Sheesh……………..

[Wishfulthinker580]

Seriously? So somehow I didn't manage to kill old dagga boy with four shots and he has decided to turn me into human hamburger. I should expect the angry bull will take a coffee break while I fumble with locking a round in the magazine and then loading it into the chamber? Or popping the floor plate open to fully load up? No thanks. I want a gun that will let me drop a round in the action and close the bolt all in one movement. No snap over is no good for dangerous game.

 

[One Day...]

Seriously? So somehow I didn't manage to kill old dagga boy with four shots and he has decided to turn me into human hamburger. I should expect the angry bull will take a coffee break while I fumble with locking a round in the magazine and then loading it into the chamber? Or popping the floor plate open to fully load up? No thanks. I want a gun that will let me drop a round in the action and close the bolt all in one movement. No snap over is no good for dangerous game.

You will find, if you try it, that in an emergency, clipping with your thumb a round on top of the empty magazine and slamming the bolt home - which allows the extractor to load correctly from the magazine - is actually much faster that trying to drop a round in the chamber, or trying to lay one on top of the action, and closing the bolt on top of it.

Here is why:

1. you do not need the barrel to point down (which is necessary to drop the round in the chamber);
2. you can do this on the run (good luck just laying a round on top of a bouncing action and loading it while running);
3. you have zero chance of jamming the round with the bullet tip catching on the rear flat of the barrel - especially with truncated solids - (happens regularly when dropping quickly a round in the chamber or laying one on top of the action).

As I said in the above post, try it and clock yourself, you will be surprised. There is a BIG difference between single loading relaxed at the bench and single loading under pressure in the field

So your saying a standard Mauser converted to 3+1 404 Jeff should never be more than 3 + 0?

You can still do the +1 trick, but indeed, as Inline6 says, from the bottom of the magazine, or as Wishfulthinker580 says, if your extractor has enough clearance so that you can compress its rear section to allow the claw to pass sideways around the shell rim into the extractor groove

I will add that a DG rifle based on the Mauser action and designed correctly will have just enough room in the magazine so that you can squeeze down the top round enough in the magazine to allow the claw extractor to grab it on the way to the chamber. This is why well designed Mauser magazines seem to be designed for 3 1/2, 4 1/2, or 5 1/2 rounds (depending on magazine depth); the 1/2 part is to allow correctly loading 3+1, 4+1, or 5+1

 

[BeeMaa]

Arrrggghhh!!! Get yourself a Blaser R8 in 375H&H, 416RM or 458LOTT to load 3+1 (easily) and go hunting.

 

[Inline6]

Arrrggghhh!!! Get yourself a Blaser R8 in 375H&H, 416RM or 458LOTT to load 3+1 (easily) and go hunting.

Have two of those in an R8 and one in a M70 haha

 

[colorado]

Blaser ...

 

[alby]

You will find, if you try it, that in an emergency, clipping with your thumb a round on top of the empty magazine and slamming the bolt home - which allows the extractor to load correctly from the magazine - is actually much faster that trying to drop a round in the chamber, or trying to lay one on top of the action, and closing the bolt on top of it.

Here is why:

1. you do not need the barrel to point down (which is necessary to drop the round in the chamber);
2. you can do this on the run (good luck just laying a round on top of a bouncing action and loading it while running);
3. you have zero chance of jamming the round with the bullet tip catching on the rear flat of the barrel - especially with truncated solids - (happens regularly when dropping quickly a round in the chamber or laying one on top of the action).

As I said in the above post, try it and clock yourself, you will be surprised. There is a BIG difference between single loading relaxed at the bench and single loading under pressure in the field



You can still do the +1 trick, but indeed, as Inline6 says, from the bottom of the magazine, or as Wishfulthinker580 says, if your extractor has enough clearance so that you can compress its rear section to allow the claw to pass sideways around the shell rim into the extractor groove

I will add that a DG rifle based on the Mauser action and designed correctly will have just enough room in the magazine so that you can squeeze down the top round enough in the magazine to allow the claw extractor to grab it on the way to the chamber. This is why well designed Mauser magazines seem to be designed for 3 1/2, 4 1/2, or 5 1/2 rounds (depending on magazine depth); the 1/2 part is to allow correctly loading 3+1, 4+1, or 5+1

Guys Im confused by what you mean filling from the bottom of the magazine, could someone clarify for my benefit? Thanks in advance.

