Terminal performance with shedding monos

[Altitude sickness]

Those are big bodied SC deer

 

[Fordy]

Gday Micheal458

Grab some popcorn as this is going to get long lol

You’ve touched on a couple things that were instrumental on myself clearing my head & still have someways to go till I’m happy but I fear time is going to beat me but oh well “such is life “ ( it used to be a great Aussie saying with history behind it & today is somewhat getting lost sadly)

Some of what you’ve touched on should be discussed a little more but it’s going to derail this thread which I’m fine with but really it deserves it’s own thread as so much in this & one I’m seeing multiple people not show the full picture ( not that I’m right but I’ll show where a bit better system is possible if I know of it or try & find one where a outcome can be potentially improved ) so on below if you wouldn’t mind taking the time it would be appreciated

Sometime in 2012 CEB made a 100 gr ESP Raptor. Enhanced System Projectile. This could be used as a Raptor on one end, Solid on the other.

This is extremely important to understand that these types of projectiles offer some unique advantages/abilities

Here’s where i first learned to clear my head once again

Basically we ran out of solids on a cull & were in pretty thick stick/limbs growth terrain that had proven over many hundreds of critters that a good solid was the better pill to use as the deflection & more importantly the killing rate was better with the solid than the pills that we used in more open country ( contrary to what some believe but facts are facts )
So we turned the raptor backwards the same as the likes of the taipan pills we were also using which showed the raptor superior ability to resist the amount of deflection & on impacting the critter the also very important terminal path was considerably straighter & one that still had the odd sideways impact of a pill but man it was less now the taipan was better also but nowhere near the level of that backwards raptor
Which i still don’t have the full picture of why but I’m learning that nose profile & alloy makes a huge difference in these backwards solids & done some pretty cool testing on a few theories that are showing promise but overall regardless of pill it’s better not to impacts sticks /limbs prior to impacting a critter but Murphy seems to rear his ugly head & always will I think but I just like the idea of holding him @ arms length longer

The Nose Projection for the solid end is way too short, and not as effective as it could be.

Could you please explain this or direct me to a thread that has more information on it please

Used as a Tipped Raptor, it was wicked in 308 Winchester. I loaded this for my deer hunting, bear and hog hunting pals for a few years, with incredible success, bang flop DRT success. I liked the 130 ESP because the Nose Projection on the solid end was longer, and indeed made an effective solid, and of course the Raptor end worked as normal.

In late 2015 I had Dan make the 100 Flat Base Raptor, that we have today. I started loading it in all my .308 caliber rifles, 30/30 without the Talon Tip, 300 Blackout, 7.62X40, 308 Winchester, and 300 Winchester. In the 300 BLK and 7.62X40 the 100 Raptor at 2550 fps to 2800 fps is a fantastic bullet in those two cartridges for Younger Hunters,

This type of system has huge merit & not only in the younger hunters it’s also useful for hunters that are getting close to their personal recoil limit of a particular chambering as can drop weight & still get reliable outcomes & many cases better results if they can increase the speed & more importantly the impact speed same can occur with bonded but the drop in weight isn’t as great hence the noticeable difference isn’t as great

we have had many success stories with kids in the field for deer, hogs and even black bear. I have loaded since 2015 for my local deer/pig and bear pals in their 308 Winchesters. Over the years they have taken collectively a few hundred deer +....... I have yet to hear of any deer being lost, and the longest run I have heard so far has been 5 steps. Again, most all reports coming back are DRT.

That’s extremely good results & will get a few of the 100 raptors to see how they stack up on our critters not denying your results i just haven’t seen that level previously on small caliber raptors like that ( I’ve got some drone videos that are pretty cool but I don’t know how to put videos up here so I’ll get a mate to do them & I’ll post the link ) & why I’m favouring the petals following the shank on these as once angles come into play especially up the left side the ones that get the petals through kill quicker from my experience but man alive that’s hard to get a company to do as if they don’t get it right you can be in for a hell of a time tracking so buyer beware imo

