Solid before soft point

[Miletic]

Daga boy is approaching me at high speed.
I raise the carbine and shoot.
One bullet after another.
This is a situation I have thought about many times. I wonder if it is better that in say 416 rigby the first bullet is solid and the second soft? In which order do you who have had such situations put the bullets in the barrel? Thank you

 

[Nyati]

Neither solid nor soft, controlled expansion bullet, like Swift AFrame or TBBC

 

[festuscat]

Solid

 

[Miletic]

The significance of the A-frame is ok?
What do you think about 9.3x74r da RWS EVO 18.8g

 

[Miletic]

Or 9.3x74 with UNI Clasic 19.0g?

 

[DieJager]

The significance of the A-frame is ok?
What do you think about 9.3x74r da RWS EVO 18.8g

Or 9.3x74 with UNI Clasic 19.0g?

The uni not sufficient according to RWS themselves. I've talked last year about the uni classic for buffalo and they recommend taking a more sturdy constructed bullet. They pointed me to their competitors.

The evo I don't know.

 

[Miletic]

I didn't know that RWS says Uni is not strong enough. I'm very interested in how EVO would perform

 

[DieJager]

I didn't know that RWS says Uni is not strong enough. I'm very interested in how EVO would perform

I didn't believe it myself when people told me so I emailed them and that was their response. So I ruled them out. They are too soft to be reliable on buffalo and there are better bullets.

 

[Miletic]

Which grains do you mean specifically? Swift a frame is the hardest open tip lead grain and I know it to be effective. That's what Nyati says. I am interested in other grains, for the shade under the a-frame? But it's not a monolith

 

[DieJager]

Which grains do you mean specifically? Swift a frame is the hardest open tip lead grain and I know it to be effective. That's what Nyati says. I am interested in other grains, for the shade under the a-frame? But it's not a monolith

I try to figure out what you mean. Do you mean other bullet weights in lead based projectiles?

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Daga boy is approaching me at high speed.
I raise the carbine and shoot.
One bullet after another.
This is a situation I have thought about many times. I wonder if it is better that in say 416 rigby the first bullet is solid and the second soft? In which order do you who have had such situations put the bullets in the barrel? Thank you

In the past the thinking was.a soft in the chamber with solids in the magazine. The thinking was that you create much tissue damage with the first shot, but penetration was more important in a charge.

The PH that I hunted with on both of my buffalo hunts however prefers solids only, so that's what I did. There was some issue with two charges on the first.bull (1983) but eventually I did break his neck. 39 years later (2022) I went again. Same PH, same .458 Win Mag, and better idea as to exactly where the heart was in a buffalo. I shot him at about 50 yards and he ran about 25 yards before he collapsed dead. So solids can work well, but I think that a controlled expansion bullet, at least as a first shot, might be the better way to go.

 

[mark-hunter]

This is a situation I have thought about many times. I wonder if it is better that in say 416 rigby the first bullet is solid and the second soft? In which order do you who have had such situations put the bullets in the barrel?

In the time when the only option was cup and core soft point this was the holding doctrine.

Clients were advised: first shot soft point to make maximum damage, and when buffalo turns, next place a solid.
Either in brain if charging, or diagonal shot if he is running away for maximum peneteration to reach vitals.

Risk:
Solid can make exit wound and wound a second buffalo in a herd.
Then you will have situation to deal with two wounded buffalos, and then to pay for both of them.
So when shooting solid, a care should be taken about surrounding situation and other buffalos around.

Modern solution.
Use swift a frame, first and second shot on buffalo. Fire and forget.
My PH on buffalo hunt suggested exactly that. It worked for me. Good penetration and no exit wound. swift a frame performed perfectly. Deep penetration and no exit wound

Having said that:
my next PH during our elephant hunt, in buffalo country, when we were hunting other animals, with optional buffalo around told me, when buffalo is around, (as it was) have soft point on top, and solid as second round. So, I was shooting large plains game with softpoints, with second round in magazine being a solid. After first shot on plains game, I wold just top up a soft point on top of solid.

In conclusion, both theories are still alive, and in use.
But majority of modern Ph for buffalo prefer premium soft point ammo like swift a frame, or TSX or TTSX, and forget about solids.