 

[Flewis]

After working the bolt to put a round in the chamber turn the rifle bottom up and open the floor plate and put another round in .

 

[358 Norma]

My Business Rifle started life as a 1st gen Ruger MkII with the beauteous "canoe paddle" stock. I'm pretty sure it push-fed the cartridges and clicked over them with a Mauser style claw. I had the bottom of the bolt face relieved so they could slide under the extractor in true CRF fashion, but considered the ability to drop one in the top in an emergency to be a positive.
But perhaps I'm full of poop. This all took place about 35 years ago and as I age I find my brain turning into a purple milkshake.

You are absolutely correct I had one of the first model "Boat paddle stock" and it was push feed it wasn't until a year or two later they went to control round fed on the Mark II.

 

[Flewis]

After working the bolt to put a round in the chamber turn the rifle bottom up and open the floor plate and put another round in .

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Thanks Aaron N

For everyone's convenience, here it is...

There is nothing wrong with the ad or the seller, they accurately describe how Winchester deals with the claw extractor issue. See here under.

Some see the Win 70 departure from the original Mauser design as an advantage (being able to load a cartridge directly into the chamber); and some - including me - see it as a misunderstanding of the true Mauser extractor purpose and design, and the removal of the true impossibility for the extractor of an unmodified military Mauser to 1) jump the rim and fail to extract; 2) close the bolt on a cartridge inadvertently pushed in the chamber and forgotten there, which has been a documented cause of accidental discharges.

best bolt action for dangerous games

Apologies if this is incorrect, as I am no expert, but I always had the impression that the beveling which allows the extractor to snap over the rim of the cartridge in the chamber was done to the face of the extractor. If this is so I don't see that such beveling would greatly increase the risk...

www.africahunting.com

No apologies needed Christian, this is a rather arcane point

But it becomes very real when the extractor breaks, because -- of course! -- it always happens at the worst possible time in the worst possible place

But -- dare I use the dreaded "trust me!" ? -- break they do...

In truth, if you go back to the drawings I used to illustrate the discussion, depending on how much tolerance is built in the action, it may or may not be necessary to remove material off the face and top of the extractor to allow it to rotate upward in the front bridge and jump over a cartridge rim.

This differs widely between an original pre-war Mauser action and some of the more modern clones -- some of which have so much tolerance in the raceway as to make the very notion of "tolerance" irrelevant, it is more like "wide clearance" (which makes folks erroneously believe that they are "smooth" when actually all they are is "loose").

Winchester, for example, "resolved" the beveling question by having so much clearance in the raceway on the right inside of the front bridge that their extractor could jump the rim of an artillery shell

Original Mausers are tight enough that an unmodified extractor CANNOT jump the rim, which was the entire point of the design to begin with

In my experience, CZ, Zastava, Santa Barbara, etc. are all over the place, which is indeed illustrated by your experience with the Mark X action (imported by InterArms but made by Zastava if memory serves) @doug, with one action closing on a loaded chamber and one not closing.

The entire discussion can be visualized in the drawings, and it is rather intuitive that what allows the extractor to lift/rotate itself over a cartridge rim is whether there is room for it to be lifted/rotated upward or not. All that chamfering the front edge of the extractor hook does, is, originally, to conform to the chamfered groove cut in the cartridge head and allow it to grab it, and, nowadays, to allow it to slide upward on the cartridge head. The real enabler is whether there is room for the extractor to move upward or not.

In the following drawings, the first one represents a Winchester M70; the second one represents a non-modified Mauser 98; and the third & fourth ones represent where modified extractors are beveled, and the risk of doing so...