Now that is somewhat how we will take the critter as a hard quarter away is not out of the question & like every other brand you find sweetspot in weights of killing efficiency just like the 475 50 cal vrs the 530 50 cal raptors as the 475 is just a better killing pill overall imo & it doesn’t shear the petals off as clean on meplat as the 475 ( more to come on this later ) on the couple I’ve found but that would need to be proven more as a couple isn’t a good sample but over a dozen bovine with the 530 gr pill it just didn’t work as well ( it still killed ok & no issues but I don’t want just kills I want the better ones that drop the critter quicker on average under the scenarios I hunt ) once again you may have a different opinion which is fine & one I’d like to know if you don’t mind
Anyway
here’s what I’ve measured off my hunting property over the years with various pills
Since it was purchased out of my nanas estate ( deer on my hunting property is all these tables are but other critters are used now & then for testing but i don’t like this as a lot of them are head shot & I get in trouble with the ethics of head shooting but I hope not here I also shoot or should say used to shoot a lot of other properties but my body is saying no as much as my mind is wanting to know , it’s what it is so becoming more @ more selective on what I can do yes “such is life” )
Don’t know what occurred but all got basically wiped so I had to mostly start again

anyway moving on & overall under penetration has been the greatest indicator of a long run & higher chance of a lost critter ( a pencil pill is no good either)
Yes I like penertration & I like solids also although those around here seem a taboo subject lol )

Can’t say or actually think I’ve lost a critter with a raptor ( pretty sure I haven’t but a lot of other brands I have ) but I shattered a shank once & I’ll have to see if I can find it in my stashes , I done the same with apex ( mark fixed his alloy issue in the 1st generation & since not shattered a apex @ over 4k impacts in bovines being the hardest test I’ve preformed to find out ) & a few others
Shattered is probably a bad word in raptors case & a couple others & more fitting is probably tore the pill from the shedding of the petals that broke down from the normal path line & you see these in various brands

Looks like the likes of this occurring on a small scale on the right shank

But this one below was worse & that’s from a wet news paper testing I was doing before I headed to moz with my mate on a prototype type 375 pill that only turned up 2 days before we were to leave so no critter testing was done & im not usually a wet news paper testing guy as I’m let’s just go put it in the real thing to find out but man alive that’s not cool for my mates once in a lifetime trip so tested in news paper against the previous best 375 pills I had found so chucked a 500 Jeffery 475 raptor in the unused news paper to see how it preformed for curiosity purposes which Leeds me now to think it can be easily fixed as you see in the above pic the little relief groove could go a touch deeper & the shedding of the petals should be more uniform & a better flatter meplat will occur imo unless you’ve done that work already & guess I need to get more news papers lol if not as bovine autopsies are getting beyond me
That pill in the wet newspaper turned & tumbled last 5 inches & to me that goes back to true solids again & importance of the flat meplat? Fix that meplat & the straightline should come back

I’ll find out as still got plenty of those 475 raptors left & overall I can’t stop them as the 2 shanks above against the unforced one were found in ground behind bovines one on this 1000lb plus cow that went from knuckle to out the udder so the turn in the news paper gives some merit to lack of penertration in it vrs the meplat of the full penertration of that bovine ?? Your thoughts would be appreciated again

No, the "Blades" on smaller caliber Raptors normally rip and tear internal organs and get caught up there and do not make it to the far side. The Main bullet exits the far side on all broad side or even severe angled shots. Even on the bears and hogs that were shot the center main bullet, or sometimes called the Blunt Trauma Bullet exits far side.

so your seeing a compression of the organs due to the cavitation of the pill but due to the small exit hole the compression can’t escape through the smaller exit hole ?



on blades is that with only the brass raptors as they are more like little slicing machines compared to the copper raptors

My oldest Son Matthew shot this deer on our farm with his Winchester M70 308 Winchester, and of course the 100 Flat Base Raptor. DRT.......

Couple of years previously he shot this deer on our farm with a 223 loaded with 50 Raptors. The deer went 20 yards before piling up stone cold..........

Nice deer & good looking son & I’ll leave my stirring side out as I am still working out who I can have a joke with or better off leaving it alone

Thanks for taking the time reading my post if you made it that far & hope it wasn’t to messed up & apologies in advance on my writing skills
Cheers

 

[IvW]

I am no expert on these modern types of bullets.
I have found that controlled expansion bullets that open up to two or two and a half times bullet diameter and retain 90% plus of their original weight work perfectly especially on dg.
For solids I prefer brass meplat solids for best straight line penetration.
I have not had the need to try and find better performance yet.

