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Mr. Zorg

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Just a review of my first experience with @SafariAMMO.NET. I clicked on the link present in the advertising section for this forum, offering 20% off the first order (notably, a link to obtain or even mention of this first purchase discount doesn't appear on the Safariammo.net home page, a nice perk for being a member of this forum). I followed the directions and promptly received the discount code.

I ordered some difficult-to-find GECO brand rifle ammunition. I recently purchased a 7X64mm Brenneke caliber rifle so I ordered 2 boxes each of that caliber loaded with the 165 grain Softpoint (Teilmantel) and 170 grain Plus projectiles. The Plus projectile resembles the Norma Oryx projectile and were great to locate since Norma appears to have stopped manufacturing their 7X64mm ammo loaded with the 170 grain Oryx projectile.

I also ordered two boxes of GECO 9.3X62mm rifle ammunition loaded with the 255 grain Plus projectile. This is a projectile weight midway between Norma's 9.3X62mm Oryx loads with their 232 and 286 grain Oryx projectiles. The 9.3X62mm Plus ammo was difficult to find to order as it's currently under the 8X57JS caliber heading of the Safariammo.net website.

The GECO rifle ammunition prices were about half similar Norma ammunition prices, and the 20% off discount code made my order all that much more easy on my wallet. I submitted my order on July 31 not selecting expedited shipping as I wasn't in a hurry to receive my order. My order was delivered by UPS this afternoon.

Hopefully Safariammo.net will add more GECO centerfire rifle ammunition selections, like 7X57mm caliber in particular for my interests.
 
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Hoss Delgado

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Sounds top notch. Here is my favorite 7 × 57 MM Mauser ammo. Sadly , they don't make it anymore :( This ammunition is the property of my Father in Law . He owns a 7 × 57 MM custom on a pre 64 Winchester Model 70 action. I've been looking for some 173-5 grain fmj factory loaded Ammo for a while now ( the kind used by WDM Bell ) . No luck
IMG_20190703_010353.jpg
 

Mr. Zorg

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Prvi Partizan used to offer such a load in 7X57mm, spitzer style bullet, but it's either no longer being imported to the USA or no longer manufactured. I remember you seeking a similar load in .30-06 for your father.

If you contact Reed's Ammunition and Research in Oklahoma, they may be able to make such cartridges for you (and your father) to use. I've been happy with the products, prices, and service in my business dealings with them. They're like a small boutique ammo factory that specializes in unusual, niche, and obsolete cartridges.

https://shop.reedsammo.com/main.sc

I plan on sending some 7mm 155 grain Federal Edge component bullets to Reed's in order to have Reed's manufacture some 7X57mm & 7X64mm rounds loaded with that projectile for me (I don't reload). That's on a back burner for me now after receiving my order of GECO ammo from Safariammo.net though.
 
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Red Leg

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Sounds top notch. Here is my favorite 7 × 57 MM Mauser ammo. Sadly , they don't make it anymore :( This ammunition is the property of my Father in Law . He owns a 7 × 57 MM custom on a pre 64 Winchester Model 70 action. I've been looking for some 173-5 grain fmj factory loaded Ammo for a while now ( the kind used by WDM Bell ) . No luck View attachment 298286
The Winchester 7mm and 8mm mauser ammunition is, by European loading standards, pretty anemic. It was deliberately down-loaded by Winchester after WWII because of the abundance of military surplus weapons of questionable condition. And of course it is about as traditional a cup and core bullet as one can find. It turns the handy 7x57 into something rather like a howitzer with a questionable bullet. Even inexpensive brands like S&B and PP market a faster load with a far better bullet. I personally shoot Norma Oryx 156 and 172 gr bullets in my Rigby .275 (7x57) loaded by Hendershots. Both are sub-MOA. The heaviest Norma current factory load in 7x57 is the 156 Oryx, and frankly, it is so effective on any PG that the 172 is really not needed. They do load that bullet for the 7mm magnum. And of course the Oryx is one of the finest bullets produced today.

