Solid before soft point

[Brian]

My next hunt may be for 6 old cows. using my 50-110 Winchester. 410 grain CEB Safari Raptor at 2150 FPS and 450 grain CEB Safari solid bullet at about 2050 fps. I have not yet used the solid, the 410 Raptor has alway worked for a drt kill. Rifle is a TC Encore with a MGM 24" barrel and a small self made Tank type, muzzle brake. ( No it is not too loud.) Brian

 

[Rafiki]

My next hunt may be for 6 old cows. using my 50-110 Winchester. 410 grain CEB Safari Raptor at 2150 FPS and 450 grain CEB Safari solid bullet at about 2050 fps. I have not yet used the solid, the 410 Raptor has alway worked for a drt kill. Rifle is a TC Encore with a MGM 24" barrel and a small self made Tank type, muzzle brake. ( No it is not too loud.) Brian

Brian, what powder are you using? I see you are getting 2150fps for a 410gr bullet; I'm getting 2064fps with a 575gr bullet out of my 50-90. I have a tad more case capacity to work with but regardless that seems like a sizeable difference.

 

[Surgeon1]

Do you have mechanical sights or an optical one with a double barrel?

Trijicon Red Dot on all but one of my doubles. Have had great luck with them even years ago in 3-gun competition, only failure was a month ago when a newly installed Eveready disc battery split in to and forced me to remove sight in the middle of a stalk on 2 Grant's Zebra Stallions. But even with irons it worked out well..... Bang-Bang in less than 5sec at 65 & 85 yds both dead done!

 

[Brian]

Brian, what powder are you using? I see you are getting 2150fps for a 410gr bullet; I'm getting 2064fps with a 575gr bullet out of my 50-90. I have a tad more case capacity to work with but regardless that seems like a sizeable difference.

50-90, Nice case.
I load 75.9 grains of VV 530, one card on top of the powder.
I went to my notes before posting this and I realized that I never did chronograph this load. My old chronograph quit on me before got around to it. So, my MV might be more like 2050fps or even less.
( I have been telling myself that the MV 2150 fps for a long time. lol.
My 50-110 is actually a custom chamber for a true .500 cal like 500 S&W, not .510.

Your MV of 2050 sounds right to me. What rifle is it. Please say it's 1886 Win!

 

[Rafiki]

50-90, Nice case.
I load 75.9 grains of VV 530, one card on top of the powder.
I went to my notes before posting this and I realized that I never did chronograph this load. My old chronograph quit on me before got around to it. So, my MV might be more like 2050fps or even less.
( I have been telling myself that the MV 2150 fps for a long time. lol.
My 50-110 is actually a custom chamber for a true .500 cal like 500 S&W, not .510.

Your MV of 2050 sounds right to me. What rifle is it. Please say it's 1886 Win!

Ruger No 1.

I'm currently using H335 at 95% load density with Peregrine bullets; can't remember exactly but 80.? grains. I just recently lengthened the throat to gain a bit more case capacity on my quest for 2150fps.

 

[Rafiki]

My 50-110 is actually a custom chamber for a true .500 cal like 500 S&W, not .510.

Curious about why you chose .500 over .510. isn't a 50-110 a .500 bore? I just don't see the advantage unless it's a availability thing; that you can shoot pistol bullets at less cost.

What did you do about brass and dies?

Sorry for all the questions, I'm a bit of a nerd about this stuff.

 

[Brian]

Ruger No 1.

I'm currently using H335 at 95% load density with Peregrine bullets; can't remember exactly but 80.? grains. I just recently lengthened the throat to gain a bit more case capacity on my quest for 2150fps.

No. 1 Very nice. Lengthening the case. Good move. I am thinking about doing that with a 45-70 barrel for my TC.
At 2150 fps you will get excellent expansion with the Peregrine bullet.

 

[Brian]

Curious about why you chose .500 over .510. isn't a 50-110 a .500 bore? I just don't see the advantage unless it's a availability thing; that you can shoot pistol bullets at less cost.

What did you do about brass and dies?

Sorry for all the questions, I'm a bit of a nerd about this stuff.

Good question. Yes, it's just a 50-110 Win (.510 to .512 bore.) with a .500 bore.

When I was building the rifle I was in contact with Michael 458. He had developed his series of B&M cartridges, 500 B&M Long, 500 B&M Super Short, 500 MDM. and also had developed a series of "Safari" .500 bullets that are now manufactured and marked by Cutting Edge Bullets. I was impressed with his work and his range of .500 cal bullets appealed to me so I just got carried away and made my 50-110 Winchester into a ".500-110." ( .500 bore)
It was more of a whim, thats all. The only logical thing about it was that first, I already was into 500S&W and secondly I thought that I might do more cartridge development .500. But I never did.

