The Law of Diminishing Return

[Hogpatrol]

Back on task, with all my rifles being custom, I've been asked whether its' worth it. I tell them if you have to pay someone to do the work, you'll spend thousands more to get a 1/4 to 1/2 moa better accuracy over today's factory offerings, sometimes even with factory ammo. If shooting less than 500m in hunting scenarios, spend that money on glass. As far as glass, the extra money will get you more durability and a half hour to the shooting day.

 

[Flbt]

Back on task, with all my rifles being custom, I've been asked whether its' worth it. I tell them if you have to pay someone to do the work, you'll spend thousands more to get a 1/4 to 1/2 moa better accuracy over today's factory offerings, sometimes even with factory ammo. If shooting less than 500m in hunting scenarios, spend that money on glass. As far as glass, the extra money will get you more durability and a half hour to the shooting day.

What good is the 1/2 hr if it’s before or after legal shooing time?
I have set after shooting time to check a few buris scopes I was able to make out the squares on the hog trap 30 min past legal time and the trap was 200 yds from me.
What is another 30 min going to do?

 

[3chunter]

I now just use buy once, cry once philosophy with many things like boots, clothing, guns, scopes/optics.
But I research a lot before I buy things to make sure it does what I want/need. I am not sure my $5000 elk/mulie rifle set up is much better than my $2000 deer rifle set up. But probably my next rifle set up will be closer to the $5-6 k cost because useful features are extra such as red dot illumination on scope, or having less drag by having fluted bolt. Usually you get what you pay for on many things.
I will say I was immediately confident when my africa outfitter had a leupold scope on the rifle I borrowed. But also when I see a Swarovski I also am confident. Now if he had a Simmons on it, I would have not been very confident.

 

[Dirtdart]

I don't know bro, I think your neurosurgeon is probably using some pretty good stuff. LOL

Very likely his "glass" has a Zeiss or Leica label.

 

[Huvius]

Very likely his "glass" has a Zeiss or Leica label.

Exactly.
The OR I’m in now has two Zeiss Pentero 800s, two Leica OS4s and one OS3.
That was my point. Most ORs have only one of the latest microscopes (maybe not even one of the latest) and if it’s already in a room, you’re stuck with whatever is left.
Good thing all the latest features are largely bells and whistles and for the most part you just need good optics and light.
Sort of like rifle scopes in that regard.

 

[HookMeUpII]

In terms of scopes, I have zero complaints about Leupold scopes. There are folks who don't like the CDS dial retention and some have complaints about the battery covers for some reason. Neither bother me at all. They're tough as nails and I think the VX5HD for the price point is unbeatable. The glass is very clear, maybe not as much as German/Euro optics, but clear enough for me.

I have two VX5HD's in 3-15x44mm on 300WM's and a Patrol 6HD on a 375HH.

The Patrol I bought from @EuroOptic for sub-$900 and I thought that was as good a deal as you can get.

 

[DG870]

I once looked into shooting benchrest. I asked what I’d need to get started. He said “it like car racing - the more you spend the faster you can go - you just have to decide how fast you want to go.”

like the law of diminishing returns says you can have pretty good stuff without breaking the bank to pay for the few degrees of improvement you get from the top end. Spend enough to stay away from the junk and do your research to get something good.

 

[Nevada Mike]

We used to say in the software business..."the last 10% takes just long and costs just as much as the first 90%." This is true in many things.

 

[UpNorthMI]

I started out hunting and culling deer in the Scottish hills with lower cost optics. The conditions were cold, misty, wet awful weather with the need for long distance deer spotting and sometimes long distance shooting. Most shooting opportunities were at first and very last light. The terrain was very rugged, rocky and steep, hard on the rifle and the scope. These are the most challenging factors for any optics.

I soon learned the difference that quality optics (Zeiss / Swaro) offered, yes they were expensive but they were also very serious game changers, this was over 40 years ago and the cost of quality optics was huge to me as a very young man.

40 years later I have a large and very expensive collection of Swarovski scopes, binos etc. I've never had an issue with any of these optics, never had to re zero scopes even after many overseas airline trips etc. I worked hard and enjoyed spending my money on quality optics. Every time I pick up one of my rifles on a hunting trip, I never have any concerns about my scope, I know I'm likely getting the best image possible. I think it's about what you want in life and what's important to you.