 

[SRvet]

Cavitation is the most severe damage a bullet causes, and it has been proven impossible, due to pressure and the destruction of the blood supply, to estimate the degree of destruction at distance in the tissue. The bullet fragments can only cause very localized additional damage like secondary projectiles, like bone fragments or similar.

Bullet fragmentation, particularly where multiple small fragments are produced render the soft tissues much more susceptible to permanent damage following temporary cavitation. This was shown by Dr Martin Fackler in the 80s.

Fackler ML, Surinchak JS, Malinowski JA, Bowen RE. Bullet fragmentation: a major cause of tissue disruption. J Trauma. 1984 Jan;24(1):35-9. PMID: 6694223.

I am just back from a buffalo hunt and used the Raptor/Safari solid combo. What struck me was that my first shot hit the top of the humerus, fractured it and the bullet still continued through the chest, fragmented and the base of the bullet exited the body. To me this showed quite incredible penetration which whilst impressive also concerned me slightly due to the risk of causing “collateral damage” in a herd situation. The safari solids were incredible, hit hard and I was very happy with what they did.
As such I plan to also develop a load with controlled expansion bullets that penetrate less than the Raptors for initial shots in herds. I’m thinking the 450g TSX would be a good shout to match with the 450g Safari Raptor in the 458 Lott.

 

[1dirthawker]

great information, and yes, i think you are on the right track. thanks for sharing.

 

[michael458]

Could you please explain this or direct me to a thread that has more information on it please

Concerning "Nose Projection" is the length of the nose above the top band of the solid portion. Nose Projection is the last known Factor discovered of the 8 Known factors of Solid Terminal Penetration.

It ranks as #4 on the list;

#4 Nose Projection
Nose Projection above the top bands was the last factor discovered. There may be more factors, but currently they remain undiscovered at this point in time.... We found that nose projection above the top of the bands of current CNC monolithic bullets is very important to depth of penetration. Some bullets designed to work through lever actin riflers require a SHORT NOSE PROJECTION in front of the bands so that they can be loaded deep enough to work through the actions of these guns... Nose Projection of these same bullets for bolt guns, single shots, and double rifles are longer, from .600 to .700 in front of the top band. The LONGER NOSE PROJECTION solids will penetrate on average 25% deeper than the shorter nose projection. Now, these bullets already have all the other required factors for stability, nose profile, construction and radius, so it is ONLY DEPTH Of penetration that is effected with properly designed bullets.

Pay attention to the photo below of the loaded 100 ESP Raptor/Solid 30/30 as a solid and you can see a very short Nose Projection above the top band.

Now compare the Nose Projection of the 130 ESP Raptor loaded as a solid in 30/30...........

The ESP's can be somewhat of a challenge at times depending on the bullet and the cartridge. In the case of the .308 caliber 100 ESP vs the 100 Flat Base Raptor, I much prefer the 100 Flat Base version for general purpose use.

 

[grand veneur]

Bullet fragmentation, particularly where multiple small fragments are produced render the soft tissues much more susceptible to permanent damage following temporary cavitation. This was shown by Dr Martin Fackler in the 80s.

Fackler ML, Surinchak JS, Malinowski JA, Bowen RE. Bullet fragmentation: a major cause of tissue disruption. J Trauma. 1984 Jan;24(1):35-9. PMID: 6694223.

I am just back from a buffalo hunt and used the Raptor/Safari solid combo. What struck me was that my first shot hit the top of the humerus, fractured it and the bullet still continued through the chest, fragmented and the base of the bullet exited the body. To me this showed quite incredible penetration which whilst impressive also concerned me slightly due to the risk of causing “collateral damage” in a herd situation. The safari solids were incredible, hit hard and I was very happy with what they did.
As such I plan to also develop a load with controlled expansion bullets that penetrate less than the Raptors for initial shots in herds. I’m thinking the 450g TSX would be a good shout to match with the 450g Safari Raptor in the 458 Lott.

I don't deny that the fragments contribute to the damage.That is what I meant by additional damage.

