School me on .375, velocity, and Dangerous Game

[Tarheelpwr]

Im looking to put together my first larger bore. I was thinking about a .375 H&H, but then I stumbled onto the .380 Howell, and it seemed very logical. So, question is, will there be any difference on game? The Howell runs about ~100 FPS slower than the H&H. 270 gr at 2600 vs 2700 for the H&H.

I have no frame of reference on larger DG.

I'd like to build one now so I can start to get familiar with over the next couple of years while I save for a DG hunt.

So, would there be any difference? Would anyone not take the Howell on a DG hunt due to 100 fps where the would go using the H&H (keep this in reference to the H&H, I know there could be a case for even bigger.)

I was thinking about just going 9.3x62, but the Howell seems to edge it out slightly, and it also hits the magic .375 to take legality out of the equation insole countries. I also picked up several hundred of the cheap Midway .375s so I can feed it CHEAP

Thanks,
Chris

 

[rookhawk]

If you're looking for the nicest gun for the money,go with 375hh as many fine rifles come up second hand. High supply, moderate demand.

If you're going to build from scratch how about a 404J to give you additional capability?

I don't know about 380 Howell but I suspect it's a lot of cost to go with something that doesn't get you more than a 375.

 

[Tarheelpwr]

I def have the 404 bug. But, I have no experience with big recoilers. I want to spend some time with a 9.3/.375 class and work up.

The .380 is actually a 30/06 sized case. It's longer and proprietary, so not just a modified /06. Brass is $1 (Bertram) and dies are $125. So, once you factor in the savings from a standard size action and components, I don't see price being prohibitive.

You save a modest amount of recoil/size/etc at the cost of about 100 FPS.

Wayne Jacobson at American Hunting Rifles owns rights to the Howell.

 

[Bullthrower338]

I would not be concerned with the 100 fps loss, I would on the other hand worry about the lack of ammunition available if/when your ammo doesn't show up to the same place you are. The .380 Howell is a fine cartridge, it has performed well on game. I don't subscribe to a belt less case is better than a belted one, I could really care less. I like wildcat cartridges when I'm close to my reloading press and driving to my hunting location, not so much when I'm not in complete control of my own destiny. I have a beautiful 375 Whelen AI that I would have loved to take to Africa but I didn't just due to the fact that I would stand a better chance of seeing Hillary send in NRA dues than finding ammo to feed my rifle. Although losing your ammo is a lot less likely than talked about, I know my luck and I took the good ole 375 H&H!
Cheers,
Cody

 

[rookhawk]

@Tarheelpwr if you read any of my posts you'll find I'm a gigantic recoil sissy. I wouldn't endorse a gun that's miserable to shoot. (No love lost between me and Mr. Weatherby)

A properly contoured stock for your length of pull with premium low scope mounts to keep your face welded to the comb and a 375 is a rather pleasant gun to shoot. Roughly the same recoil as a 30-06 because the 375s are usually 12-18 ounces heavier which mitigates recoil. Really, a British stock shape with proper dimensions takes away the sting.

Both the 375 and 404 will work in a standard commercial Mauser action which is their appeal. You go bigger than the two aforementioned and you just went into double square bridge magnum Mauser land where $4000 gets you an action in the white, generally speaking.

Another great option is a CZ custom shop rifle in the $2500-$3500 range in any caliber you can dream up in magnum class.

Have fun on your project! I look forward to hearing what you decide to do.

 

[Tarheelpwr]

Thanks for the input.

338- that is s good point about ammo. I always told myself I'd mail a couple different packages of ammo ahead of myself, but nothing is full proof.

Rook- I'm not too worried about recoil in the 375, but I think I want to spend some time there before I jump into a 404. I know it's on the lighter side of a big bore, but it's still s big jump from where I'm at now.

Triple River (CZ's custom smith) quoted me around $2000 for a 404. Montana Rifle Company will do one for $200 over retail since its non standard, so $1650 ish for their All weather vantage. I just think I want to wait a bit in the big bore.

There's always the option of a used CZ 375 and an AHR level 1 tune up.

 

[Rob404]

I'd go with a 375HH. The availability of Ammunition off the shelf most anymore in the world or the low price of re-loading makes it attractive, The absolute versatility of the cartridge is outstanding, if you get into re-loading you will really see the potential this caliber has bullet weights from 200g to 350, You can get velocities from about 2600fps with a 300g to over 2900fps with a 235g. As to the 9.3 I looked at one a while back but when I compared ballistics I really couldn't see any advantage over the 375 which can be used for DG, most areas in Africa have a minimum of 375 jmtc

 

[Pheroze]

I think the problem with the 375 H&H is this website Reading too many posts makes it seem humdrum. However, it is a really remarkable caliber that was the product of extensive trial and error over 100 years ago. The more I use it the more I love it as a hunting round. I would be genuinely surprised if you didn't too.