That said, I certainly would still use the old SP's. At close to moderate range, the heavy for caliber hunk of lead will put a hole through most things regardless how badly the bullet performs. But to really make a 7x57 sing, I would use a faster better bullet that still takes advantage of that wonderful BC.
 

Mr. Zorg

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My proposition : RWS, Sellier&Bellot orHornady.

I noticed the cardboard box my order was shipped in shows GECO, RWS, & Rottwel logos, so GECO is owned by the same company as RWS. Why don't you recommend GECO? Have you had bad experiences with GECO ammo? I ran a Search here and the only posts I saw were of sucessful hunts from forum members who mentioned using GECO ammo.


@Red Leg, did you mean take advantage of that wonderful SD instead of BC at the end of your post? I also have some 7mm 175 grain Nosler Accubond Long Range projectiles and 7mm 170 grain Norma Oryx projectiles but I want to give my 7mm 155 grain Federal Edge TLR projectiles a try first. All on the back burner for me now unless there's issues with the GECO ammo I purchased.
 

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I noticed the cardboard box my order was shipped in shows GECO, RWS, & Rottwel logos, so GECO is owned by the same company as RWS. Why don't you recommend GECO? Have you had bad experiences with GECO ammo? I ran a Search here and the only posts I saw were of sucessful hunts from forum members who mentioned using GECO ammo.


@Red Leg, did you mean take advantage of that wonderful SD instead of BC at the end of your post? I also have some 7mm 175 grain Nosler Accubond Long Range projectiles and 7mm 170 grain Norma Oryx projectiles but I want to give my 7mm 155 grain Federal Edge TLR projectiles a try first. All on the back burner for me now unless there's issues with the GECO ammo I purchased.
Yes indeed I did. Thanks for the catch. ;)

I am sure the GECO will be fine. It is more about the bullet in any case.
 

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The Winchester 7mm and 8mm mauser ammunition is, by European loading standards, pretty anemic. It was deliberately down-loaded by Winchester after WWII because of the abundance of military surplus weapons of questionable condition. And of course it is about as traditional a cup and core bullet as one can find. It turns the handy 7x57 into something rather like a howitzer with a questionable bullet. Even inexpensive brands like S&B and PP market a faster load with a far better bullet. I personally shoot Norma Oryx 156 and 172 gr bullets in my Rigby .275 (7x57) loaded by Hendershots. Both are sub-MOA. The heaviest Norma current factory load in 7x57 is the 156 Oryx, and frankly, it is so effective on any PG that the 172 is really not needed. They do load that bullet for the 7mm magnum. And of course the Oryx is one of the finest bullets produced today.

That said, I certainly would still use the old SP's. At close to moderate range, the heavy for caliber hunk of lead will put a hole through most things regardless how badly the bullet performs. But to really make a 7x57 sing, I would use a faster better bullet that still takes advantage of that wonderful BC.
Red leg , since you own a Rigby Mauser , l must ask : Is it true that some Rigby rifle were built on the BRNO ZKK Series actions ?
Also , thank you for informing me about the 172 grainers and 156 grainers :) I only have experience with the 140 grainers and 175 grainers :)
 

Hoss Delgado

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Prvi Partizan used to offer such a load in 7X57mm, spitzer style bullet, but it's either no longer being imported to the USA or no longer manufactured. I remember you seeking a similar load in .30-06 for your father.