The use of such bullets is controversial in hunting circles and has more opponents than supporters in my countries. Apart from the fragment, which many people don't like in the meat, the weight loss of such bullets is particularly criticized, with right because it can have a noticeable influence on the depth of penetration. I don't like such bullets, nevertheless whatever the case, everyone should use what they want, but I would like to point out again that the number of buffalo each of us shot in his life is not relevant enough to claim from personal experience that one type of bullet is absolutely superior to another.

 

[michael458]

Shattered is probably a bad word in raptors case & a couple others & more fitting is probably tore the pill from the shedding of the petals that broke down from the normal path line & you see these in various brands

a 500 Jeffery 475 raptor in the unused news paper to see how it preformed for curiosity purposes which Leeds me now to think it can be easily fixed as you see in the above pic the little relief groove could go a touch deeper & the shedding of the petals should be more uniform & a better flatter meplat will occur imo unless you’ve done that work already & guess I need to get more news papers lol if not as bovine autopsies are getting beyond me

It took a bit before I think I realized what you were saying. The broken beer bottle edges of the remaining bullet is typical of ALL Raptors, this is not a problem, or any bit of a concern. I have never seen the remaining bullet drive off course or tumble after Blade Shear, either in test medium or animal tissue the remaining bullet drives straight. Now, I have to take that statement back one step when it comes to .416 caliber and twist rates of 1;14 or slower, at the end of penetration the 416s can turn in the last few inches of penetration, but that seems to be the only caliber I have seen this. At 1;12 everything remains dead straight in .416.

The 475 .510 caliber Raptor was designed in 2012 by my test partner and best friend Sam Rose for his double rifles in 500 NE. He had been using the 570/535s up until then. He saw the incredible success I was having with my .500 caliber rifles, in particular the 500 MDM where I was running the 500 gr #13 Solids matched with the 450 Raptors in .500 caliber. I was running the 450 Raptors at 2450-2500 fps in my 500 MDM and it was turning buffalo inside out. Sam decided to do the same in 500 NE with the 510 Solid and 475 Raptors. The little groove you see on the nose is not a relief groove in any way, Sam had the groove put in on the 510 Solids and the 475 Raptors so he could feel the difference in loads when using both 570/535s and the 510/475s, he could tell the difference simply by feel when reloading. That is all it is. That Groove has remained in the program.

We did the load data and pressure work with the 500 NE and the 510/475s and were able to run both in 500 NE above 2300 fps without exceeding max safe pressures in double rifles.

The 475 Raptors proved to be extremely effective on buffalo, most all Aussie buffalo stood and quivered after taking the hit and most were DRT. I actually never recall seeing any run after the initial hit with the 475s at over 2300 fps, Sam shot 20 or more buffalo with this bullet. Some were shot with the 535s at lower velocity, and there was a huge difference in animal reactions to taking the bullets. While the 535s were deadly, the 475s at 2300 fps were devastating.

Since then the 510 Solids have become very popular and used a lot for elephant and other heavies. The 475 Raptor has become The Bullet for buffalo.........in .510 caliber.

The broken beer bottle top after shear is normal in every single Raptor ever done from .224 caliber to .620 caliber.

In the case of the Raptors, they are considered "Blades" and not "Petals"....... Petals are more related to Copper Gen 1 CNC Trauma Inflicting bullets, where the "Petals" peel back and break off unevenly during terminal Penetration, they do not all Shear or peel back at the same instance.

With a Raptor, the "Blades" are designed to Shear at the same time and point in terminal penetration. These "Blades" slice and dice their way through tissue and penetrate by cutting and slicing, not by pushing their way through. Big bore Blades come in at 6-9 grains in weight on average, they do not have enough weight or mass to penetrate as deep as they do. They slice and dice. In the wet print test medium I test with here, it is common for big bore blades, .458 to .510 caliber to penetrate as deep as 6-8 inches in this test medium!

Now to compare this, a typical .357 caliber bullet fired in 38 Special penetrates 3-4 inches. A typical 45 ACP 185-230 conventional expanding bullet penetrates to 4-5 inches in this same medium.

So how does a 6-9 gr Blade Penetrate to 6-8 inches? Slice and dice. Blades, not petals.