I upgraded my son's scope this year with the latest 34mm tube Z8i 1-8 x 24, to watch him shoot his Blaser R8 in .375 H&H to bag 16 buffalo and many other animals in Australia with such confidence was absolutely priceless. At 22 years old, I'm guessing he will get a good 40+ years use from that scope just as I have done with many of my Swarovski scopes.

Yes you can buy much cheaper optics and yes you are not always hunting in such harsh or challenging conditions. Everyone has to make a choice that works for themselves. For me quality optics are more important than your actual rifle.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Hunt deer in the September/October Pennsy woods with leaves still on the trees and you'll need that 15 minutes or so a good scope will give you in that last half hour, especially identifying whether that buck is legal.

What good is the 1/2 hr if it’s before or after legal shooing time?
I have set after shooting time to check a few buris scopes I was able to make out the squares on the hog trap 30 min past legal time and the trap was 200 yds from me.
What is another 30 min going to do?

 

[Flbt]

Hunt deer in the September/October Pennsy woods with leaves still on the trees and you'll need that 15 minutes or so a good scope will give you in that last half hour, especially identifying whether that buck is legal.

I wonder if that’s thicker than fl swamps?
The buris still gets you past 30 min after sundown that’s our legal limit.

 

[mark-hunter]

What is another 30 min going to do?

You will know when you need it.
I had few animals taken, in last seconds of barely visible light conditions.

In Africa... and Africa costs, and Africa has limited time on the ground, in 2022 I hunted eland.
For 7 days, without success till last day.
After 7 days, you fly home, you cannot try again on day no 8. (maybe only next year)

And on a last day, after the sun was just below the horizon, I had a moment to shoot eland, running away.
I got him. (report is available on the forum)
There was still some light, but the same chance could have opened 10 minutes later with totally diminishing daylight.
Swaro Z6.

When you hunt on high costs, and on limited time frame in faraway land, you want to make every second of a hunt count. You need every second to give you a possible opportunity.

On below photo, above eland is moon, not the sun

 

[Flbt]

You will know when you need it.
I had few animals taken, in last seconds of barely visible light conditions.

In Africa... and Africa costs, and Africa has limited time on the ground, in 2022 I hunted eland.
For 7 days, without success till last day.
After 7 days, you fly home, you cannot try again on day no 8. (maybe only next year)

And on a last day, after the sun was just below the horizon, I had a moment to shoot eland, running away.
I got him. (report is available on the forum)
There was still some light, but the same chance could have opened 10 minutes later with totally diminishing daylight.
Swaro Z6.

When you hunt on high costs, and on limited time frame in faraway land, you want to make every second of a hunt count. You need every second to give you a possible opportunity.

Ok I can see that.
But state side in a state that says you are legal 30 min before and 30 min after sun up or down and the state post every day sun up and down time. If you can see all the way to the end of that 30 min time.
Adding 30 more minutes does nothing.
If your not willing to become a poacher instead of a hunter

 

[mark-hunter]

Ok I can see that.
But state side in a state that says you are legal 30 min before and 30 min after sun up or down and the state post every day sun up and down time. If you can see all the way to the end of that 30 min time.
Adding 30 more minutes does nothing.
If your not willing to become a poacher instead of a hunter

Yes, correct.
But you are limited to that state only. Local guy.
You want to travel the world, and be international hunter? Then different things apply.

At my place, same as the rest of EU, legal hunting is 2 hours before sun rise, and two hours after the sunset. I need a good scope.

 

[Flbt]

Yes, correct.
But you are limited to that state only. Local guy.
You want to travel the world, and be international hunter? Then different things apply.

At my place, same as the rest of EU, legal hunting is 2 hours before sun rise, and two hours after the sunset. I need a good scope.

I can see the extra money being worth it in those situations.
And really would look at that as basics if you need to see 2 hr before and 2 hr after.
The 2 states I have spent most of my time in the 30min is the standard.

Unless it’s hogs and coyotes then a light is fine.

 

[Flbt]

I can see the extra money being worth it in those situations.
And really would look at that as basics if you need to see 2 hr before and 2 hr after.
The 2 states I have spent most of my time in the 30min is the standard.