If you contact Reed's Ammunition and Research in Oklahoma, they may be able to make such cartridges for you (and your father) to use. I've been happy with the products, prices, and service in my business dealings with them. They're like a small boutique ammo factory that specializes in unusual, niche, and obsolete cartridges.

https://shop.reedsammo.com/main.sc

I plan on sending some 7mm 155 grain Federal Edge component bullets to Reed's in order to have Reed's manufacture some 7X57mm & 7X64mm rounds loaded with that projectile for me (I don't reload). That's on a back burner for me now after receiving my order of GECO ammo from Safariammo.net though.
My father and l have a very bad habit. We must keep some full metal Jacket Rounds as a backup for our normal expanding rounds . Even though , in Practicality, we may never use them , it feels good to have them. In the case of my Dad , he is looking for new ammo to supplement his old stock of 168 grain .30-06 Armor piercing rounds . These were army surplus and he still has two crates left . Dad used them in an Enfield 1917 ( sporterized ) to hunt many Dangerous Indian Game in the late 1960s on his trips to India. He even used them on Gaur ( Indian Bison ) with mixed success. Apparently , the brain of a Gaur can easily be pin pointed if you draw two imaginary lines from the bottom of the bottom of the left ear to the right eye and the bottom of the right ear to the left eye. The brain is where the lines intersect. Dad said that the 168 grain AP .30-06 spitzer bullets would penetrate well on soft skinned game. But on Gaur , they would often deviate slightly from a straight course upon hitting their skulls , if the angling wasn't 100 % precise. If the Gaur didn't go down at the shot , Dad's Shikari ( Indian PH ) would use a big double rifle to dispatch the animal .
Dad is confident that a 220 grain .30-06 Round nosed fmj would penetrate their skulls more reliably. Of course , l keep reminding him that nowadays , you can't legally use anything short of a.375 on Dangerous game .
 

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I noticed the cardboard box my order was shipped in shows GECO, RWS, & Rottwel logos, so GECO is owned by the same company as RWS. Why don't you recommend GECO? Have you had bad experiences with GECO ammo? I ran a Search here and the only posts I saw were of sucessful hunts from forum members who mentioned using GECO ammo.


@Red Leg, did you mean take advantage of that wonderful SD instead of BC at the end of your post? I also have some 7mm 175 grain Nosler Accubond Long Range projectiles and 7mm 170 grain Norma Oryx projectiles but I want to give my 7mm 155 grain Federal Edge TLR projectiles a try first. All on the back burner for me now unless there's issues with the GECO ammo I purchased.
I have bad experience with GECO.
 

Red Leg

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Red leg , since you own a Rigby Mauser , l must ask : Is it true that some Rigby rifle were built on the BRNO ZKK Series actions ?
Also , thank you for informing me about the 172 grainers and 156 grainers :) I only have experience with the 140 grainers and 175 grainers :)
None of the modern Rigby production. It has a partnership with Mauser (they are part of the same corporate group) and Rigby uses current mauser production actions. This mirrors what the original company did with its original partnership with Peter Paul Mauser.

I say original company, because Rigby was bought by an American investment group in 1995 and moved production to the US. The guns they occasionally produced were abysmal, and Lord only knows what actions may have found their way into finished products.

Fortunately for the hunting world Rigby was acquired by new investors who moved the company back to the UK where it was then acquired by the Blaser Group in 2013 - reestablishing the traditional relationship with Mauser. Marc Newton has accomplished something of a miracle in a short period of time thanks to his ability and the resources of the parent corporation. The Rigby "Big Game" and "Highland Stalker" (mine) rifles have been very successful for a relatively expensive production rifle. Of course they will also build you a true "bespoke" rifle for quite a bit more. Reintroducing the "Rising Bite" first as a rifle and now as a shotgun is another bold move - though that clientele will be very select.

I would be very careful using any military surplus ammunition in a rifle that you care about - most of the old surplus 30-06 is corrosively primed and you need the correct solvents to deal with it. Secondly, AP works fairly well piercing the side of a jeep or truck - maybe even a light ballistic screen in front of a crew-served weapon, but it is not designed to drive through lots of animal. (It also was not designed with body armor in mind - normal military ball does that just as well). The ballistic shape almost guarantees tumbling or taking off at an angle in an animal's body. It is why no solids for hunting have a spitzer shape.
 

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None of the modern Rigby production. It has a partnership with Mauser (they are part of the same corporate group) and Rigby uses current mauser production actions. This mirrors what the original company did with its original partnership with Peter Paul Mauser.