 

[michael458]

The use of such bullets is controversial in hunting circles and has more opponents than supporters in my countries

And of all the "opponents", how many have used this type bullet in the field? How many have witnessed first hand results?

the weight loss of such bullets is particularly criticized, with right because it can have a noticeable influence on the depth of penetration.

You are wrong on this point, simply because you do not understand how a Raptor actually works. And you are still trapped in the "Conventional Thinking Box". You rightfully have been taught that when a conventional bullet starts to break off and loose weight, penetration decreases and in some cases severely threatened. This is true, in the case of conventional expanding bullets. However, this does not hold water with these bullets, Generation 1 and Generation II CNC machined copper/brass bullets. In the beginning we called them "Non-Cons" for "Non Conventional", they did not adhere to Conventional Rules. Once the blades shear, the remaining bullet is a blunt trauma full caliber solid, that penetrates much deeper than any conventional expanding bullet is capable of doing. As an example take a .458 caliber 500 gr Swift A Frame compared to a .458 420 Safari Raptor

The above example is the RULE, and not an exception across the board in all calibers from .224 to .620 caliber. This holds even more so in animal tissue which is far less dense than the test medium.

but I would like to point out again that the number of buffalo each of us shot in his life is not relevant enough to claim from personal experience that one type of bullet is absolutely superior to another.

True for the most part. I have only shot 140-150 buffalo total including Aussie and Cape buffalo, and somewhere around 100 of those with Raptors from 9.3 caliber (10 or so only) to .500 caliber and have seen at least a 100 shot by others in my party. I can say from what little experience I have that Raptors are the most wicked tissue destroying, trauma inflicting bullet I have ever witnessed in the field. In addtion I have shot well over 150 plains game from Impala to Eland with various Raptors and the same can be said on that front as well. Until you use or witness, its hard to understand. I have used Barnes TSX, Swift A Frames, Woodlieghs, Noslers, and more that I can't think of currently......

 

[Altitude sickness]

There are several quality bullet designs and brands. It’s important to have confidence in your bullet and rifle. And important to use what you have experience and confidence with.

 

[grand veneur]

And of all the "opponents", how many have used this type bullet in the field? How many have witnessed first hand results?


You are wrong on this point, simply because you do not understand how a Raptor actually works. And you are still trapped in the "Conventional Thinking Box". You rightfully have been taught that when a conventional bullet starts to break off and loose weight, penetration decreases and in some cases severely threatened. This is true, in the case of conventional expanding bullets. However, this does not hold water with these bullets, Generation 1 and Generation II CNC machined copper/brass bullets. In the beginning we called them "Non-Cons" for "Non Conventional", they did not adhere to Conventional Rules. Once the blades shear, the remaining bullet is a blunt trauma full caliber solid, that penetrates much deeper than any conventional expanding bullet is capable of doing. As an example take a .458 caliber 500 gr Swift A Frame compared to a .458 420 Safari Raptor

The above example is the RULE, and not an exception across the board in all calibers from .224 to .620 caliber. This holds even more so in animal tissue which is far less dense than the test medium.

True for the most part. I have only shot 140-150 buffalo total including Aussie and Cape buffalo, and somewhere around 100 of those with Raptors from 9.3 caliber (10 or so only) to .500 caliber and have seen at least a 100 shot by others in my party. I can say from what little experience I have that Raptors are the most wicked tissue destroying, trauma inflicting bullet I have ever witnessed in the field. In addtion I have shot well over 150 plains game from Impala to Eland with various Raptors and the same can be said on that front as well. Until you use or witness, its hard to understand. I have used Barnes TSX, Swift A Frames, Woodlieghs, Noslers, and more that I can't think of currently......

I am not trapped in the "Conventional Thinking Box" because I had a personal opinion about the working of the classic bullets that I use for shooting dangerous game and that before the Internet era.

May be you are sponsored by Cutting Edge Bullets and for this reason discussing with a non objective influencer makes no longer sense.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Please. Let’s not let this get personal.

Michael has proven that he spent far more in the development of bullet design. For the benefit of hunters than he received. And has shared volumes of data for our benefit.

 

[michael458]

May be you are sponsored by Cutting Edge Bullets and for this reason discussing with a non objective influencer makes no longer sense.

Let Me Tell you a little story................

