Shooting vs Hunting / A Growing Ethical Issue

[mark-hunter]

The best “training” for new hunters is a Parent, Grandfather, Brother, Friend, that is an “Experianced” Hunter, Outdoorsman, Firearm Shooter, Archery etc..

Arguably, yes we can say it is the "best" way.
But majority of young generation grows in urban areas without father and grandfather being a hunter to pass on the skills and values. So there must be a system for those to be integrated in community

 

[Hogpatrol]

More government involved? Like companies that fled the United States, over regulation is one factor killing hunting as a sport in this country. When I started, the rule book was minimal, basically seasons and bag limits and very little nanny state, protect us from ourselves regs. Now it's eighty pages the size of a comic book and somewhat contradictory in places. Give that to a kid or new entrant to digest and then ask them if they understand everything or would be able to hunt by themselves. When the equipment rules change, what's next, distances allowed? How would that be policed, with drones? Do hunters really want that? Regardless of the state, the last thing hunters need is another layer of regulations.

 

[Rafiki]

I found this article very timely. Because we hunters hesitate to regulate ourselves (the 'if it is legal it must be ok' mantra is tossed out on this site regularly) wannabe's using game animals as targets, I assume to demonstrate their manhood and latent sniper skills, are becoming enough of an issue that the Wyoming Legislature is getting involved.

One antelope apparently was killed at a reported 2,000 yards. I have no idea what the shooter thought of himself, but "hunter" is not a word that applies to him.

Lawmakers Ponder What, If Anything, Can Be Done To Regulate Extreme-Range Hunting

Wyoming legislators on Friday discussed what can be done, if anything, to regulate extreme-range hunting. In one much talked-about instance, a hunter in…

cowboystatedaily.com

I'm glad that you brought this up as this attitude shows up on these pages way too frequently. We see titles like 'Going to SA, how many animals can I kill in 7 days'. We constantly see posts about extending the range of this or that caliber, killing beasts with calibers that are inappropriate for the task.

Unfortunately for some people it's about the killing not the hunting, there is a difference. Extreme range killing has nothing to do with the process of fair chase hunting. It seems to me that if you are going to hunt you have to be comfortable with the good possibility that you will come back with nothing. Tracks may make thin soup but at the same time most filling.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I was taught in hunter’s education that state law required you to count it. Regardless of law I do count it. Same with dove and pheasant. If I know it was hit I count it. Regardless of species.

Feds only set parameters. States can set their own regs within those parameters. I have never hunted in a jurisdiction where wounded birds count for the bag limit. If the bird is knocked down, that might work. When my dog fails to come up with a downed bird, I count it as part of my daily limit. Personally, I don't enjoy cleaning birds so much that I'll shoot down more than my limit. Not purposely anyway. Rarely I have accidentally gone over the limit. The extra bird(s) go home with me. If I get caught ... well ... punishment not undeserved. My fault for screwing up.

 

[HankBuck]

Arguably, yes we can say it is the "best" way.
But majority of young generation grows in urban areas without father and grandfather being a hunter to pass on the skills and values. So there must be a system for those to be integrated in community

@mark-hunter: I don’t see any Government being capable of passing on (or teaching) “skills & values” but they could set basic Safety Standards and require New Hunters to understand the specific Laws related to hunting & firearm handling - before allocating them a hunting License…so if that’s what you define as a “System” then I Agree with You.

 

[AZDAVE]

Have read through all the posts.

When the discussion of ethics comes into play you are on a slippery path of emotions and opinions. Those of us in our 6th 7th or 8th decade of life have seen a very large shift in "polite society morals and ethics" The take responsibility for ones actions has changed to who can I blame etc kinda yelling matches vs a rational discussion of pick a problem.