Unless it’s hogs and coyotes then a light is fine.

That was supposed to be 3 states

 

[Noah_McCoy]

Few things teach lessons better than things that hurt and things that cost you money. I learned my lesson using cheap optics my first time black bear hunting in northern Maine. I had to pass on a really nice boar because I just could not find the crosshairs in the scope during that last 5 minutes of shooting time. After that I went home and got my hands on some good glass, wouldn’t you know it I ended up shooting a bear in broad daylight.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

You will know when you need it.
I had few animals taken, in last seconds of barely visible light conditions.

In Africa... and Africa costs, and Africa has limited time on the ground, in 2022 I hunted eland.
For 7 days, without success till last day.
After 7 days, you fly home, you cannot try again on day no 8. (maybe only next year)

And on a last day, after the sun was just below the horizon, I had a moment to shoot eland, running away.
I got him. (report is available on the forum)
There was still some light, but the same chance could have opened 10 minutes later with totally diminishing daylight.
Swaro Z6.

When you hunt on high costs, and on limited time frame in faraway land, you want to make every second of a hunt count. You need every second to give you a possible opportunity.

On below photo, above eland is moon, not the sun
View attachment 700294

I'm sure I could see that animal just fine at that time of day with my (now retired but still functioning) fifty year-old Weaver K3 3x. You didn't even need a flash for the photo.

I wonder what's the probability of shooting an animal in the last minutes of shooting light and losing it, especially long shots? I saw my brother lose a deer that way ... and not the first time. Over the years I did have to do followup on a couple of animals shot at twilight but there was always snow for tracking and a flashlight in my pack. They were finished in the dark. Did NOT wait for morning.

A big animal like moose or eland gets wounded and dies in the night it will be birdfood by morning. I can't live with that. My PHs call it quits well before dusk and they get no objection from me. No snow where I hunt in RSA.

 

[mark-hunter]

You didn't even need a flash for the photo.

Quality camera. I was surprised later when I saw the photo. Around was much more darker

Year 2024 (I need to make that report yet), I went for Buffalo hunt. When buffalo was in the salt, I had few more days left.
There was a leopard around, and we knew it comes to the local waterhole.
I was waiting for that leopard (having nothing better to do. .)

Entire day we spent in the blind.
I denied myself smoking all day long, and was pissing in a coca cola bottle, to prevent smell around the blind.
The sun fell down.
We were about to move to car in a few minutes. My guide suggested we can go.
Before going from blind, I told myself I can reward myself now with a cigarette.

The dark was coming soon.
I lit the cigarette.
When cigarette is finished, I told my guide, we can go, as I considered the light conditions as non shootable by the that moment, as well.

Now, a minute or two later, when I was at the half of cigarette, he kicked me in the ribs, and whispered: "Leopard!"
Where?
There, on the left on the waterhole!
First, i took Leica geovid bino, and I could see the cat. (with naked eyes, forget about that)
From previous observations I knew it was 147 meters distance.
I took the rifle up, safety off, put on power 6x, and aimed in that direction.
The cat I saw, was there drinking water!
I couldnt beleive my luck!

I aimed at the shoulder, but visibility was running out fast, and as the first moments of aiming passed, I was not able to recognize the spots, just a shilouette, in its entire size, and legs, light colored against the much darker bush.

I still could shoot. But I was waiting for confirmation.
Seconds pass.
I asked: "Shoot, or not shoot?"
silence.
"shoot, or not shoot?"

"Not shoot. Female".
Safety on. I still look through the scope, first time seeing leopard in the wild, and grasping every moment of it.
Less then minute later, it was so dark, I was not able to see anything, neither through swarovski on the rifle, nor Leica bino.

If that was a tom cat, this story would be different.
With lower quality glass, the story would probably be the same. Of this I am 100 percent certain.

 

[wesheltonj]

If you don't care about twilight shooting, it does not matter on the scope. That last few minutes, those patented coatings on Zeiss & Leica will make a a huge different and worth the cost. That said, when I was hunting in Croatia even with my Leica Scope I could not see as late as they hunt. That's where thermal/night vision kicks in.