SCI Adopts Policy On Captive Bred Lions

Not knowing the details of your hunt, but as a comment to pen raised lions in general this is what SCI is using to distinguish the difference.

“The animal must have freely resided on the hunted property and the area to be hunted for six months, or longer. The animal must be part of a breeding herd that is resident on the hunted property.”


Releasing an animal, and it should be any animal not just lions days before being shot, is what SCI and DSC have an issue with. And don’t worry, I am sure the practice will continue, it is not a ban, it is not a law, it is an ethical decision made by two hunting organizations. It is also definitely not a win for the anti-hunters. And I am sure operators will somehow circumvent SCI’s decision through some loophole and continue to sell these shootings at the show.

So this will exclude ALL CBL lions as none of them will make this criteria and even the few selected ranches who are members of SAPA, their lions will also not make it.

Some SAPA and PHASA members were under the impression that only the 6 months pre-release would be necessary for SCI recognition.
 
Coming to think of it this will also exclude all Sable, Buffalo or any other animal for that matter if only males are present on a ranch/concession, put there for the sole purpose of being hunted.

I would really like to know who will be tasked to police this, as it is an impossible task.
 
Coming to think of it this will also exclude all Sable, Buffalo or any other animal for that matter if only males are present on a ranch/concession, put there for the sole purpose of being hunted.

I would really like to know who will be tasked to police this, as it is an impossible task.

I have always viewed hunting,especially in Africa, as an honorable sport enjoyed by men of integrity. While unlikely I hope we would abide by the rules of our hunting organizations if we intend to participate.

I believe awards and record books have diminished the integrity of what we enjoy. Also the need for instant gratification such as shooting a lion in a day or two while staying in a five star resort has diminished the experience.

In reality I do not see things changing much, there will always be a market for this type of shooting, except perhaps entry in the SCI record books.
 
As a life-long Texan who first went deer hunting here 53 years ago, I have a few points about Texas hunting. . . . Hunting over a corn feeder is not traditional in Texas, as someone stated. When I started hunting no one had heard of a corn feeder. We use them today because hunters have changed. . . . .

Well not quite. Texas Hunter Products (formerly Braden Sheetmetal) has been selling corn feeders for the last 60 years. I have a couple of the original bucket feeders, they were wind operated and you ran a rope over a tree branch to hang the bucket. It was not until, folks like Sweeney, Lehman H, and Spincast advertising in the back of Texas Parks & Wildlife Magizine that the large hopper with battery & timer feeders took off. I can clearly remember going to the feed store with my dad and buying 50 lbs burlap bags of corn to put into the buckets, and pulling on the rope of lift the buckets like it was yesterday. Now days I have been using 300 lbs Sweeney Feeders and an Auger to fill them, times have changed. But I am Selling those and buying 3000 lbs Outback feeders to fed corn year round.
 
I have always viewed hunting,especially in Africa, as an honorable sport enjoyed by men of integrity. While unlikely I hope we would abide by the rules of our hunting organizations if we intend to participate.

I believe awards and record books have diminished the integrity of what we enjoy. Also the need for instant gratification such as shooting a lion in a day or two while staying in a five star resort has diminished the experience.

In reality I do not see things changing much, there will always be a market for this type of shooting, except perhaps entry in the SCI record books.
Agree with you Mike. Along the lines with your post....If I go to S.A. this summer and take a lion, knowing I am not bringing it back anyway, how could SCI possibly punish me? I don't go to their conventions, so they can't ban me from going. On the other hand, I am a member of DSC also and try not to miss their conventions. But their conventions are open to the public anyway, they never ask me for I.D. when paying my entry fee. And I personally have no interest in record books. So again, what can either organization do to me if I don't follow their policies?
 
I have always viewed hunting,especially in Africa, as an honorable sport enjoyed by men of integrity. While unlikely I hope we would abide by the rules of our hunting organizations if we intend to participate.

I believe awards and record books have diminished the integrity of what we enjoy. Also the need for instant gratification such as shooting a lion in a day or two while staying in a five star resort has diminished the experience.

In reality I do not see things changing much, there will always be a market for this type of shooting, except perhaps entry in the SCI record books.
Glad to see you back Mike and a hearty +1
 
........... But I am Selling those and buying 3000 lbs Outback feeders to fed corn year round.
Going to be some tasty steaks around your place.
 