I grew up in the west and hunted as a young boy when I could be a deer or elk tag and hunt with any sporting arm (Bow Muzzle loader rifle, shotgun) in any game management unit in the state. Hunted areas I didn't see another hunter in two weeks. areas vast enough that you could call in arty support from a 155 battery and the round never cross a dwelling or building on its flight. I was hunting with a recurve bow (30 yard) or a old 300 savage lever gun 125yard kinda shots. Saw all matter of animals way outside my range and always worked to get close enough. Ate tag soup most years but learned bushcraft and abilities improved to where I was about 50% successful in harvesting my animal but a 100% successful one a great hunt and life experience.

Fast forward years and have taken shooting courses and as a old engineer enjoy the vast improvement in equipment and ability to shoot very accurately out to some amazing distances. I don't hunt at those distances but those distances give confidence in my chosen sporting arm to make the 5-300yard shots.

At one of the long range courses I took, one of the instructors asked me why I like hunting with a double rifle, since they were so inaccurate and short ranged. My answer is in your ideas it is how far can I shoot and mine is how close can I get. Just a difference in perspective, but walked away with respect of each others choices.

Getting the government involved in most any kinda regulation is a recipe for BIG problems.

I would like to see us self regulate and educate within our hunting community for fair chase and ethics.
Not a easy task!!!, but if we don't work together and quit stabbing each group that is different style of hunting we will all loose.

 

[John Wasmuth]

After reading this entire post and seeing what I’m seeing, it’s now clear how he won in 2020………..

 

[Altitude sickness]

 

[MS 9x56]

Most of the members on this forum in my estimation (at least I thought so before this thread) being ethical sportsman let the misses haunt them and the loss of a wounded animal cause us sleepless nights and often cause us to change our methods or increase practice and range time. We don’t have to be told long range shots are unethical. We truly love the animals we hunt and take every opportunity to get as close as is safely possible to ensure a quick and humane kill. One thing we don’t due is associate ourselves with unethical hunters, or give them a voice in our sacred hunting heritage. That is all I have to say on this subject. If someone is upset with this, that is your issue not mine.

 

[SoVa]

I just don’t see any way to regulate it in a practical way. Equipment restrictions would hurt everyone and set the sport back, rules about shot distance would be nearly impossible to enforce. I don’t think something like irons only would help in the good shot placement category.

 

[Scott CWO]

@Scott CWO - I would Not support any Government imposed requirements to obtain a Hunting License other then a minimum age and “Basic Safety Training” (SAFE Firearm handling, Bow, MZ etc..). The best “training” for new hunters is a Parent, Grandfather, Brother, Friend, that is an “Experianced” Hunter, Outdoorsman, Firearm Shooter, Archery etc.. Someone with a vested interest in YOU, and teaching you what’s important. While the Government should make some type of effort to teach the “Very Basic” elements my concern is that regulations become too stringent and therefore prohibitive to what the goal is: A Safe Hunter. Skills - True Skills - are acquired over time….lots of time.

All state-mandated hunter education programs teach safe gun handling. Most also address ethics and I think that is fine. As for mentors, that can work great unless your mentor is unethical.

 

[Flipper Dude]

Did he say “hunting rifles”? LMAO

 

[Flbt]

Most of the members on this forum in my estimation (at least I thought so before this thread) being ethical sportsman let the misses haunt them and the loss of a wounded animal cause us sleepless nights and often cause us to change our methods or increase practice and range time. We don’t have to be told long range shots are unethical. We truly love the animals we hunt and take every opportunity to get as close as is safely possible to ensure a quick and humane kill. One thing we don’t due is associate ourselves with unethical hunters, or give them a voice in our sacred hunting heritage. That is all I have to say on this subject. If someone is upset with this, that is your issue not mine.

I agree with you . I hate a wounded animal even a rabbit or a pest.
But I can’t see limiter on scope size .
I have a 2 long range rifles a heavy 700 in 6mm it has a 8-32x56 Pentax on it.
I hunt with it some. It’s never been fired at a deer past 300 yds
It’s set up for targets and the Amarillos when they are digging up a hay field.
Why should I not be aloud to use it as I am.
Because some other hunter thinks my scope is to big?
The other is a 257w with a 6-24x44 scope.
I Manley got it to the easily increase the range to 400yds I have use it out to 500yd but here the thing I got that rifle for one reason
Crop damage use. So it’s not really hunting.
I have used it hunting some. 400yd was the limit for the most part. And it was only used on big fields where the crop damage permit were used on anyway.
But again why should that rifle not be allowed?