I want to say also that your 50-90 has the same velocity per bullet weight as the mighty 500 NE. That's a good thing.

 

[Rafiki]

I want to say also that your 50-90 has the same velocity per bullet weight as the mighty 500 NE. That's a good thing.

Yes, that was the intent, same performance as a 3" NE case with 2 1/2" Sharps case. They are both black powder cartridges where the NE made the jump to smokeless and Sharps didn't. With "traditional" bullets that was pretty easy to achieve but as you know mono-bullets are a bit different. I ran out of case volume to stay within my parameters.

I'm a believer in bullet mass over velocity. I could have reduced the bullet weight to get more powder in but I wanted the weight so I extended the throut to have more volume to play with.

The other somewhat related thing is that the 500 NE 2150fps advertised sweet spot is from a 28" barrel where mine is a 25" barrel. That's a 3" difference at about 20fps per inch so apples to apples I'm about there now.

 

[Brian]

Yes, that was the intent, same performance as a 3" NE case with 2 1/2" Sharps case. They are both black powder cartridges where the NE made the jump to smokeless and Sharps didn't. With "traditional" bullets that was pretty easy to achieve but as you know mono-bullets are a bit different. I ran out of case volume to stay within my parameters.

I'm a believer in bullet mass over velocity. I could have reduced the bullet weight to get more powder in but I wanted the weight so I extended the throut to have more volume to play with.

The other somewhat related thing is that the 500 NE 2150fps advertised sweet spot is from a 28" barrel where mine is a 25" barrel. That's a 3" difference at about 20fps per inch so apples to apples I'm about there now.

Yes, when it comes to big bores, especially the 50s, velocity is not nearly as significant as bullet weight, design and construction. ( the Peregrine bushmaster does like a minimum MV of 2000 fps due to it's plunger expansion design.) Brian

 

[coreydb]

I shoot deep penetrating soft point first; swift a-frame, followed by a solid; Federal Hydrostatic solid.

 

[Brian]

I shoot deep penetrating soft point first; swift a-frame, followed by a solid; Federal Hydrostatic solid.

That sounds like a good choice.

 

[Brian]

That sounds like a good choice.

I know that the Swift A-Frame is an excellent bullet. I have used it and consider it to be next to the mighty NorthFork.
I don't know anything about the Fed. Hydrostatic solid. How does it perform? I need to check it out.
Thanks, Brian

 

[Brian]

I know that the Swift A-Frame is an excellent bullet. I have used it and consider it to be next to the mighty NorthFork.
I don't know anything about the Fed. Hydrostatic solid. How does it perform? I need to check it out.
Thanks, Brian

Is that the woodleigh Hydrostatic Shock bullet? If so, it is said to have superior terminal ballistic like the CEB Safari #1 Solid and for the same reasons.

It's nose profile is designed to force the "Hydrostatic" tissue away from the sides of the bullet resulting in deeper and straighter penetration and a bigger permanent wound channel. I know for sure that it works in the CEB Safari #13 Solid. I have never heard any first hand reports for the Woodleigh Hydro.

The physics of this is why traditional Round Nose solid sometimes under perform during penetration of the animal. ( Doesn't penetrate in a straight line and not so deep. Also the wound channel collapses more on round nose bullets for less internal bleeding.) Brian

 

[Dhutson]

Going back on another buffalo hunt this year using my .375 H&H. My PH told me that if I used the Barnes TSX or Peregrine (which he said was the SA version of the Barnes) in 300 grain i didn't need a solid. Both are extremely well built bullets. So no solids for me as well.

 

[Brian]

Going back on another buffalo hunt this year using my .375 H&H. My PH told me that if I used the Barnes TSX or Peregrine (which he said was the SA version of the Barnes) in 300 grain i didn't need a solid. Both are extremely well built bullets. So no solids for me as well.

I have used Peregrine bullets on cape buffalo, excellent performance. Also good people, I have met them.

 

[Vinootz]

I didn't read any of the 5 pages of answers. Solids are not needed or wanted on buffalo. That's old school bullet technology. Bullet technology for years now has been about bonded bullets or X style bullets. It's very easy to get exits with the premium expanding bullets today. Put a 400gr .416 TSX on the biggest buff shoulders and you will get an exit. That's fine unless you have animals behind him. I've put a .416 TSX almost length-wise through a very large bodied eland, including the stomach. Solids are only needed for thick skinned DG...elephant, rhino and body shots on hippo.