Agree with you Mike. Along the lines with your post....If I go to S.A. this summer and take a lion, knowing I am not bringing it back anyway, how could SCI possibly punish me? I don't go to their conventions, so they can't ban me from going. On the other hand, I am a member of DSC also and try not to miss their conventions. But their conventions are open to the public anyway, they never ask me for I.D. when paying my entry fee. And I personally have no interest in record books. So again, what can either organization do to me if I don't follow their policies?

DSC’s statement was they did not support the canned lion shoots, but stopped short of saying they would not allow the sale.

If you would shoot a penned raised lion and enter it in the SCI trophy book under false statements SCI could terminate your membership but not much else.

Neither club has a jail that I know of.
 
Going to be some tasty steaks around your place.

I hate to tell you this but, their will be no deer steaks. I take the back straps & tenderloins and make those into jerky and the rest of the deer is ground up and made into sausage mixed with pork. Just finished drying the sausage. 52 smoked ring links and 92 cold dried ring links.
 
Well not quite. Texas Hunter Products (formerly Braden Sheetmetal) has been selling corn feeders for the last 60 years. I have a couple of the original bucket feeders, they were wind operated and you ran a rope over a tree branch to hang the bucket. It was not until, folks like Sweeney, Lehman H, and Spincast advertising in the back of Texas Parks & Wildlife Magizine that the large hopper with battery & timer feeders took off. I can clearly remember going to the feed store with my dad and buying 50 lbs burlap bags of corn to put into the buckets, and pulling on the rope of lift the buckets like it was yesterday. Now days I have been using 300 lbs Sweeney Feeders and an Auger to fill them, times have changed. But I am Selling those and buying 3000 lbs Outback feeders to fed corn year round.

Well, this is true. I remember the 5 gallon bucket ones operated by wind back in the '60s, and around 1970 a friend wanted me to go in halves on something like a modern feeder. But they weren't common.
 
This is SCI’s definition of estate hunting:

The Record Book Committee of Safari Club International defines an “Estate” category in the Record Book of Big Game Animals as follows:An “Estate” will be any property or area that uses an artificial or unnatural restrictive barrier, in most cases a fence, which restricts or confines the movement of game animals.The restrictive barrier may consist of multiple sides, or only one side.If the artificial barrier is used in conjunction with a natural barrier such as a bluff, canyon, river, lake or other natural barriers, then the enclosed area is also considered an “Estate”. Any game animal taken within the confines of such an “Estate” will be considered for the “Estate Taken” category of that species. Any game animal taken that was raised, or kept for a long period of time, within the confines of an “Estate” and then intentionally or unintentionally releasedoutside of the “Estate” will only be considered for the “Estate Taken” category of that species. If an animal does not fall into this category it will be considered free range. SCI Fair Chase Requirements for Record Book Entries of Estate Animals are as follows. An Estate animal must meet the following criteria in order to be qualified for entry into the Record Book. The animal must have freely resided on the hunted property and the area to be hunted for six months, or longer. The animal must be part of a breeding herd that is resident on the hunted property.The operators of the hunted property must provide freely available and ample amounts of cover, food and water at all times. The hunted property must provide escape cover that allows the animals to elude hunters for extended periods of time and multiple occurrences. Escape cover, in the form of rugged terrain or topography, and/or dense thickets or stands of woods, shall collectively comprise at least 50% of the hunted property. The animal must exhibit its natural flight/ survival instincts. No zoo animal, exhibited animal or tame animal may be considered for entry into the Record Book. Hunting methods employed cannot include driving, herding or chasing the animal to the hunter. SCI supports prevention, management, and research of all wildlife diseases as it pertains to high fenced and non-high fenced hunting areas.

I am glad to see SCI and DSC take a stand on these issues. Surprisingly it is SCI that went a step further than DSC and could possibly take a hit in their pocket book. Now SCI should adopt the criteria for a shootable male lion similar to DSC. Paul Babaz are you listening???

I feel it is ridiculous to compare hunting behind a high fence for any game to shooting a pen raised animal that was released just a day or two prior to being shot. Very few outfitters will allow lions to roam their property for six months eating their prize plainsgame and buffalo. And I agree it should apply to more than lion but at at least it is a step in the right direction.