At the end of 2005 I started working on a .500 caliber cartridge for Dangerous Game. Two reasons brought this on. In October of 2005 I found myself in Tanzania and was charged by a very belligerent hippo. At 6 steps I was able to sort it out with prejudice, and a Winchester M70 24 inch 458 Lott and 500 gr Barnes FN Solids. During this little episode it seemed time slowed to a crawl, I had plenty of time to think about this, and in my thoughts there had to be something better than this 8 foot long rifle I was toting around. (It seemed like it was 8 ft long anyway). It was not handy, it was not fast on target, and it begged for something better. What? I was at a loss.

I returned home and shortly afterwards a life long friend of mine wanted a 500 S&W on a lever gun. Late 2005 there was no such thing. I was messing with a 338 WSM at the time, I looked at the WSM case, and had a thought. I cut the case with a hacksaw, trimmed it to 1.65 inches and was able to stuff a 500 caliber bullet in the end without issue! Hmmmm....... Light bulbs going off. I then put the cartridge in a WSM Action and Magazine, and it fit perfectly, however, there was a lot of magazine room left over with a 1.65 inch case.

All that night, I was thinking what is similar to a WSM case, that would work in a WSM Rifle? Remington Ultra Mag! I happened to have a 338 Remington Ultra, next day started cutting cases to see what might fit and work, and settled on a 2.25 inch RUM case! Not long afterwards I sent the info to JD at SSK Industries and we went to work on a rifle!

From 2006 forward bullets were an issue, I had more case capacity than the available S&W bullets would handle, and there were no solids at all. Long story, short, I worked with JD and Lehigh to get some CNC bullets in the works. 2006 I made a quick trip to South Africa to bust some plains game with the new .500, and mostly conventional S&W designed bullets. As long as I ran these bullets to their max potential and did not exceed that, they did very well. Most could handle between 1800-2000 fps with 400-500 gr bullets and they did great on plains game. I worked as much as possible with JD and Lehigh to get some solids and some of the new copper CNC trauma inflicting bullets for the heavier animals I had intentions for. In 2007 I was running a Flat Nose solid design at 510 gr in copper at .500 at 2100 fps and a 470 Copper HP at 2200 fps for buffalo and elephant. I took two elephant with the 510 Solid with incredible success and penetration of over 8 ft of elephant, and 5 buffalo with the 470 HP and some other prototype bullets, all with success. The gun had a 18 inch barrel and weighed in at 8 lbs. It was the first real outing of the 50 B&M.

Later in 2009 I took the larger case, 500 MDM at 2.8 inch case in .500 caliber running similar bullets for Aussie buffalo. It was rather impressive and hammered buffalo to the dirt. I shot around 15 or more buffalo with it, and also used the 458 B&M as well with conventional .458 bullets for another 15+........

Later in 2009 I was introduced to Dan Smitchko of Cutting Edge Bullets. CEB was just getting started making bullets. I was not happy with the communications and delivery times from Lehigh. I ordered 500 pieces and it took 4 months. I could not accomplish my goals like that, I would end up to old to shoot by then. I wanted a new and better solid and had some ideas and prototypes we were working with. At this same time I met one of the best friends I could ever have, and he is a genius and a great machinist as well, with a lathe. He started making bullets in .500 caliber and we started a major test project. Shooting and testing prototypes every week, sometime 2-3 days a week.

We took some designs that JD had and started working different angles off the nose and meplat sizes. Once we got to a point, we needed more to work with, I contacted Dan and he was willing to work with us on smaller quanities, which I paid for of course. After about 8 generations we had what is currently known as the BBW #13, and later the CEB Safari Solid. After the last generation was tested and it was an outstanding success we were very pleased with ourselves and called Dan up and told him, he was actually as excited as we were.