Solids on buffalo can also get you hammered. Just listen to Alan Shearing's story about how well placed follow-up shots on a buffalo with solids almost got him killed. He's convinced that softs would have had an entirely different outcome.

I suppose it would matter if you intend to hit bone or not. And old school methods often prove time and again they still work. Just saying.

 

[Vinootz]

I am no expert by any means, but after 4 buff bulls, 5 cow buff, all my PH's have always said.
If you are shooting your 458 Lott loaded with Aframes thats all you need, no need for solids.

Yup an AFrame would do it. Great bullet !

 

[Brian]

I have just finished reading this whole thread again. It is a great discussion.
I now have a new way of summarizing how I have come to choose a bullet and calibre for cape buffalo.
My approach is a bit different than some of the above. It's just my way.

First, my buffalo killing experience changed for me when I got past the .375HH, and I experimented with the .500 and bigger in a single shot. Obviously this called for me to do some new thinking for one shot kills.

What bullet and calibre would quickly drop cape buffalo, DRT ( Dead Right There)? Let's say "DRT" means that with a bullet in the boiler room, the buffalo goes down within 20 yds..... usually. I like to take the first shot at 50 yds. That probably means .458 cal. or bigger. For me I have landed on a minimum of .500 cal. or bigger for one shot DRT kills on cape buffalo. That's just me!

The quality and design of dangerous game bullets has evolved a lot in the last 15 years. That means that some of the statements above are getting outdated. Expectations of bullet terminal performance risen. Some of these new bullets really out-perform the older designs.

What I want in a DG bullet.
1. A bullet is better if it does not tumble inside the animal.
2. A bullet should have straight and deep penetration inside the animal even if it hits bone.
3. A large and permanent wound channel is possible with some of the new solids.

For me, these are simple criteria that make a big difference in how far a cape buffalo will travel after the first shot in the shoulder. Most bullets don't do all three of these things well.

I like the CEB Safari Solid, it's much superior to the old round nose solid. My favourite "soft" bullets which include expanding and semi-expanding are NorthFork, CEB Raptors and Peregrine BushMasters. No doubt there are other excellent bullets that I will never get to try. I am 81 now and coming to the end of my buffalo hunting. Just one more hunt... Arnhem Land, Northern Territory, Australia, for a management hunt on Asiatic Buffalo! Happy Hunting.

 

[Miletic]

I have just finished reading this whole thread again. It is a great discussion.
I now have a new way of summarizing how I have come to choose a bullet and calibre for cape buffalo.
My approach is a bit different than some of the above. It's just my way.

First, my buffalo killing experience changed for me when I got past the .375HH, and I experimented with the .500 and bigger in a single shot. Obviously this called for me to do some new thinking for one shot kills.

What bullet and calibre would quickly drop cape buffalo, DRT ( Dead Right There)? Let's say "DRT" means that with a bullet in the boiler room, the buffalo goes down within 20 yds..... usually. I like to take the first shot at 50 yds. That probably means .458 cal. or bigger. For me I have landed on a minimum of .500 cal. or bigger for one shot DRT kills on cape buffalo. That's just me!

The quality and design of dangerous game bullets has evolved a lot in the last 15 years. That means that some of the statements above are getting outdated. Expectations of bullet terminal performance risen. Some of these new bullets really out-perform the older designs.

What I want in a DG bullet.
1. A bullet is better if it does not tumble inside the animal.
2. A bullet should have straight and deep penetration inside the animal even if it hits bone.
3. A large and permanent wound channel is possible with some of the new solids.

For me, these are simple criteria that make a big difference in how far a cape buffalo will travel after the first shot in the shoulder. Most bullets don't do all three of these things well.

I like the CEB Safari Solid, it's much superior to the old round nose solid. My favourite "soft" bullets which include expanding and semi-expanding are NorthFork, CEB Raptors and Peregrine BushMasters. No doubt there are other excellent bullets that I will never get to try. I am 81 now and coming to the end of my buffalo hunting. Just one more hunt... Arnhem Land, Northern Territory, Australia, for a management hunt on Asiatic Buffalo! Happy Hunting.

Thank you for your opinion.
I agree with everything about the new bullet design. 81years is small for people like you. I think you'll be firing a lot more Raptors at bison. I want you to send us a picture of the new bison as soon as possible