My two cents is that the only reason to go with the proprietary cartridge is because it has grabbed your interest and you want to. And, BTW, that is absolutely OK. If it were me, and I didn't get the one that grabbed my interest, I would very soon find myself with two guns instead of the one I planned on If you got to your safari without your ammo the camp rifle would be a reasonable, albeit disappointing, alternative.

 

[matt85]

the standard loads for the 375 H&H is a 300gr bullet at around 2500fps. i dont know anything about the 380 howell so i cant say much one way or the other on it.

200-270gr bullets are often used in the 375 H&H for PG but unless we are talking about mono-metal bullets then those weights are too light for DG. the 375 H&H firing a 300gr bullet has proven to be acceptable for all game that walks the earth (although i doubt id hunt elephant with it).

-matt

 

[Tarheelpwr]

I was referring to a mono with the 270gr.

I'm not sure I was clear in my OP. Basically, what I'm looking to know;

What are your all's preferences for DG; a rifle that is 1# lighter but 100 FPS slower (380 Howell) or the added weight of the H&H for the added performance.

I know the H&H is tried and true and out performs the Howell, but I didn't know if there's any on game performance difference between a 300 gr TSX at 2500 vs a 300 TSX at 2400fps. Or a 270 at 2600 vs 2700.

I know if we're talking a standard hunting rifle for standard US game, id opt for the lighter/more compact package and not even balk at 100 FPS. I just didn't know if that 100 FPS matters when you're talking DG and bigger bullets.

The 380 is still .375 caliber, so maintains the same versatility as the H&H in terms of bullet options.

 

[Clayton]

... difference between a 300 gr TSX at 2500 vs a 300 TSX at 2400fps. Or a 270 at 2600 vs 2700...

Whatever you shoot with either one's not going to know the difference. And neither will you. If nothing else, the availability of H&H brass and ammo begs to opt for the H&H.

And this is just my $0.02 worth.

 

[Tarheelpwr]

Thanks for the input. Seems like size/weight of the rifle never enters the equation for most people with experience. I guess maybe I'm just carrying over my bias from LW backpack style rifles.

Ease of an off the shelf rifle is also a plus for the H&H.

 

[IronCowboy]

Personally, as I have taken upon building different rifles over the years, I've yet to have found myself concerned with too MUCH weight in a DG rifle. Usually I find myself trying to ingeniously add weight without sacrificing balance, and without "cheating" by adding lead or mercury internal to the stock. A .375 H&H need not weigh 20lbs, by any means, but throwing a ~2lb standard profile walnut stock under a 2.6lb Mauser action, screwing on a 3lb tube and a pound of lockwork and bottom metal, a guy falls just short of the ideal 9lb for an H&H. Thickening the stock tends to be the easiest way to offer extra weight without spot loading.

Dropping down to a standard long action, as opposed to a Magnum length action doesn't really buy much in terms of length reduction - half inch typically within a given brand (Remingtons & Mausers are the same length for long and magnum lengths). Want to reduce length? Cut the barrel back.

The first 375 H&H I built was on a Remington 700 donor rifle (push feed blasphemy, I know) and I foolishly kept the factory synthetic stock with a heavy sporterweight barrel, the resulting rifle was 7.5lbs... Awfully behaved rifle...

So I wouldn't spend much time bouncing thoughts about standard length or magnum length action...

Now... If you want a 380 Howell, far be it from me to recommend against it... It's not a wrong answer, even if the H&H might be a bit more right - solely due to the ammunition availability in country.

 

[Tarheelpwr]

the ideal 9lb for an H&H.
..

.

That helps, so 9# is the benchmark for weight. Is that gun weight, or all up weight? Just wondering because I see the Kimber and Sako .375 both weigh 8# as rifles. They'd be right about 9# scoped.

 

[sestoppelman]

Never heard of the round, so looked it up and see it is a fine looking round, just a stretched out '06 necked up. Nothing wrong with that, should be a good feeder, however nothing feeds as slick as the H&H rounds with their sloping shoulder and body taper. Not being able to find ammo everywhere like the H&H is a small potential issue, but an unlikely one. Power wise it really amounts to shooting a .338 Win mag with a little bigger bullet. Remember too that the larger H&H case can reach full velocity at somewhat less pressure than the Howell likely will due to its larger capacity. I would like to see a pic of the H&H alongside the Howell for comparative purposes. As to the OP 's original question, I doubt any animal can really tell the difference of a 100 FPS if hit by 300 grs of .375 caliber bullets, but when talking about dangerous game, many consider even the H&H round as marginal. I don't ascribe to this but many do.