After much discussion he asked "What do you guys want for the bullet design?" I looked at Sam and we grinned, we never considered that, our goal was to have this superior design for our own success in the field, and I needed it for my various .500 caliber rifles, but it was so good we took it to all calibers as well.............. We laughed and told him Zero.... just make the bullets for us. We don't want anything except to have the bullets for our use in the field. The design is yours to do with as you please. Dan did not expect that, so then he blurted out that he would make bullets for us for free for life!!!! Damn that is a good deal right? Yes, But, after Sam and I laughed our ass off for a few minutes we had to tell Dan thank you but we can't do that either! I told him "Dan, we need you to be in business and make a living at this, if you make free bullets for us, you will file bankruptcy in 6 months as you will be broke, and then we won't have anyone to make the bullets, so thank you but no thanks, can't do that! But I do get a good deal on them and I order in bulk, normally 250-500 at a time, sometimes several 1000 like the .308 100 Raptors and .224 50 Raptors. And I get dealer price on CEB, but I pay! And I don't get anything in return $$ wise and not an employee or representative or anything else. They are for my own use and that is why we did it.

Right after the BBW #13 we went to work on the Raptors, and that is another chapter. BBW#13... WTF is that? Sam was busy making all sorts of crazy bullets to test weekly and sending them. One day I accused him of making them with a Bastard File, and it turned into "Bastard Bullet Works"...... BBW......... the #13 is the angle off the nose of the bullet at 13 degrees.

Sorry to bust your little bubble, but no I am not sponsered by CEB or any other bullet company on the planet, or any gunmakers or any way shape nor form. I am not in the gun business, bullet business or any firearm related business. I own a very successful Forestry Company and have a job and never wanted another one.

 

[MacJenkins]

100 grain Raptors out of a 308 has been my go to whitetail load for the last 5-6 years. Usually shoot 5-15 on our annual trip. Majority are head shots. The amount of trama these cause is mind blowing. Use to use TTSX which are great bullets but these Raptors are next level.

 

[MacJenkins]

Michael, I probably missed it what was the reason for a flat base on the 100 grain raptor on the 308? Ive shot both on a good amount of deer and could not tell much differnce. Lately have been shooting the boat tail version as its a bit flatter shooting as some of our shots can get out to 300 yards.

 

[Daisy]

I am not trapped in the "Conventional Thinking Box" because I had a personal opinion about the working of the classic bullets that I use for shooting dangerous game and that before the Internet era.

May be you are sponsored by Cutting Edge Bullets and for this reason discussing with a non objective influencer makes no longer sense.

Yeah. But you did have to change the idea of him not having shot enough buffalo to have a different opinion.

 

[michael458]

Michael, I probably missed it what was the reason for a flat base on the 100 grain raptor on the 308? Ive shot both on a good amount of deer and could not tell much differnce. Lately have been shooting the boat tail version as its a bit flatter shooting as some of our shots can get out to 300 yards.

I used the ESP 100 as a Raptor for several years, 308 and 300 BLK. I had the thought that the 100 Flat Base would be easier to load in 300 BLK, and I could get a little more velocity at less pressure than the ESP version. Turns out I was correct on that point. Using the 100 ESP and 19.7/WW 296 I hit max pressures 2449 fps in 16 inch guns. With the Flat Base version I was able to run 20.3/WW 296 at max for 2550 fps in 16 inches. A fair bit of difference in the little cartridge. And same in 7.62X40 as well. Going up to 308 Winchester it was really not an issue whether ESP or Flat Base. Both were excellent for accuracy, and there was no difference in Terminal Performance.

When it comes to .308 caliber for me the 100 Raptor is Go To for everything up to 300 Winchester, which I can run it at 3937 fps at 61000 PSI. Wicked. I have been wanting someone to shoot deer with it but no takers so far..... LOL......... It is a game changer for 300 BLK and 7.62X40. Most of my guys use it in 308 Winchester, and both my boys hunt with 308 Winchester and the 100 Raptors. Deer and such ........ Its one of the bullets I buy in Bulk from CEB, last order was 3000 I believe. I like to have enough on hand you know.

 

[MacJenkins]

I used the ESP 100 as a Raptor for several years, 308 and 300 BLK. I had the thought that the 100 Flat Base would be easier to load in 300 BLK, and I could get a little more velocity at less pressure than the ESP version. Turns out I was correct on that point. Using the 100 ESP and 19.7/WW 296 I hit max pressures 2449 fps in 16 inch guns. With the Flat Base version I was able to run 20.3/WW 296 at max for 2550 fps in 16 inches. A fair bit of difference in the little cartridge. And same in 7.62X40 as well. Going up to 308 Winchester it was really not an issue whether ESP or Flat Base. Both were excellent for accuracy, and there was no difference in Terminal Performance.