 

[Nhoro]

I would use Peregrine expanding copper bullets from start to finish or A-frame, tsx or TBBC. I would also be happy to follow up with solids.

When conducting photographic walks, I load solids only because elephant is my main concern. Only a brain or spine shot will be quick enough and the bullet type probably doesn't matter much.

 

[375Fox]

First shot is always a premium soft (expanding) bullet. A lot of PHs say premium softs are all you need. Older PHs still like solids (non-expanding) for follow up shots. I’m ok with either option, but the first shot must be a premium soft. You don’t hunt with a solid first because it doesn’t inflict the same damage and risks over penetration and hitting a second buffalo. It can be very difficult to identify if clear behind your buffalo in a herd and in thick brush. I don’t know your European options but swift A frame, trophy bonded bear claw, and Barnes TSX are the top 3 for American hunters. Maybe Northfork SS would be a good option for you in Europe?

 

[Andrew62]

John McAdams, Big Game Hunting Podcast, told his story of hunting buffalo. He loaded his gun with a soft in chamber, solids in the magazine. He shoots said buffalo, buffalo stands there with the herd, because he now only has solids in the gun he cannot take a follow up shot, herd and bull take off never to be seen again. For this reason I would load at least 2 softs then if you want 2 solids I get that. For me, I do not want the confusion of what I have loaded so I fill up my gun with either Aframes or TSX.

 

[Miletic]

I try to figure out what you mean. Do you mean other bullet weights in lead based projectiles?

I'm referring to different projectile constructions. And it can be of different weights. I have no experience with African animals, so I'm asking you which ones you have. I am interested in the effect of different projectiles on the big five, but lead ones. Not monolithic

 

[Miletic]

In the time when the only option was cup and core soft point this was the holding doctrine.

Clients were advised: first shot soft point to make maximum damage, and when buffalo turns, next place a solid.
Either in brain if charging, or diagonal shot if he is running away for maximum peneteration to reach vitals.

Risk:
Solid can make exit wound and wound a second buffalo in a herd.
Then you will have situation to deal with two wounded buffalos, and then to pay for both of them.
So when shooting solid, a care should be taken about surrounding situation and other buffalos around.

Modern solution.
Use swift a frame, first and second shot on buffalo. Fire and forget.
My PH on buffalo hunt suggested exactly that. It worked for me. Good penetration and no exit wound. swift a frame performed perfectly. Deep penetration and no exit wound

Having said that:
my next PH during our elephant hunt, in buffalo country, when we were hunting other animals, with optional buffalo around told me, when buffalo is around, (as it was) have soft point on top, and solid as second round. So, I was shooting large plains game with softpoints, with second round in magazine being a solid. After first shot on plains game, I wold just top up a soft point on top of solid.

In conclusion, both theories are still alive, and in use.
But majority of modern Ph for buffalo prefer premium soft point ammo like swift a frame, or TSX or TTSX, and forget about solids.

You think Solid can shoot a buffalo when he hits it in the shoulder?

 

[IvW]

Daga boy is approaching me at high speed.
I raise the carbine and shoot.
One bullet after another.
This is a situation I have thought about many times. I wonder if it is better that in say 416 rigby the first bullet is solid and the second soft? In which order do you who have had such situations put the bullets in the barrel? Thank you

Controlled expansion standard or heavy for caliber bullets only......no solids.....solids are for elephant and maybe hippo on land.....depending the situation.....

 

[dogcat1]

TSX first, then TSX second, then the PH shoots...

 

[Miletic]

First shot is always a premium soft (expanding) bullet. A lot of PHs say premium softs are all you need. Older PHs still like solids (non-expanding) for follow up shots. I’m ok with either option, but the first shot must be a premium soft. You don’t hunt with a solid first because it doesn’t inflict the same damage and risks over penetration and hitting a second buffalo. It can be very difficult to identify if clear behind your buffalo in a herd and in thick brush. I don’t know your European options but swift A frame, trophy bonded bear claw, and Barnes TSX are the top 3 for American hunters. Maybe Northfork SS would be a good option for you in Europe?

I understand. I didn't use a-frame in Eu because it's too stiff. It just won't open up on small game. Like when you shoot them with FMJ