 

[Flbt]

I agree with you . I hate a wounded animal even a rabbit or a pest.
But I can’t see limiter on scope size .
I have a 2 long range rifles a heavy 700 in 6mm it has a 8-32x56 Pentax on it.
I hunt with it some. It’s never been fired at a deer past 300 yds
It’s set up for targets and the Amarillos when they are digging up a hay field.
Why should I not be aloud to use it as I am.
Because some other hunter thinks my scope is to big?
The other is a 257w with a 6-24x44 scope.
I Manley got it to the easily increase the range to 400yds I have use it out to 500yd but here the thing I got that rifle for one reason
Crop damage use. So it’s not really hunting.
I have used it hunting some. 400yd was the limit for the most part. And it was only used on big fields where the crop damage permit were used on anyway.
But again why should that rifle not be allowed?

Some one willing to take a bad shot with a long range rifle will take a bad shot with what ever is in there hand.

I would really like the shot to miss or lost game is with the average hunter with in 300 yds? Any studies on that?

I am not joking about people thinking they were ready to hunt just buying a package rifle and never shooting it.

I honestly can’t believe the number of guys my brother has brought out to my range to show them how to sight in a rifle and to get some practice before season.
And how many think the 100yd range is 200 yds or even more.
Sadly I am not joking

 

[Russ16]

Did he say “hunting rifles”? LMAO

No kidding.

But that video should be mandatory viewing. They should show something like that in hunters ed.

 

[HankBuck]

In my state of Colorado and many others, hunter education is required of anyone born in 1949 and thereafter. It’s working well and has been in place since the 1950s. Before this requirement was enacted, Colorado used to have about four hunter fatalities per year! Now, we might have one every five years. Ethics are taught but as with most things, some people don’t take it to heart enough.

@Scott CWO - I don’t think Hunter Education for those born 1949 or later reduced hunting fatalities - it was Hunter ORANGE requirements that drastically reduced accidental shootings. NJ had Hunter Educcation requirements well before Hunter ORANGE was required — it was the ORANGE that reduced accidental shootings. I’m Not opposed to Hunter Education but it was having everyone dressed like a “Neon Sign” that kept people from getting shot.

 

[Tbitty]

Great video. It makes me want to set up a test for myself.

Interestingly enough, just yesterday a friend, who is not a hunter but occasionally goes with me (and is even going to Africa with me later this month - he will do a cull hunt), asked me what is a hunting distance. My answer mimicked almost perfectly the results of this video: every hunter has to set their own limits, know the factors that change their limits, and whatever they say they can do, should probably reduce it by 25-50% to ensure a clean 1-shot lethal hit.

 

[Altitude sickness]

The cold bore shot trips up a lot of guys. We tend to focus on groups

 

[WAB]

The cold bore shot trips up a lot of guys. We tend to focus on groups

Agreed. I can shoot a 2 to 3” group at 600 every time. However, putting a cold bore shot into 2 or 3” at 600 is not something I can do consistently. I am confident hitting a 10” plate at 600 cold bore with sub 10 mph wind. That’s a pretty big delta and shows the difference between hunting and target demands.

 

[JPmbogo]

First of all, it is about hunting, not shooting. If one is into "shooting" at long range, train for Camp Perry. I personally have hunted mostly with iron sighted rifles (including muzzleloaders) and traditional bows. So, shots out to 100 yds with the rifles and 30 with the bows have been about my personal limits. And yes, I have hunted with scoped rifles, but never beyond 250 yds. or so. I personally believe anything much beyond those self-imposed distances gets into shooting and not hunting. Remember, it's about the chase, not the kill.