 

[colorado]

I have a CZ 550 in 500 Jeffery. It's weight and size is about perfect in my mind for that round, but too heavy and bulky for a 375 H&H. I'd want a 375 H&H to weigh no more than 8.5 lbs unloaded without scope, rings and sling. If the stock is designed well at fits you, recoil is not an issue. The new Model 70 Safari Express comes in at 9 lbs which is close enough, the CZ 550 at 9.1 lbs. Both good guns, if you go with the CZ I'd recommend to go with the AHR #1 CZ upgrade (single stage match trigger, straighten and fill bolt, 3 pos M70 type safety) which I did with my CZ 550. If you build your own own a Mauser action, you could get the weight down and have the balance point where you want it, which is a big deal in my mind.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/produ...rrent-production/model-70-safari-express.html

http://www.winchesterguns.com/produ...rrent-production/model-70-safari-express.html

 

[Tarheelpwr]

Thanks again! The more I run numbers and scenarios, the Howell doesn't likely make sense. Recoil is going to end up being the same due to rifle weights and that is really the only draw. I lose the ability to get a gun off the rack, I'm FORCED to hanldoad everything, plus a handful of other things

Colorado,
How did Wayne's number 1 turn out? Does he tune up the action at all? I just unloaded a CZ 9.3 that I never got around to messing with, mostly due to the rough action. Would his tune up improve that?

I have a line on a lightly used CZ 550 in .375 with QD Talleys for a song, but I was a bit hesitant due to my other CZ. I'm also giving some thought to having the .375 be an all weather gun. I know I'll end up with a 404 some day. I can make that more of a classic wood/blue gun.

How do the CZ style hog back stocks handle recoil? I loved the feel, but again, I didn't touch any rounds off to get a feel.

What barrel length does the H&H need? What's sort of a minimum and ideal length.

 

[Velo Dog]

Hi Tarheelpwr,

One more vote for the H&H version.
Any possible advantage to wildcat or proprietory cartridges is not noticed by animals being hunted.
Furthermore, such "improved" cartridges only inspire a collective yawn from people you try to sell it to later.

Light weight rifles have their place (sheep & goat hunting in seriously high mountains for one example).
But a .375 needs to weigh around 9 pounds or, it will kick you smartly, thereby making it difficult to fire hundreds of rounds in training-up for an expensive hunt.
(Recoil is not brutal but about twice that of a .30-06 with 180 or heavier bullet in equal weight rifles).

Regarding your velocity question, my favorite load in .375 is the Hornady 300 grain round nose at 2400 fps (about 150 fps slower than factory claimed ballistics).
This has proved extremely effective for me on both African animals and Alaskan ones as well.
Recoil is slightly less and accuracy is satisfyingly excellent.
With it, properly hit animals virtually always expire so quickly that a second shot is not warranted.
Nonetheless, it is very easy on meat (your PH will appreciate that).

The Hornady RN bullet line is getting hard to find now (going out of production?).
I've also used the 300 gr Nosler Partition (semi-spitzer) at this tame speed with perfect results.
These days, sometimes the Nosler Partition is over looked but, I feel it is still one of the very best African "plains game" bullets available, (even though in .375 diameter it is semi-pointy in shape - LOL).

I plan to use the Woodleigh as my round nose bullet when my Hornady supply runs out one day.
(IMO - blunt shaped bullets seem to hit harder and track straighter through
flesh, and bone).
The Woodleigh core is bonded to the jacket and well proven on big game around the world.

As for mono-metal expanding bullets, I'm not sold on them yet.
Many here use them with perfect results but I've had no bullet failures with old fashioned lead core bullets at old fashioned velocities plus, I have a large supply of same.
So, I personally have no need to use anything else for awhile.

As a soft for buffalo, my preference would be the Swift A-Frame (likewise, I have stashed away a decent supply of A-Frames as well).
But only having shot one buffalo in my entire life, I encourage you to take my opinion on that subject with a pinch of ghost pepper.
Your safest bet is to ask the PHs about this, especially which ever PH you decide to book with.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[sierraone]

I thought .375 and H&H go together like SS and 396!!! But it's probably just me...

 

[sestoppelman]

I thought .375 and H&H go together like SS and 396!!! But it's probably just me...

Oh a Chevy nut eh?

Best length of barrel for a .375 is 24", best of all worlds. The CZ hog back stocks don't bother me, in fact I think I shoot better with them.