For me none of this has anything to do with appeasing anti-hunters. It is about organizations setting standards. If you don’t like it, don’t join or work to change it. Personally I applaud the decision.
Mike, I am indeed listening and I apologize for not visiting this thread earlier. To your point on aging a male lion, SCI/SCIF has been funding Dr. Paula White's research on aging a male lion in the field and there are many opinions on this, but there is yet any foolproof method, although there are some who will claim they can accurately age a lion in the field. To me it's similar in my professional life where I see folks who can claim to be able to time the market and able to get out at the top and back in at the bottom, but I can say in the last 25 years, I've yet to see anyone who can actually back up the claim. At any rate, I appreciate all the comments on this issue both in support and the opposition as well. I'm glad folks involved in the discussion. Paul
 
Mike, I am indeed listening and I apologize for not visiting this thread earlier. To your point on aging a male lion, SCI/SCIF has been funding Dr. Paula White's research on aging a male lion in the field and there are many opinions on this, but there is yet any foolproof method, although there are some who will claim they can accurately age a lion in the field. To me it's similar in my professional life where I see folks who can claim to be able to time the market and able to get out at the top and back in at the bottom, but I can say in the last 25 years, I've yet to see anyone who can actually back up the claim. At any rate, I appreciate all the comments on this issue both in support and the opposition as well. I'm glad folks involved in the discussion. Paul


I believe that DSC adopted J. Lane Easter, DVM definition of a huntable lion.
 
Folks,

I am new to this forum but I'd like to comment on some of these points. As the CEO of Safari Club International I was involved in all the discussions as our Board reached their position.

The timing of the release of our position had nothing to do with maximizing publicity. We felt that our position was newsworthy to a lot of people in the hunting world and so we released the position as soon as our Board finished meeting, which was on the second day of our four-day Convention. Also, we were getting a lot of questions from all sides about our position, including from other hunting organizations that had already taken positions opposing the hunting of captive-bred lions. Some of those were professional hunter organizations in Africa.

The issue was discussed in great detail by our governing bodies before the position was reached. All aspects were considered. The collective judgement of our Board, which is large and is full of experienced hunters, was that there was a distinction between breeding and hunting an apex predator in a hunting estate setting and the hunting of other species in the same setting.

Our fair chase standards for estate hunting are:
  1. The animals hunted must have freely resided on the property on which they are being hunted for at least six months, or longer.

  2. The hunting property shall provide escape cover that allows the animals to elude hunters for extended periods of time and multiple occurrences. Escape cover, in the form of rugged terrain or topography, and/or dense thickets or stands of woods, shall collectively comprise at least 50% of the property.

  3. The animals hunted must be part of a breeding herd that is a resident on the hunted property.

  4. The operators of the preserve must provide freely available and ample amounts of cover, food and water at all times.

  5. Animals that are to be hunted must exhibit their natural flight/survival instincts.

  6. No zoo animals, exhibited animals or tame animals are to be hunted.

  7. Hunting methods employed cannot include driving, herding or chasing animals to awaiting hunters.

I hope this helps everyone understand our stance. We are aware that there are lots of opinions on this.

Rick Parsons, CEO
Safari Club International
 
Thanks Rick . Does this also apply to the 40 and 50k stags sold at auction in NZ ? Would the escape and natural cover be sufficient in these cases
 
Folks,

I am new to this forum..............
Rick Parsons, CEO
Safari Club International


Welcome to Africa Hunting Rick. I appreciate you dropping by and participating!
 
................... The collective judgement of our Board, which is large and is full of experienced hunters, was that there was a distinction between breeding and hunting an apex predator in a hunting estate setting and the hunting of other species in the same setting. ................
Rick Parsons, CEO
Safari Club International


There are certainly plenty of opinions on the subject.

Rick, I would really like to read the elaboration on the "distinction". I hope you can help me understand that point.

Thanks

ps. Can we please give the guy a minute to reply before.......
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Welcome @Rick Parsons !

Thanks for taking the time to reply here and please don't be a stranger. I personally hope that you'll begin to post regularly.
 
Rick that is the biggest load of bs I have seen in awhile. You did what you thought would cover your backside. With all the deer and elk that get raised for hunting you should be ashamed of yourself for making anyone animal have a different set of rules. You know dam well some guy throws a few females in with a group of raised deer or elk it is not any different. So many of those deer or elk never get released to be hunted for more then a few weeks maybe a month.You will not watch or check any of those hunts and enter them all in the book.

It was just easy to give in on the lions because they can not be brought back here anyway. Just another reason why I am no longer a sci member. Sci lost it way many years ago and is just a group all about what is easy anymore.

Your either ok with animals being raised to be hunted or not. Anti's don't care by the way and will keep coming even the you caved on raised lions.
 


He can take his time replying to you and you can wait . I am not looking for a reply because is will be bs anyway.
 

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