there is a large number of them chasing the deer which are also protected.

By the way, “The Rules We Live By” as almost as complex as Colorado’s big game rules. Interesting comparing them. You almost need a lawyer now to keep you from accidentally breaking the law.

Even though we live and hunt in 2 different corners of the earth... we are not really that different , are we , Ridgewalker ? The mind of a law maker is a complex 1 , indeed . More often than not , I often find myself questioning the rationale of these so called , “ law makers “ when they make their game laws .
By the way ... exactly how many species of deer do you gentlemen have , in America ? I am only familiar with your White Tail species .

 

[Ridgewalker]

By the way ... exactly how many species of deer do you gentlemen have , in America ?

Good question Poton! I’m not even sure how many, but I’ll start the list and others I’m sure will add to it.
Whitetail, Coues
Elk (3 species)
Moose (4 species)
Mule deer (at least 3 counting Sitka blacktail)
Caribou (5 species)

Help me out here AHers!
Here’s where you can research them:
https://www.boone-crockett.org/bgRecords/WorldRecords.asp?area=bgRecords

 

[WebleyGreene455]

Even though we live and hunt in 2 different corners of the earth... we are not really that different , are we , Ridgewalker ? The mind of a law maker is a complex 1 , indeed . More often than not , I often find myself questioning the rationale of these so called , “ law makers “ when they make their game laws .
By the way ... exactly how many species of deer do you gentlemen have , in America ? I am only familiar with your White Tail species .

Your question isn't too different from my own curiosity about leopards and cheetahs, so I'll do my best to chime in.

In the USA, when you say "deer", most people will take that to mean white-tail and the many subspecies, plus mule deer and black-tail. So three species of "deer", except that the white-tail came first, the black-tail evolved from white-tail over time as they moved across the continent, and mule deer are genetically a subspecies of black-tail.

Then you have the elk, moose, and caribou, which are members of the deer family but not called "deer" (and to make things worse, these animals sometimes have different names depending on if you're on the American or Eurasian continents). As @Ridgewalker said there are several subspecies of each.

The Sitka Ridgewalker mentions is actually a subspecies of the black-tail, and the Coues are a subspecies of white-tail, but those and many others are almost always referred to by their own name.

So depending on how broad your criteria are, there are 3 species of "deer", 6 distinct members of the Deer Family,and 58 overall species and subspecies. And from a trophy-hunting point of view, there are 80 trophy categories. And this doesn't include the non-native species brought to North America.

 

[Major Khan]

Your question isn't too different from my own curiosity about leopards and cheetahs, so I'll do my best to chime in.

In the USA, when you say "deer", most people will take that to mean white-tail and the many subspecies, plus mule deer and black-tail. So three species of "deer", except that the white-tail came first, the black-tail evolved from white-tail over time as they moved across the continent, and mule deer are genetically a subspecies of black-tail.

Then you have the elk, moose, and caribou, which are members of the deer family but not called "deer" (and to make things worse, these animals sometimes have different names depending on if you're on the American or Eurasian continents). As @Ridgewalker said there are several subspecies of each.

The Sitka Ridgewalker mentions is actually a subspecies of the black-tail, and the Coues are a subspecies of white-tail, but those and many others are almost always referred to by their own name.

So depending on how broad your criteria are, there are 3 species of "deer", 6 distinct members of the Deer Family,and 58 overall species and subspecies. And from a trophy-hunting point of view, there are 80 trophy categories. And this doesn't include the non-native species brought to North America.

Thank you so much , Webley .
I learnt something new and educational , today from you . In Bangladesh , we have 4 species of deer :
> Sambhur deer
> Cheetal deer
> Barking deer ( known as " Kakar " )
> Mouse deer
Back when I used to live in India , we also had 3 other species :
> Swamp deer ( known as " Barasingha " )
> Hog deer
> 4 horned buck ( although shikarees from West Bengal consider it to be a species of antelope , rather than a deer )

 

[WebleyGreene455]

Thank you so much , Webley .
I learnt something new and educational , today from you . In Bangladesh , we have 4 species of deer :
> Sambhur deer
> Cheetal deer
> Barking deer ( known as " Kakar " )
> Mouse deer
Back when I used to live in India , we also had 3 other species :
> Swamp deer ( known as " Barasingha " )
> Hog deer
> 4 horned buck ( although shikarees from West Bengal consider it to be a species of antelope , rather than a deer )

As a bonus, I'll mention that Chital were given as a gift to the king of Hawai'i in the 1860s, before it was a US state, and were initially located on the island of Moloka'i before also being put on the island of Lana'i. In the 1950s a population of Chital were moved to the island of Maui and they've been found (illegally transported) on the Big Island of Hawai'i too. They were also introduced to Texas in the 1930s and to other parts of the southeastern US.

Unfortunately, since they have no natural predators on the Hawaiian Islands, their populations are increasing fairly steadily and they're causing environmental damage.

 

[Major Khan]

As a bonus, I'll mention that Chital were given as a gift to the king of Hawai'i in the 1860s, before it was a US state, and were initially located on the island of Moloka'i before also being put on the island of Lana'i. In the 1950s a population of Chital were moved to the island of Maui and they've been found (illegally transported) on the Big Island of Hawai'i too. They were also introduced to Texas in the 1930s and to other parts of the southeastern US.

Unfortunately, since they have no natural predators on the Hawaiian Islands, their populations are increasing fairly steadily and they're causing environmental damage.

Cheetal deer make for exceptionally fine eating , Webley . I do hope that you American gentlemen have the privilege to hunt them some day in the near future . I took this magnificent specimen last year in Nizoom Deap with a perfect broad side double lung shot , from my " Old Belgian " at 35 yards , by using a hand loaded spherical ball cartridge . I even shot 1 on the 7th of March , this year . However , the skin of the specimen from last year is slightly more beautiful .

 

[WebleyGreene455]

Cheetal deer make for exceptionally fine eating , Webley . I do hope that you American gentlemen have the privilege to hunt them some day in the near future . I took this magnificent specimen last year in Nizoom Deap with a perfect broad side double lung shot , from my " Old Belgian " at 35 yards , by using a hand loaded spherical ball cartridge . I even shot 1 on the 7th of March , this year . However , the skin of the specimen from last year is slightly more beautiful .
View attachment 336143

That is indeed a very handsome skin. White-tails only look like that when they're still very young.

 

[WebleyGreene455]

@Major Khan I mentioned cougars and how their sizes differed according to territory not unlike the leopards you described in India. This photo popped up as I was looking at the site's front page a moment ago. Based on the appearance of the brush behind the hunter (a user name of BETO, not sure where he's at), it's hard to tell but I'd say he's probably somewhere in Florida if he's in the USA. My home state of Georgia has some bush very like that, which I'm told bears some similarities to that of parts of the Indian subcontinent and Indochinese Peninsula. Here are some photos of an island off the coast about 100-odd miles south of my hometown: https://www.jwelchphoto.com/solo-backpacking-bliss-in-winter Is that an accurate comparison?