When it comes to .308 caliber for me the 100 Raptor is Go To for everything up to 300 Winchester, which I can run it at 3937 fps at 61000 PSI. Wicked. I have been wanting someone to shoot deer with it but no takers so far..... LOL......... It is a game changer for 300 BLK and 7.62X40. Most of my guys use it in 308 Winchester, and both my boys hunt with 308 Winchester and the 100 Raptors. Deer and such ........ Its one of the bullets I buy in Bulk from CEB, last order was 3000 I believe. I like to have enough on hand you know.

Very cool, What has barrel life been in the 308's? I have probably only shot 300 of them in my 308. If I remember correctly I am running them just under 3400.

 

[Fordy]

Gday Srvet

Bullet fragmentation, particularly where multiple small fragments are produced render the soft tissues much more susceptible to permanent damage following temporary cavitation. This was shown by Dr Martin Fackler in the 80s.

Fackler ML, Surinchak JS, Malinowski JA, Bowen RE. Bullet fragmentation: a major cause of tissue disruption. J Trauma. 1984 Jan;24(1):35-9. PMID: 6694223.

Fits to what I’m seeing

I am just back from a buffalo hunt and used the Raptor/Safari solid combo. What struck me was that my first shot hit the top of the humerus, fractured it and the bullet still continued through the chest, fragmented and the base of the bullet exited the body. To me this showed quite incredible penetration which whilst impressive also concerned me slightly due to the risk of causing “collateral damage” in a herd situation. The safari solids were incredible, hit hard and I was very happy with what they did.
As such I plan to also develop a load with controlled expansion bullets that penetrate less than the Raptors for initial shots in herds. I’m thinking the 450g TSX would be a good shout to match with the 450g Safari Raptor in the 458 Lott.

On above if you’re wanting a little bit more insurance of a non exit the tsx is one that I’d be still concerned with

So I’d go to the likes of a woodleigh north fork or rhino solid shank & still drop a bit of weight from the conventional thinking eg in my Jeffery the 535 gr woodleigh is my favoured pill over the 570 ( wounds also better if impacted accordingly )

Seen very little myself in 458 & tsx but my mate who was a guide in the territory ( aussie) awhile ago now had seen more & the tsx had more exits than the likes of woodleigh
Now these are on asiatic buff & these guys have less exits than comparable shots than cape so the likelihood is tsx in 458 & herd situation concerns of collateral damage has a greater chance of occurring so re my thoughts above
Jm2cw
Cheers

 

[Fordy]

Gday Michael 458

Concerning "Nose Projection" is the length of the nose above the top band of the solid portion. Nose Projection is the last known Factor discovered of the 8 Known factors of Solid Terminal Penetration.

It ranks as #4 on the list;

#4 Nose Projection
Nose Projection above the top bands was the last factor discovered. There may be more factors, but currently they remain undiscovered at this point in time.... We found that nose projection above the top of the bands of current CNC monolithic bullets is very important to depth of penetration. Some bullets designed to work through lever actin riflers require a SHORT NOSE PROJECTION in front of the bands so that they can be loaded deep enough to work through the actions of these guns... Nose Projection of these same bullets for bolt guns, single shots, and double rifles are longer, from .600 to .700 in front of the top band. The LONGER NOSE PROJECTION solids will penetrate on average 25% deeper than the shorter nose projection. Now, these bullets already have all the other required factors for stability, nose profile, construction and radius, so it is ONLY DEPTH Of penetration that is effected with properly designed bullets.

Pay attention to the photo below of the loaded 100 ESP Raptor/Solid 30/30 as a solid and you can see a very short Nose Projection above the top band.

View attachment 691748

Now compare the Nose Projection of the 130 ESP Raptor loaded as a solid in 30/30...........

View attachment 691750

The ESP's can be somewhat of a challenge at times depending on the bullet and the cartridge. In the case of the .308 caliber 100 ESP vs the 100 Flat Base Raptor, I much prefer the 100 Flat Base version for general purpose use.

View attachment 691753View attachment 691752View attachment 691751

Thanks for the reply
On point now & makes a sense as to why I’ve seen the difference in some of the solids ( alloy aside )

I’m definitely derailing lol
What are the other factors please

Cheers