As I said before, to each their own, but the Mauser system was actually much more clever and anticipated many more issues than most modern folks realize, while using unarguable logic, e.g. if the extractor has space to jump the rim going in, then it has space to jump the rim coming out.

There is also some incredibly smart thinking going in the shape of the firing pin, design of the flag safety, etc. etc.

As to whether "slipping a cartridge directly in the chamber" is faster than clicking one in the magazine for a desperate emergency reload, I invite those who think that slipping one in the chamber is faster, to practice doing both and asking their wife to clock them doing so. Here is the catch (pun fully intended): quite often the cartridge just dropped on top of the empty magazine does not slide forward IN THE CENTER of the action, aligned with the chamber, quite often, it catches on the rear edge of the chamber, especially with semi truncated solids.

Do yourself a favor, do not believe me, try it for yourself

All logical and a lot of thought and hard work went into this post. Thank you.

 

[alby]

After working the bolt to put a round in the chamber turn the rifle bottom up and open the floor plate and put another round in .

Thanks Flewis Im on the same page now. ‍

 

[csmiffy]

well i have what i think is a post war Brno mauser 8x57 sporter. It will not snap over a round in the chamber if you push the bolt or at least i am too scared to try with aggression. It doest do it with a solid push.
it will however go over a case in the chamber if you squeeze on the middle of the extractor while pushing/turning the bolt. From that it would suggest it has a classic shaped extractor with just enough clearance on the raceway to let it do that much like the second diagram.
From memory my parker hale 270 does the same but been a while since i had that out.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

well i have what i think is a post war Brno mauser 8x57 sporter. It will not snap over a round in the chamber if you push the bolt or at least i am too scared to try with aggression. It doest do it with a solid push.
it will however go over a case in the chamber if you squeeze on the middle of the extractor while pushing/turning the bolt. From that it would suggest it has a classic shaped extractor with just enough clearance on the raceway to let it do that much like the second diagram.
From memory my parker hale 270 does the same but been a while since i had that out.

Can you supply a photo of bolt face?

I am building a 404 Jeffery on one of those. The action finally arrived yesterday. It's wearing a new aftermarket 30-06 barrel and I put it in a junker stock last night while I'm waiting for the good wood to arrive. Decided to try running a 30-06 round through it before spinning off the barrel. Couldn't feed a shell from the magazine. After several attempts I removed the bolt and checked the chamber. Upon examination I could see the extractor claw was beveled for "snap over" so I dropped a round in the chamber and closed the bolt. It closed quite stiffly and I was almost surprised when the shell extracted. Stuffed it in the magazine and it loaded slick into the chamber. And again. Not a clue what was causing the issue. In any event I don't plan to shoot a round through it with either barrel without checking the head space.

 

[csmiffy]

Can you supply a photo of bolt face?

I am building a 404 Jeffery on one of those. The action finally arrived yesterday. It's wearing a new aftermarket 30-06 barrel and I put it in a junker stock last night while I'm waiting for the good wood to arrive. Decided to try running a 30-06 round through it before spinning off the barrel. Couldn't feed a shell from the magazine. After several attempts I removed the bolt and checked the chamber. Upon examination I could see the extractor claw was beveled for "snap over" so I dropped a round in the chamber and closed the bolt. It closed quite stiffly and I was almost surprised when the shell extracted. Stuffed it in the magazine and it loaded slick into the chamber. And again. Not a clue what was causing the issue. In any event I don't plan to shoot a round through it with either barrel without checking the head space.

I have attached pics of the 270 and the 8x57 bolt face. The 8mm is the original bolt for the rifle, the 270 is not. I had an action and needed a bolt.
Neither will close on a round dropped in the chamber, at least without being a dickhead. They both will if pushing on the middle of the extractor along the bolt body as described earlier.
The 8mm bolt has the rusty looking bronze tinge to the face of the extractor. That isn't rust as it is a finish on a lot of the extractor. The bolt is more blued looking as well. The 270bolt looks bright and shiny