I say original company, because Rigby was bought by an American investment group in 1995 and moved production to the US. The guns they occasionally produced were abysmal, and Lord only knows what actions may have found their way into finished products.

Fortunately for the hunting world Rigby was acquired by new investors who moved the company back to the UK where it was then acquired by the Blaser Group in 2013 - reestablishing the traditional relationship with Mauser. Marc Newton has accomplished something of a miracle in a short period of time thanks to his ability and the resources of the parent corporation. The Rigby "Big Game" and "Highland Stalker" (mine) rifles have been very successful for a relatively expensive production rifle. Of course they will also build you a true "bespoke" rifle for quite a bit more. Reintroducing the "Rising Bite" first as a rifle and now as a shotgun is another bold move - though that clientele will be very select.

I would be very careful using any military surplus ammunition in a rifle that you care about - most of the old surplus 30-06 is corrosively primed and you need the correct solvents to deal with it. Secondly, AP works fairly well piercing the side of a jeep or truck - maybe even a light ballistic screen in front of a crew-served weapon, but it is not designed to drive through lots of animal. (It also was not designed with body armor in mind - normal military ball does that just as well). The ballistic shape almost guarantees tumbling or taking off at an angle in an animal's body. It is why no solids for hunting have a spitzer shape.
Oh , Dad owns 3 rifles ... All in .30-06. one is a Winchester Model 70 . One is a Browning Safari II auto loader. The third is a sporterized Enfield 1917. That's the one he used to use the .30-06 AP rounds for. This was in the 1960s ( though he still has the ammo in two crates in his basement ) . Regarding your warning about the corrosive primers ... My dad cleans the barrels of his guns after every hunt / shoot . He served in Vietnam ( one tour) and had a chance to see how snipers clean their rifles professionally . But l personally wouldn't touch the stuff myself . I find it really interesting that Harry Manners , the Infamous Ivory Hunter had a similar experience with the .30-06 AP rounds when he was using them on Elephant in the 1950s. Check it out.
IMG_20190729_234147_01_01.jpg
 

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Oh , Dad owns 3 rifles ... All in .30-06. one is a Winchester Model 70 . One is a Browning Safari II auto loader. The third is a sporterized Enfield 1917. That's the one he used to use the .30-06 AP rounds for. This was in the 1960s ( though he still has the ammo in two crates in his basement ) . Regarding your warning about the corrosive primers ... My dad cleans the barrels of his guns after every hunt / shoot . He served in Vietnam ( one tour) and had a chance to see how snipers clean their rifles professionally . But l personally wouldn't touch the stuff myself . I find it really interesting that Harry Manners , the Infamous Ivory Hunter had a similar experience with the .30-06 AP rounds when he was using them on Elephant in the 1950s. Check it out.View attachment 298347
I have no idea what exact munition Manners may have been using - though this is the first time I have ever heard him referred to as "infamous."

And in whatever rifle an AP round is used on a game animal is irrelevant. If you will look at my information page, you will see that I do have fairly extensive professional experience with military munitions. AP rifle caliber rounds are designed to do one thing and one thing only and that is to pierce resistance quickly - as I indicated, that includes vehicle skin and the lightest forms of protective armor. Nothing in their development called for a lengthy straight line penetration through a softer medium - say an elephant's skull. They are a lousy choice to use on a game animal.

The only caution I would reiterate about corrosive primers is that their effect is largely immune to normal modern cleaning solvents regardless of what techniques one might use.
 
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Mr. Zorg

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@Red Leg, I still have a few bottles of vintage Outers Gunslick solvent around. When I recently inquired about a MSDS for it, Outers had a chemist respond none existed from back then, but I got him to tell me the primary active ingredient was nitrobenzene. Good to wear gloves and eliminate splash / spill potential when using, and glasses / goggles, and plenty of ventilation, but a very, very effective solvent. :E Peace:
 

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@Red Leg, I still have a few bottles of vintage Outers Gunslick solvent around. When I recently inquired about a MSDS for it, Outers had a chemist respond none existed from back then, but I got him to tell me the primary active ingredient was nitrobenzene. Good to wear gloves and eliminate splash / spill potential when using, and glasses / goggles, and plenty of ventilation, but a very, very effective solvent. :E Peace:
Yep. Don't believe anyone produces a ready made solution as far as I know. Anyway, I plan to use non-corrosive primers during the Zombie Apocalypse.
 

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I have no idea what exact munition Manners may have been using - though this is the first time I have ever heard him referred to as "infamous."

And in whatever rifle an AP round is used on a game animal is irrelevant. If you will look at my information page, you will see that I do have fairly extensive professional experience with military munitions. AP rifle caliber rounds are designed to do one thing and one thing only and that is to pierce resistance quickly - as I indicated, that includes vehicle skin and the lightest forms of protective armor. Nothing in their development called for a lengthy straight line penetration through a softer medium - say an elephant's skull. They are a lousy choice to use on a game animal.

The only caution I would reiterate about corrosive primers is that their effect is largely immune to normal modern cleaning solvents regardless of what techniques one might use.
Of course , you're right , Red Leg. You're one of the most experienced gentlemen in the field of fire arms that l know ( that's why l always take so many suggestions from you :) ) .
The .30-06 AP rounds definitely were unsuitable for hunting . But back in the 1950s and 1960s , they WERE cheap and widely available . Dad's favorite hunting rounds are Remington Core Lokt in the .30-06 .
Regarding Harry Manner , l find him notable in that he's one of the only two PHs ( the other being Wally Johnson ) who used a .375 HH Magnum as his only HEAVY back up rifle . Your typical PH of the 1950s and 1960s would pack a .470 NR Double . His book " kambaku " is a really interesting read which also does a good job at showing the Virtues and the limitations of the .375 HH Magnum.
 

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Yep. Don't believe anyone produces a ready made solution as far as I know. Anyway, I plan to use non-corrosive primers during the Zombie Apocalypse.

Agreed, but vintage bottles of such solvent are sold on eBay these days. It's still what I use, and all my father ever used, including my 6.5X52mm Carcano that we could only find milsurp FMJ ammo that was Berdan primed and undoubtably used corrosive primer compounds. That's what the "Nitro" in the solvent name was referring to according to the Outers chemist. I no longer purchase or fire such ammo, but vintage solvent is readily available for those who do, if they look around. Even my 7.62X25mm ammo is Winchester now, but I'm just old school when it comes to cleaning my firearms.
 

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any corrosive ammo in oz in the past rusted barrels due to salts produced by primers.
the best fix for this was to pour boiling water through the barrel in large quantities, which simply dissolved the salts.
after that you went to a solvent to attack the nitro fouling from powder.
back in those days people had little awareness of jacket fouling, but those who did used abrasives like "motty paste."
bruce.
 

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The book passage at this link sums up the effectiveness of nitrobenzene on nitrocellulose and pyroxylin very succinctly without using overly technical jargon.

https://books.google.com/books?id=S...BwgQ6AEwDnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=nitrocellulose and nitrobenzene&f=false

I don't know what the other ingredients are / were in vintage Outers Gunslick Solvent, all I can say is I never had a problem with excessive primer salts deposits in my Carcano, and we lived directly on the USGC in Corpus Christi, TX at that time in my life so plenty of atmospheric humidity. Maybe I simply didn't shoot enough such ammo since we could only get 3 to 5 rounds per box of milsurp ammo to properly chamber in my rifle. The .22LR rifle we had was what I used for practice.
 

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I did a little housekeeping in my shop and found some .500 Jeffery ammo that I no longer need. Superior Ammunition and Hendershots loaded them, along with AHR (American Hunting Rifles). Several Woodleigh/A-Square solids along with lead bullets in both 535g and 600g. Message me for any details.

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